Confirmed with Link: [TOR/OTT] Matt Murray (25% retention), a 3rd in 2023 and a 7th in 2024 for Future Considerations.

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They’ve never been a contender, in my book.

They could win the division this year, however points will likely be lower because the lower teams are little more competitive.
Until they get a REAL goalie as the backbone of the franchise I tend to agree because I believe "Defense wins Championships" and your Goalie is the captain and last line of defense and often needs to be MVP worthy.

My biggest fear extends to Matthews our true MVP, and if he is chasing playoff success, and this is Leafs management's high risk plan, then it better not fail, because then AM moving on and not signing on long-term increases in odds annually as his contract ends with endless playoff disappointments.

This is year #5 of the GM after inheriting a 105 point (then record setting team), and he is putting his faith in a contract/salary dump goalie in Murray, who played his way onto NHL waivers went unclaimed by 31 teams, and appeared in AHL games last year, all based on a familiarity in the OHL with the SOO, before GM, Coach and player were even NHL employed. Dubas even mentioned that past connection in his PC after the trade, This doesn't even factor in Murray missed 38 games last year to injury including the last 28 games of the season and all potential playoff games thereafter with a serious concussion, that would have made him unavailable during the NHL playoffs, and no use to playoff teams.

To make matters worse its a battle of Ontario Div arch rival Ottawa that is willing to retain salary, and toss in a couple of picks to make sure Murray stays in the Atlantic Div as they attempt to close the gap in their own div and battle for the same playoff spots, while they then run out an upgrade in net to Cam Talbot who just backstopped Minny to a 113 point season.

If Ottawa believed Murray was any good, and the answer to their own future success based on his own historical success years prior, then they would keep him themselves, and or at least attempt to trade him outside the Atlantic Div, and preferably even their own Conference as most often is the preferred outcome, so a former player can't come back to burn them. Is nobody else seeing and asking why? .. I can't help but think this has the potential to feel like a Trojan Horse strategy once played on city of Troy, where opposition feel their offering our Leafs a "Boat Anchor" to slow them down, and not a "Life Ring" to save them with Leafs accepting this so called gift horse unknowingly.

This seems like such a rick risk move on timing and potential fallout. That might even result in a new management team and entire franchise course correction. IMO
 
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He was drafted 3rd overall. I don't care. Clearly we traded for a guy who has Stanley Cup pedigree and a golievwho was a first round pick in 2015 ( regardless if you care.)
Murray and Samsonov likely the tandom for the Leafs.

What also doesn't matter is whether you like it or not.

Meh.

You're okay with the Leafs losing every year. I'm not.

Have fun with that.
 
In terms of drafting goalies, I think the Leafs had been doing that, it just so happened they have not unearth any good goalies get. To me, I think it had more to do with the development part. Maybe if they are willing to go all platoon goalies for the Marlies in order to get them games might help. Having better coaches will help and I hope Sandford can do it since the Nucks have a pretty good goalies development system over the past 10 years.
Ian Scott and Jo Woll are good prospects and just too bad Scott got injuries problem.
 
While I agree with you, mostly. A cup contender should not have "potential" in net. They should have a for sure thing.
TB feels like the only contender with "safe goaltending" if you look at the top 5-7 IMO.

We're high risk in net, but 2-3 other contenders feel just as risky (Edm, Col, Car w/ Freds injuries)
 
TB feels like the only contender with "safe goaltending" if you look at the top 5-7 IMO.

We're high risk in net, but 2-3 other contenders feel just as risky (Edm, Col, Car w/ Freds injuries)
Well you can't even say for sure that Bobrovsky is good enough goaltender, that can carry Florida to the Cup. Even though his paid 10 million, but his been mostly bad in the playoffs. It can also be seen in reverse, that did Kuemper made Avalanche a contender or weren't they contender even with previous goaltenders. I'd say they were contending last few seasons at least three seasons.

Roster wise we should be contenders even with these goaltenders, but argument is more about can we be real contenders, since we haven't won a round. I think that's the question. Also were we contenders with Andersen and now since his gone are we not. Or how we think about that, since if we see Carolina as contender with Andersen, but he wasn't anything special here during playoffs time.
 
