Confirmed with Link: [TOR/OTT] Matt Murray (25% retention), a 3rd in 2023 and a 7th in 2024 for Future Considerations.

[mikeyz]

Maybe your comment is going over my head but I'm not sure I understand lol

Because there’s a lot of Dubas defenders in here.

 

[ACC1224]

Could you link a quote from the Toronto Maple Leafs organization that they said Murray/samsonov is better than Campbell/Mrazek please to support this claim.

Wouldn't paying to remove one and letting the other walk while bringing in the other two support that claim?

 

[TheDoldrums]

Isn't it ironic that in an effort to justify what might be the worse goalie tandem in the NHL of Murray/Samsonov, there is an attack on Jack Campbell and why he wasn't the answer.

While I agree Campbell may not have been the answer, isn't Dubas the one who brought him on board in the first place?

The Soo Greyhounds connection got him overly excited (seemingly again with Matt Murray) and now that experiment failed, the usual suspects are now using a failed experiment by wonder-boy to justify this disaster waiting to happen.

It wasn't a failed experiment. Campbell was a solid goalie overall on a low AAV while he was here. They just didn't want to commit to the guy for 5 years.

 

[Havoc]

Just wait 5 minutes

lmao ! I'm actually a fan of this trade but this was hilarious.

It's like a bat signal if you ever need to do a summon. Just type out something you think was done wrong.

 

[Gabriel426]

The more I read the stats provided by you guys, the more I think Murray is similar to Felix the Cat in that, both had great playoffs for two years and that’s about it. Diff is Murray won Cups and the Cat didn’t.
Really hope that’s the not case

 

[TheDoldrums]

Wouldn't paying to remove one and letting the other walk while bringing in the other two support that claim?

Murray and Samsonov are cheaper and signed for a combined 3 years. Campbell and Mrazek are more expensive and signed for a combined 7 years.

Its possible they believe they've downgraded a bit in net while still finding that preferable considering the costs and commitment.

 

[saltming]

Wouldn't paying to remove one and letting the other walk while bringing in the other two support that claim?

It can be viewed that way but there are a lot of parts to it, like value and personal choices.
Maybe the Leafs feel the goalies are equal but 5 years was too long and would screw their cap when m and m needed re-signing? Or internal pressure demanded a change or maybe Campbell did not want to be here and play in the circus? Who knows is my point.
Either way the Leafs are not spreading propaganda as the post I replied to suggested.

 

[Menzinger]

Isn't it ironic that in an effort to justify what might be the worse goalie tandem in the NHL of Murray/Samsonov, there is an attack on Jack Campbell and why he wasn't the answer.

While I agree Campbell may not have been the answer, isn't Dubas the one who brought him on board in the first place?

The Soo Greyhounds connection got him overly excited (seemingly again with Matt Murray) and now that experiment failed, the usual suspects are now using a failed experiment by wonder-boy to justify this disaster waiting to happen.

I think it's absolutely fair to point to management inability to solve the goaltending problem since Andersen fell off the deep end as probably the biggest fault. They're the ones who make the decisions ect.

Imo Campbell had shown enough he was worth taking a gamble on for a season. The player just didn't live up to the expectations. I don't necessarily think pointing out something that's empirically true - that he was bad for far longer than he was good last season - as an attack on the guy

I also don't think it's fair to write Murray off either. Campbell for example didn't ecome close to being a 1B until he was older than Murray is at present

 

[notbias]

Isn't it ironic that in an effort to justify what might be the worse goalie tandem in the NHL of Murray/Samsonov, there is an attack on Jack Campbell and why he wasn't the answer.

While I agree Campbell may not have been the answer, isn't Dubas the one who brought him on board in the first place?

The Soo Greyhounds connection got him overly excited (seemingly again with Matt Murray) and now that experiment failed, the usual suspects are now using a failed experiment by wonder-boy to justify this disaster waiting to happen.

Why does EVERYONE push a Soo connection, can one person explain why we didn't protect McCann if we must get all the Soo players?

Campbell has shown flashes of greatness, he was worth the risk this year, but he was terrible for over half a season this year, not willing to take a gamble on that for 5x5. Murray/Samsonov is high risk, high reward, considering the options and term of some goalies that moved this year, this is probably close to the best we could have done.

