Confirmed with Link: [TOR/OTT] Matt Murray (25% retention), a 3rd in 2023 and a 7th in 2024 for Future Considerations.

[Stephen]

Uh.....did you read it?

You understand that "the state of the goalie department" is much more than just a current, viable starting goalie option that was internally developed, right?

So let's get down to real details here on the goalie personnel at the end of 2021-22. Between the Leafs goalie coach and 9 goalies in the system:

-Steve Briere was hired as Leafs goalie coach July 20, 2015, three months after Nonis and Rick St. Croix were fired by Shanahan/Dubas/Hunter, and three days before Lou was hired July 23, 2015. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say Briere wasn't the product of Nonis/Lamoriello.

-Joseph Woll was drafted in 2016. By Lamoriello.

-Ian Scott was drafted in 2017. By Lou Lamoriello.

-Jack Campbell was acquired February 2020. By Kyle Dubas. I'm going to say Lou and Nonis didn't have much involvement here.

-Artur Akhtyamov drafted in 2020. By Kyle Dubas.

-Michael Hutchinson was acquired through free agency October 2020. No Lou. No Nonis.

-Erik Kallgren was signed August 2021. By Kyle Dubas. Again, I'm going to say Lou and Nonis didn't have much involvement here.

-Keith Petruzzelli signed Summer 2021 by the Marlies. Maybe he was a Dubas acquisition. Maybe it was the Marlies.

-Vyacheslav Peksa drafted in 2021. By Kyle Dubas.

-Petr Mrazek was signed Summer 2021. By Kyle Dubas.

So again, why are we talking about Lou Lamoriello or Dave Nonis?

 

[Stephen]

I think at that time it was the right move.
Sparks just came off a great AHL season and much younger where as McBackup was getting old.
Ofcourse the gamble didnt paid off and it proved to be the wrong decision, but I doubt any GMs won’t do what Dubas did. Maybe Dubas should had kept 3 goalies for a while and see how it went.

Sparks over McBackup was a logical asset management move that anyone would make in a video game but it missed the actual developmental/goalie department insight that could say "yeah this guy can play the way he does at the AHL level but it will get exposed at the NHL level."

 

[Gallagbi]

So again, why are we talking about Lou Lamoriello or Dave Nonis?

Because the specific comment was about an internally developed goalie option. Those take time, which has you looking back 4+ years, especially with the recent draft classes (2017 had some nice options though)

Again, that doesnt excuse the current state of our starting goaltending because there are many routes to solidify that werent well executed. It doesnt excuse the overall pipeline, or lack thereof either. Instead of understanding that, which is actually really simple, you've decided to make up some narrative that people are blaming previous GMs for the (full) current state of our goaltending

 

[Stephen]

Because the specific comment was about an internally developed goalie option. Those take time, which has you looking back 4+ years.

Again, that doesnt excuse the current state of our starting goaltending because there are many routes to solidify that werent well executed. It doesnt excuse the overall pipeline, or lack thereof either. Instead of understanding that, which is actually really simple, you've decided to make up some narrative that people are blaming previous GMs for the (full) current state of our goaltending

Well of course Nonis or Lamoriello could have bequeathed a young, homegrown franchise goalie to the Leafs during their time as GM.

But when Dubas has only drafted Zachary Bouthilier, Artur Akhtyamov, Vyacheslav Peksa and Denis Hildeby in 5 drafts and never really built a goalie department between 2018 and 2022, it's not exactly like the organization's priorities were in developing one either during his watch either. Don't bemoan the poor inheritance when you've put very limited resources into this area as well.

 

[Gallagbi]

Well of course Nonis or Lamoriello could have bequeathed a young, homegrown franchise goalie to the Leafs during their time as GM.

I dont understand why it was so painful to get to this obvious understanding of that post. It was well laid out and addressed initially.