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How about the "target" was someone we drafted & developed with a 1st or 2nd round pick, like 6-7 years ago?
Samsonov was the highest drafted goalie in that timeframe FYI. I think you think drafting goalies high is more beneficial than it actually is.

We probably should have put more emphasis on drafting goalies in general between 2007-2015 (3 goalies in 9 years), but we can't go back in time, so I don't know what you expect us to do about that now. We've actually drafted a decent number since then (6 goalies in 7 years).
 
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Meh. Typical offseason excuses made by fans, for this franchise.

How about the "target" was someone we drafted & developed with a 1st or 2nd round pick, like 6-7 years ago? I know Goalies can be a crapshoot at times but why can't we EVER place any emphasis on them, and try to draft one with serious pedigree? We did with Rask and he ended up being a great Goalie.

Constantly focusing on offence all the time, and almost ignoring the Goalie position clearly has gotten us nowhere. Sure we'll outscore our shitty goaltending problems this upcoming regular season. But when things gets tough next post-season, we've got nothing. Once again.

So you are saying in hindsight we should have gone full "needle in the haystack" but thats just too massive a gamble when Toronto has hits pretty good on their first/second rounders.

2014-2018 goalies drafted in the first/second rounds and our picks

2014: McDonald, Demko, Nedeljkovic, Vanecek, Halverson
Our actual picks: Nylander
2015: Samsonov, Blackwood
Our actual picks: Marner, Dermott, Bracco
2016: Hart, Parsons, Gustavsson, Fitzpatrick
Our actual picks: Matthews, Korshkov, Grundstrom
2017: Oettinger, Luukkonen
Our actual picks: Liljegren, Rasanen
2018: Lindbom, Rodrigue
Our actual picks: Sandin, Durzi

We signed one of the few NHL goalies on the list and the only two big gambles we could have made for guys who havnt done it yet but are thought of maybe elite would be to have draft Demko over Nylander(who is seen as a great pick) and Oettinger over Liljegren (who is seen as a great pick). 2 out of 15 goalies (7.5%) and 0% have any hardware.

I'd love them to draft and develop a goalie but it's insanely hard to get that lucky.....to both have a pick available and get a goalie that turns into something. A massive gamble to be sure. I'd love a Potvin but getting a Cujo/Belfour is more realistic.
 
He was drafted 3rd overall. I don't care. Clearly we traded for a guy who has Stanley Cup pedigree and a golievwho was a first round pick in 2015 ( regardless if you care.)
Murray and Samsonov likely the tandom for the Leafs.

What also doesn't matter is whether you like it or not.
Jack Campbell was drafted first round @ #11 overall in his draft year by Dallas and even higher than Samsonov @ #21.

Did Jack Campbell's draft position pay off?

FWIW: Matt Murray was a 3rd round pick #83 overall, but he was lucky to be on the same winning Pens teams as MA Fleury who was drafted #1 OA in his draft class.
 
all based on a familiarity in the OHL with the SOO
We didn't get Murray because he played with the Soo.
To make matters worse its a battle of Ontario Div arch rival Ottawa that is willing to retain salary, and toss in a couple of picks to make sure Murray stays in the Atlantic Div as they attempt to close the gap in their own div and battle for the same playoff spots, while they then run out an upgrade in net to Cam Talbot
Talbot was worse than Murray last year, FYI, and Ottawa adding picks and retaining had nothing to do with making sure he stayed in-division.
 
.
Andersen was a top goalie for the first 2.5 years here and possibly even the team MVP for the majority of it. Were there even any upgrades around then? ....and are we forgetting about the injuries?

The last 3 seasons, Andersen was hurt or playing hurt half the time, Mrazek basically had the entire season wiped out with a bad groin and Campbell lost the last half of last season with an injury/playing with an injury and all of this coincided with one of the worst situations any GM has ever been put in with the stupid cap being put in place after all the big deals were signed in anticipation of it exploding higher with revenues soaring.

A majority of the board wanted to sign Campbell as fast as possible to a larger deal than he got before he melted down the 2nd half last season remember?

It's hard to find goaltending that A) is solid and clutch under pressure, B) wants to come to Toronto and C) doesnt want stupid money to do so as the cap killed ours(and everyones) situation. Outside of the maybe 5 teams confident in their goaltending, every other team out there is rolling the dice with the least resources in history to do it.