The tandem is not ideal, but not as bad as you are making it out to bed, the defending champs might have the worst tandem yet and are considered favourites again.

 

[Mess]

Isn't it ironic that in an effort to justify what might be the worse goalie tandem in the NHL of Murray/Samsonov, there is an attack on Jack Campbell and why he wasn't the answer.

While I agree Campbell may not have been the answer, isn't Dubas the one who brought him on board in the first place?

The Soo Greyhounds connection got him overly excited (seemingly again with Matt Murray) and now that experiment failed, the usual suspects are now using a failed experiment by wonder-boy to justify this disaster waiting to happen.

We all acknowledge that this is a high risk / high reward move, with Leafs really sticking their necks out with this move.

Perhaps it will finally force some accountability for the results, as both GM and Coach need playoff results or their jobs might be in jeopardy.

So you can understand why they have gone back to their Soo roots and the familiarity with Murray dating back to when they were all together in the OHL. It was the same reasons they believed Campbell was the answer previously.

Even TSN is accepting Leafs tandem is among the bottom tiers now.

Grading every NHL team’s goaltending depth​

Toronto: On the plus side, recently acquired Matt Murray played better for the Ottawa Senators down the stretch last season. But for an otherwise elite Maple Leafs lineup, staking your team’s Stanley Cup chances to large gambles on a volatile player like Murray, and Ilya Samsonov (who was shelled last year) is an extraordinary risk. Toronto’s cap situation and a very limited supply of available goaltenders may have forced GM Kyle Dubas’ hand, but this is a scary group to bet on.

 

[rocketman588]

Why does EVERYONE push a Soo connection, can one person explain why we didn't protect McCann if we must get all the Soo players?

Campbell has shown flashes of greatness, he was worth the risk this year, but he was terrible for over half a season this year, not willing to take a gamble on that for 5x5. Murray/Samsonov is high risk, high reward, considering the options and term of some goalies that moved this year, this is probably close to the best we could have done.

The tandem is not ideal, but not as bad as you are making it out to bed, the defending champs might have the worst tandem yet and are considered favourites again.

I don't know maybe it's because every time we get stuck we either sign someone from the Soo or someone from the company Dubas represented as an agent.
Just on the roster in the last 2 years. Why he decided to one of the best pick ups from there go is anyone's guess.

Soo
Muzzin
Bunting
Simmonds
Ritchie
Jumbo
Jack
Campbell
Sandin


Represented by agency he worked for (uptown sports)
Clifford
Gio

That's 10 dudes on a 23 man roster over two years

 

[notbias]

I don't know maybe it's because every time we get stuck we either sign someone from the Soo or someone from the company Dubas represented as an agent.
Just on the roster in the last 2 years. Why he decided to one of the best pick ups from there go is anyone's guess.

Soo
Muzzin
Bunting
Simmonds
Ritchie
Jumbo
Jack
Campbell
Sandin


Represented by agency he worked for (uptown sports)
Clifford
Gio

That's 10 dudes on a 23 man roster over two years

Which of those players would you not want to sign? I can see only 2.

You also included drafted players and players signed for the AHL, so you should probably have those in your 23 man total.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

If Dubas and the Leafs had experienced any playoff success his affinity for former Greyhounds would be seen as just your typical GM quirk. Of course that hasn't happened so it's viewed as him having something closer to tunnel vision. Of all the former Soo players he's signed only Jumbo and Ritchie are the ones who I'd say I wish we'd avoided. And even then Ritchie was barely a mistake considering we got Lyubishkin for him to fill a role.

Of course if Murray absolutely shits the bed for us then that'll the most egregious example of Soo bias that costs the team massively. Otherwise I don't have much of a problem with who he's acquired who used to play for the Greyhounds.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

If Dubas and the Leafs had experienced any playoff success his affinity for former Greyhounds would be seen as just your typical GM quirk. Of course that hasn't happened so it's viewed as him having something closer to tunnel vision. Of all the former Soo players he's signed only Jumbo and Ritchie are the ones who I'd say I wish we'd avoided. And even then Ritchie was barely a mistake considering we got Lyubishkin for him to fill a role.