Either way, i guess its good you see nobody is blaming Lou or Nonis for the current state of the Goaltending Department and nobody has suggestedthe Dubas Era hasnt begun

 

[Mess]

I absolutely hated the Murray acquisition but I'm willing to give it a chance to see how his rebuilt game (and hopefully better health) looks for the Leafs this season since so much is riding on it. Don't have the stomach to watch with the criticality of Year 5 Andersen. That said, to defend all the steps that led to the Leafs-Murray marriage feels like going too far out on a limb.

I like Murry as a person, so I will be cheering him on wholeheartedly that he finds his game and can avoid more serious injuries.

My anger is with the trade and return and that Leafs are forced to take this much risk and all that is on the GM.

My silver lining if this fails and ends in another disappointing season, then hopefully were in for a GM upgrade that has been long overdue.

 

[andora]

Stephen has a valid point though...without looking at details i believe all the top guys right now were dressing for nhl games 3 to 5 years within being drafted.. i think sorokin falls outside of this because it took him so long to come over

But to Stephens point a revamped system could have potentially put guys through already

 

[kb]

Stephen has a valid point though...without looking at details i believe all the top guys right now were dressing for nhl games 3 to 5 years within being drafted.. i think sorokin falls outside of this because it took him so long to come over

But to Stephens point a revamped system could have potentially put guys through already

How many GM's come in and fire everyone without any evaluation, or just cause? Just curious.

So no, he doesn't really have a valid point.

This may come as a surprise to many, but evaluation of anything or anyone.......takes time. And at the time, Andersen was still looking like a viable option, plus they had drafted Woll and Scott in the preceding 2 drafts, and the D was THE priority - a position who Lou and Nonis essentially ignored and did not address at all.

Sadly, revisionist history and hindsight gazing seem to be the only thing many posters on this board are blessed with.

 

[Stephen]

Stephen has a valid point though...without looking at details i believe all the top guys right now were dressing for nhl games 3 to 5 years within being drafted.. i think sorokin falls outside of this because it took him so long to come over

But to Stephens point a revamped system could have potentially put guys through already

I'm not focused on the specific results of a homegrown star goalie, but if we had a better goalie department we could have had better scouts in the field in the amateur and pro ranks, resulting in more informed UFA choices and trade target insights as well as better teachers to get more out of who we already had. Basically the personnel to say "goalies are not voodoo, here's what we can do with them."

 

[andora]

How many GM's come in and fire everyone without any evaluation, or just cause? Just curious.

So no, he doesn't really have a valid point.

This may come as a surprise to many, but evaluation of anything or anyone.......takes time. And at the time, Andersen was still looking like a viable option, plus they had drafted Woll and Scott in the preceding 2 drafts, and the D was THE priority - a position who Lou and Nonis essentially ignored and did not address at all.

Sadly, revisionist history and hindsight gazing seem to be the only thing many posters on this board are blessed with.

He worked for them since 2014 sheesh.. assistant to gm i think or advisor

He was watching everything for years before taking over.. so it wouldnt have been a shocking come in blind and fire everyone

Sorry for such an outlandish revisionist lazy pessimistic comment.. lord

 

[Stephen]

How many GM's come in and fire everyone without any evaluation, or just cause? Just curious.

So no, he doesn't really have a valid point.

This may come as a surprise to many, but evaluation of anything or anyone.......takes time. And at the time, Andersen was still looking like a viable option, plus they had drafted Woll and Scott in the preceding 2 drafts, and the D was THE priority - a position who Lou and Nonis essentially ignored and did not address at all.

Revisionist history and hindsight gazing seem to be the only thing many posters on this board are blessed with.

I do have a valid point. Leafs cleaned house and fired Nonis and Rick St. Croix in April 2015 and the Leafs braintrust of Shanahan, Dubas and Hunter hired Steve Briere 3 days before Lou Lamoriello came on board July 20th and 23rd.