The Leafs chose to go with proven playoff performance in Murray with hopes of him putting his injury issues behind him (on a much better team) and a high pedigree guy who had real struggles with covid coming off a good playoffs as well. Is it a gamble? yes........but so is literally every other option out there.

Lets wait and see how it looks before condemning it is all I ask. We had bottom 5 goaltending the 2nd half of the season (and maybe I'm being generous calling it that with how good the team was in front of it). Give the new guys a chance.

Who did you want BTW?....and which guys did you think we missed out on?

I know some folks wanted Grubauer (the worst goalie in hockey last season).

It's a tough position to get a read on, thats for sure.
Andersen didnt perform well in the playoffs with Anaheim and carried it over to the Leafs.
 
Until they get a REAL goalie as the backbone of the franchise I tend to agree because I believe "Defense wins Championships" and your Goalie is the captain and last line of defense and often needs to be MVP worthy.

My biggest fear extends to Matthews our true MVP, and if he is chasing playoff success, and this is Leafs management's high risk plan, then it better not fail, because then AM moving on and not signing on long-term increases in odds annually as his contract ends with endless playoff disappointments.

This is year #5 of the GM after inheriting a 105 point (then record setting team), and he is putting his faith in a contract/salary dump goalie in Murray, who played his way onto NHL waivers went unclaimed by 31 teams, and appeared in AHL games last year, all based on a familiarity in the OHL with the SOO, before GM, Coach and player were even NHL employed. Dubas even mentioned that past connection in his PC after the trade, This doesn't even factor in Murray missed 38 games last year to injury including the last 28 games of the season and all potential playoff games thereafter with a serious concussion, that would have made him unavailable during the NHL playoffs, and no use to playoff teams.

To make matters worse its a battle of Ontario Div arch rival Ottawa that is willing to retain salary, and toss in a couple of picks to make sure Murray stays in the Atlantic Div as they attempt to close the gap in their own div and battle for the same playoff spots, while they then run out an upgrade in net to Cam Talbot who just backstopped Minny to a 113 point season.

If Ottawa believed Murray was any good, and the answer to their own future success based on his own historical success years prior, then they would keep him themselves, and or at least attempt to trade him outside the Atlantic Div, and preferably even their own Conference as most often is the preferred outcome, so a former player can't come back to burn them. Is nobody else seeing and asking why? .. I can't help but think this has the potential to feel like a Trojan Horse strategy once played on city of Troy, where opposition feel their offering our Leafs a "Boat Anchor" to slow them down, and not a "Life Ring" to save them with Leafs accepting this so called gift horse unknowingly.

This seems like such a rick risk move on timing and potential fallout. That might even result in a new management team and entire franchise course correction. IMO
They were never contenders because not everyone did what it takes to win in the playoffs, or they didn‘t care enough to put in the commitment.
 
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TOP 15 goalies in Goals Against Average

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TOP 15 goalies in Save Percentage

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TOP 15 goalies in Wins

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TOP 15 goalies in Goals Saved Above Expected (GSAx)


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Wait...........where are Murray & Samsanov in these lists?
Sorry those List and rankings of all the key goalie statistics only shows the BEST at their positions.

If you were looking for Leafs new goalies among them, then unfortunately you would be out of luck there. :wg:

Leafs were not shopping in the high-end of the goalie pool for upgrades in net.

Which I suppose some would find odd, since its been playoff goaltending deemed the reason for the round #1 losses primarily, and thus the goalie carousel in Toronto.

PS.. You could at least find former Leafs on that list like Freddy Andersen, and now Jack Campbell, but they fell short, and what Leafs set out to hopefully upgrade on.
 
This reads almost exactly like last offseason when we had a Campbell/Mrazek tandem. Same guys saying the same stuff.
 
Which ones are working in the Lumber section at Home Depot? Samsonov is not one of them. As for Murray, he is still a two time Cup winner. Only two goalies have won a Cup this decade.
Which ones did Murray have a quality goalie tandem to lean on in the playoffs?

That goalie was pretty good too.. which one is loved in Pittsburg?

DBECEA12-FB26-4D59-A988-92943929F60C.jpeg
 
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We didn't get Murray because he played with the Soo.