Of course if Murray absolutely shits the bed for us then that'll the most egregious example of Soo bias that costs the team massively. Otherwise I don't have much of a problem with who he's acquired who used to play for the Greyhounds.

So far I don't think there is a single Soo move which would not have been made without the Soo connection. Bunting, for example, would still be a local kid and he fit the "tough to play against" mantra to a tee: skilled, but knows how to play in tight. Ritchie would have been a local kid who was a former 10th overall pick and had that physicality that fans so desperately wanted. Murray is a 2 time Cup Champ with more proven success than any goalie we've had for like 2 decades.

My least favorites are Thornton, Simmonds, and Clifford... we don't need old scrubs in the lineup, but it is not like it was motivated by a Soo connection as much as an obsession for hard nosed veterans (Foligno falls in this category too and there is no Soo connection).

He would have added a lot of those guys (or similar type guys) even without the Soo connection, so people really need to get over it. Every GM does similar stuff, and are often more egregious about it too.

 

[saltming]

What about comparing goalies that played on the same inferior teams.

2021-22 Season

Anton Forsberg - OTT ... 46 games 22 wins 17 losses 4 OTL 2 SO with 2.82 GAA & 0.917 sv% and GSAx of +8.5 (16th best)
vs
Matt Murray - OTT ....... 20 games 5 wins 12 losses 2 OTL 0 SO with 3.05 GAA & 0.906 sv% and GSAx of +3.2 (28th overall)

Why would anyone think Murray is the better choice here and when both played on the same team and why would anyone use Murray +3.2 GSAx as something special vs +8.5 and played double the games?

So what is Murray's excuse verses his own teammate?

Ilya Samsonov on a 100 point Washington playoff team.

2021-22 .. Washington ... 44 games 23 wins 12 losses 5 OTL 0 SO with 3.02 GAA & 0.896 sv% and GSAx of -12.1 (107 overall)

Samsonov GAA wasn't much different then Murray's poor season even worse sv% and his goals saved above expected at -12 among the worst marks in the NHL.
vs
Jack Campbell ... 49 games 31 wins 9 losses 6 OTL 5 SO with 2.64 GAA & 0.914 with a GSAx -2.3.

So your argument now is we should have acquired Forsberg instead of Murray? It's hard to keep track of what you're saying because initially you were saying Murray was worse than Campbell. And for the record I'm not expecting a reply (even though saying this may cause a cursory reply) because you have not replied to my last 4 or so quotes I have tagged you in

 

[Martin Skoula]

We all acknowledge that this is a high risk / high reward move, with Leafs really sticking their necks out with this move.

Perhaps it will finally force some accountability for the results, as both GM and Coach need playoff results or their jobs might be in jeopardy.

So you can understand why they have gone back to their Soo roots and the familiarity with Murray dating back to when they were all together in the OHL. It was the same reasons they believed Campbell was the answer previously.

Even TSN is accepting Leafs tandem is among the bottom tiers now.

Grading every NHL team’s goaltending depth​

View attachment 579637

Toronto: On the plus side, recently acquired Matt Murray played better for the Ottawa Senators down the stretch last season. But for an otherwise elite Maple Leafs lineup, staking your team’s Stanley Cup chances to large gambles on a volatile player like Murray, and Ilya Samsonov (who was shelled last year) is an extraordinary risk. Toronto’s cap situation and a very limited supply of available goaltenders may have forced GM Kyle Dubas’ hand, but this is a scary group to bet on.

If it's so scary why aren't you taking the under on the 86 point bet?

 

[ACC1224]

If it's so scary why aren't you taking the under on the 86 point bet?

He’s quoting TSN, it’s right there in the post.

IMO scary may not be the word but anyone that isn’t concerned is lying to themselves

 

[Oscar Peterson]

He’s quoting TSN, it’s right there in the post.