So Briere was a completely known quantity from 2015 to 2018 while Dubas was AGM. Briere was bad I even made a post about the sorry state of the goalie department in 2021, a full year before the Leafs even did anything:

Leafs Goaltending Department

I thought I'd start this thread to spotlight an issue with the Toronto Maple Leafs that I've noticed for a long time but we've never really had one place to talk about it. Whatever you think of the Leafs goaltending strength at the NHL level, it seems like the organizational machinery behind...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Stephen]

I like Murry as a person, so I will be cheering him on wholeheartedly that he finds his game and can avoid more serious injuries.

My anger is with the trade and return and that Leafs are forced to take this much risk and all that is on the GM.

My silver lining if this fails and ends in another disappointing season, then hopefully were in for a GM upgrade that has been long overdue.

Yeah the position is critical enough that you want blue chip solutions instead of long bets every couple of years. Campbell was an extremely long reclamation bet that even paid off and even that wasn’t enough. I’m going to hold off on the regime change topic for now and hope we have a real solution between Murray and Samsonov. But man, these bets should be saved for positions like scoring wingers and second and third pairing defensemen where screw ups aren’t going to torpedo your season.

 

[leafsfan5]

Having a legit 1G ,1D gives Tampa a considerable advantage. Add in their work ethic and commitment and you end up with championships.

Yeah I don't think comparing our cap structure to Tampa is necessarily indicative that our plan works

Tampa used their 51 million to supply the following:
Elite centre (Point)
Best winger in hockey (Kucherov)
Elite producer (Stamkos)
Best defenseman in hockey (Hedman)
Low end 1D (McDonagh)
Best goalie in hockey (Vasi)

Toronto used their 51 million to supply the following:
Top 2 centre in hockey (Matthews)
Top 3 winger in hockey (Marner)
Top line winger (Nylander)
Top line centre (Tavares)
Low end 1D (Rielly)
Good 2D (Muzzin)

Tampa's money is spread better, with elite talent in every position. We have elite talent at one position (forward)

 

[Stamkos4life]

He worked for them since 2014 sheesh.. assistant to gm i think or advisor

He was watching everything for years before taking over.. so it wouldnt have been a shocking come in blind and fire everyone

Sorry for such an outlandish revisionist lazy pessimistic comment.. lord

That's kb for you.

Nothing is dubas' fault and everything dubas does is the best.

On the flip side everything is lous fault and nothing he does or did was good.

​

That's the face people make when the numbers presented to them go right over their head.

If you honestly think our goaltending position is upgraded then you are in for a quite the surprise.

But considering how often you and your fellow fan boys have been wrong, I'd be shocked if you weren't once again out to lunch.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

So let's get down to real details here on the goalie personnel at the end of 2021-22. Between the Leafs goalie coach and 9 goalies in the system:

-Steve Briere was hired as Leafs goalie coach July 20, 2015, three months after Nonis and Rick St. Croix were fired by Shanahan/Dubas/Hunter, and three days before Lou was hired July 23, 2015. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say Briere wasn't the product of Nonis/Lamoriello.

-Joseph Woll was drafted in 2016. By Lamoriello.

-Ian Scott was drafted in 2017. By Lou Lamoriello.

-Jack Campbell was acquired February 2020. By Kyle Dubas. I'm going to say Lou and Nonis didn't have much involvement here.

-Artur Akhtyamov drafted in 2020. By Kyle Dubas.

-Michael Hutchinson was acquired through free agency October 2020. No Lou. No Nonis.

-Erik Kallgren was signed August 2021. By Kyle Dubas. Again, I'm going to say Lou and Nonis didn't have much involvement here.

-Keith Petruzzelli signed Summer 2021 by the Marlies. Maybe he was a Dubas acquisition. Maybe it was the Marlies.

-Vyacheslav Peksa drafted in 2021. By Kyle Dubas.

-Petr Mrazek was signed Summer 2021. By Kyle Dubas.

So again, why are we talking about Lou Lamoriello or Dave Nonis?

And you left out the decision to let McIlhenny go in favour of Sparks. I'm not a Dubas hater but the one area I think he's been especially weak has been goaltending decisions.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That's the face people make when the numbers presented to them go right over their head.