Talbot was worse than Murray last year, FYI, and Ottawa adding picks and retaining had nothing to do with making sure he stayed in-division.
We didn’t get TALBOT because he didn’t play for the Soo
 
The Overall TEAM stats from 2021-22 should be even more alarming.


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TOP 15 - * Teams * in Goals Against Average / game

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TOP 15 - * Teams * in Save Percentage

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TOP 15 - * Teams * in Total Goals Against

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So the Leafs began the off-season search from a position of weakness being in the bottom 1/2 of the league in all the defensive categories for goalies on their teams overall.

Neither Matt Murray's 3.05 GA/G and .904 SV% nor Ilya Samsonv GA/g 3.02 GA/g or SV% .899 would move the Leafs team UP in these team categories, they would in fact move them DOWN.

Taking a bottom 1/2 team in TORONTO already weak defensively, and replacing them with even lower personal goalie stats seems counterintuitive to expecting better and improvement. :help: :help:
 
Six years into Matthews' and Marner's careers, I expect MUCH better planning from my team, than two huge question marks in goal, who've had bad numbers for years now. Brutal.
You will complain incessantly, but you will not go out on a limb and put your name on who they should get.

Leafs fans at their finest....

Name who this available star is to solve the issue. I will keep asking that until you answer.......which you wont, because you have been asked and ignore that repeatedly.

So I ask again, who is this goalie who will solve all the Leafs problems???
 
In terms of drafting goalies, I think the Leafs had been doing that, it just so happened they have not unearth any good goalies get. To me, I think it had more to do with the development part. Maybe if they are willing to go all platoon goalies for the Marlies in order to get them games might help. Having better coaches will help and I hope Sandford can do it since the Nucks have a pretty good goalies development system over the past 10 years.
Ian Scott and Jo Woll are good prospects and just too bad Scott got injuries problem.

I think the problem has been that the Leafs goalie department hasn't been that sophisticated over the past decade or so. Not sure who the decision makers are, but they seem to consistently bring on those big athletic street hockey goalies who struggle to read the play over a very long stretch of time (Pogge, Gustavsson, Rynnas, Sparks, even Reimer to some degree), and then factor in subpar Rick St. Croix/Steve Briere coaching and you have poor results. Will be interesting to see how Samsonov and even Hildeby fit into this lineage.

In terms of the Russian duo, I'm intrigued but also not sure if two random kids from Kazan will ultimately give us our own Sorokin level Russian goalie. Our Russian scouting has been overhyped and somewhat mediocre with the number of empty wallets, but that's another topic.
 
Someone who shall not be named said..."Talbot was worse than Murray last year"

Little fact check.....
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]
Logo of the Minnesota WildMinnesota Wild
[/TD]
[TD]NHL[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]49[/TD]
[TD]2.76[/TD]
[TD]0.911[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Logo of the Ottawa SenatorsOttawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]NHL[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]3.05[/TD]
[TD]0.906[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
I expect theyre using GSAx given the difference in quality of teams/style of play

Murray was +.163 Gsax/60
Talbot was -0.121 GsaX/60.
 
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I think the problem has been that the Leafs goalie department hasn't been that sophisticated over the past decade or so. Not sure who the decision makers are, but they seem to consistently bring on those big athletic street hockey goalies who struggle to read the play over a very long stretch of time (Pogge, Gustavsson, Rynnas, Sparks, even Reimer to some degree), and then factor in subpar Rick St. Croix/Steve Briere coaching and you have poor results. Will be interesting to see how Samsonov and even Hildeby fit into this lineage.

In terms of the Russian duo, I'm intrigued but also not sure if two random kids from Kazan will ultimately give us our own Sorokin level Russian goalie. Our Russian scouting has been overhyped and somewhat mediocre with the number of empty wallets, but that's another topic.
Completely agree, even Rask is a big goalie.
I think drafting big goalie is a safer bet than a small athletic one but I really question the goaltending scouting and developing department when Reimer is the only goalie it produces over the past 10-15 years. That’s an absolute horrible record.
Hopefully Woll, Kally, those Russians and Samsonov will change that trend.
 
This off-season it wouldn't matter who the leafs got and how because those that constantly whine and complain and hate would still do it, the homers would find a way to see the positive side in who we got no matter what..... And we would have the same thing being talked about just in a different way. Lol
I for one waiting till hockey starts. Not much else to talk about until then anyways
 
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