If you honestly think our goaltending position is upgraded then you are in for a quite the surprise.

But considering how often you and your fellow fan boys have been wrong, I'd be shocked if you weren't once again out to lunch.

 

[andora]

 

[ToneDog]

Well of course Nonis or Lamoriello could have bequeathed a young, homegrown franchise goalie to the Leafs during their time as GM.

But when Dubas has only drafted Zachary Bouthilier, Artur Akhtyamov, Vyacheslav Peksa and Denis Hildeby in 5 drafts and never really built a goalie department between 2018 and 2022, it's not exactly like the organization's priorities were in developing one either during his watch either. Don't bemoan the poor inheritance when you've put very limited resources into this area as well.

Not jumping into your debate, but one of the first things Lou did when he got here is trade for a #1G and Andersen was solid while Lou was here. Once you have an established #1G, drafting another potential #1G is not at the top of your to-do list. Even so, as you pointed out, Lou drafted Woll and Scott.

Our goalie situation was never a tire tire under Lou IMO. It only started going south once the kid took over.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Not jumping into your debate, but one of the first things Lou did when he got here is trade for a #1G and Andersen was solid while Lou was here. Once you have an established #1G, drafting another potential #1G is not at the top of your to-do list. Even so, as you pointed out, Lou drafted Woll and Scott.

Our goalie situation was never a tire tire under Lou IMO. It only started going south once the kid took over.

Andersen like Campbell was sold for most of the time he was in Toronto. We didn't win around . We will continue to look for a playoff run with the Murray/ Samsonov tandom. Though we have never had a kid as GM. The youngest GM the Leafs have had was 30 when he got the job.

 

[ToneDog]

Andersen like Campbell was sold for most of the time he was in Toronto. We didn't win around . We will continue to look for a playoff run with the Murray/ Samsonov tandom. Though we have never had a kid as GM. The youngest GM the Leafs have had was 30 when he got the job.

Yup and he will be remembered for trading Courtnall for Kordic. Ouch.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Yup and he will be remembered for trading Courtnall for Kordic. Ouch.

He is remembered for that already.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Based on his inability. FYI, they played Boston in 2018.

He hadn't shown inability. FYI, they played Washington in 2017.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Because the specific comment was about an internally developed goalie option. Those take time, which has you looking back 4+ years, especially with the recent draft classes (2017 had some nice options though)

Again, that doesnt excuse the current state of our starting goaltending because there are many routes to solidify that werent well executed. It doesnt excuse the overall pipeline, or lack thereof either. Instead of understanding that, which is actually really simple, you've decided to make up some narrative that people are blaming previous GMs for the (full) current state of our goaltending

There is certainly a faction of people on this board who continue to bring up previous GMs and how they've crippled Dubas in the present.

 

[DarkKnight]

Sparks over McBackup was a logical asset management move that anyone would make in a video game but it missed the actual developmental/goalie department insight that could say "yeah this guy can play the way he does at the AHL level but it will get exposed at the NHL level."

It wasn’t even that logical, replace a known quantity as backup that had proved it, with an if that had no pedigree. Even if Sparks succeeded, he never became a starter, so he effectively tops out as McBackup best case, worst case, well we all saw it. Dubas fell in love with his AHL team and wanted to reward his guys, failing to see the potential pitfalls and also creating drama where none existed.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Do you understand how little Murray's GSAx +3.2 really impacts his actual numbers?

Murray's GSAx is his "actual numbers", and the most accurate measure of goaltending performance. You seem to have no trouble utilizing the stat when it suits you, but then you turn around and try to discredit the stat when it doesn't - using it incorrectly and making incorrect statements about it.

By trying to do these weird, pointless calculations translating GSAx to SV% and GAA, you're missing the entire point, that identical GAAs or SV%s can mean different things about a goaltender, depending on the quality of defense and shots being allowed in front. There was a 15 goal difference in GSAx between the two player seasons you attempted to compare, which is significant.

Thats a lot of words to avoid answering my question

I found it hilarious that he edited out your question after you said this.