IMO scary may not be the word but anyone that isn’t concerned is lying to themselves

The 86 point thing came from Mess for taking Murray + Samsonov + Kallgren’s win/loss records, and he claimed that if those were our goalies last year our team would have only had 86 points. I’m sure I don’t need to explain to you why that is such a stupid and pointless analysis and I can see why it’s annoying when posters quote him and point out how illogical it is only to get completely ignored lol.

But yeah, I mean I agree it’s more than fair to feel concerned about this tandem. I don’t feel confident in them, but at this point all we can really do is wait to see how they play next year, no point in making up BS arguments to make the situation seem extra negative.

 

[ACC1224]

The 86 point thing came from Mess for taking Murray + Samsonov + Kallgren’s win/loss records, and he claimed that if those were our goalies last year our team would have only had 86 points. I’m sure I don’t need to explain to you why that is such a stupid and pointless analysis and I can see why it’s annoying when posters quote him and point out how illogical it is only to get completely ignored lol.

But yeah, I mean I agree it’s more than fair to feel concerned about this tandem. I don’t feel confident in them, but at this point all we can really do is wait to see how they play next year, no point in making up BS arguments to make the situation seem extra negative.

I didn’t see any point total in the post I quoted but I’m sure it’s just his way of balancing out the BS arguments and excuses for all the failure.
They could run a Sparks/Hutch tandem and get 100 points. Regular season totals have become hollow.

 

[DarkKnight]

Here’s our summer goalie predicament in a nutshell. Lost our starter and turfed our useless backup. Desperate to fill holes, over paid for a former glory tender, then took a flyer on a head case with upside. When the dust settles, the Leafs are left with a maybe and a could, but at least we have two, which increases the odds. He’s gambling big time, the only comfort, he put down two markers so at least we don’t rely on just one. Now roll the dice and hope it works out, then his devoted followers can claim “genius”.

 

[Zybalto]

Really interesting looking at numbers from Dec. 1st to the end of the year (around 60ish games).

Top 10 teams in terms of points % with team defensive rating (xGA) and team save% rankings:

1. Colorado: 12th best D, 3rd best team save%
2. Florida: 16th best D, 17th best team save%
3. Carolina: 4th best D, 6th best team save%
4. Toronto: 3rd best D, 27th best team save%
5. St. Louis: 23rd best D, 9th best team save%
5. Minny: 11th best D, 14th best team save%
7. Boston: 1st best D, 7th best team save%
8. Tampa: 5th best D, 10th best team save%
9. Calgary: 2nd best D, 11th best team save%
10. NYR: 9th best D, 1st best team save%

Not too many surprises really with Florida run and gunning their meh D and goaltending, the Rangers having the best goaltending in the league, etc.. but the absolute insanity that are Toronto's numbers really stands out.

The 4th best record with a 27th ranked save% is just crazy but I think most would expect the D to have been part of that issue but it was actually the opposite. The goaltending was that bad in spite of one of the best defensive teams in the league. That 60-game stretch may have been statistically one of the worst stretches of goaltending we've ever seen......and the guy starting most of those games (with an .896 over that stretch)) made the all-star team and got a 5x5 contract. (what a crazy world)

Still not understanding the level of hate for these changes. The new guys have to be better no? Murray certainly wasnt my first choice but I did like the Samsonov pickup coming off a decent playoffs.

I think the thing that keeps me optimistic about 28 year old Murray is that he has 2 rings and more clutch performances in big games than literally all of Toronto's goaltending combined for almost 2 decades (Belfour the last clutch guy we've had in net really).

Enough whining already and wait and see what we have here folks.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Here’s our summer goalie predicament in a nutshell. Lost our starter and turfed our useless backup. Desperate to fill holes, over paid for a former glory tender, then took a flyer on a head case with upside. When the dust settles, the Leafs are left with a maybe and a could, but at least we have two, which increases the odds. He’s gambling big time, the only comfort, he put down two markers so at least we don’t rely on just one. Now roll the dice and hope it works out, then his devoted followers can claim “genius”.

That does not sound like anything the Leafs have done this summer.

 

[DarkKnight]

Why even bother lol. My bad.

 

[Leaf Fans]

If you’re sober it does though. Mmmm kool aid, always refreshing.

Sober up and have a look at it.

 

[ACC1224]

Here’s our summer goalie predicament in a nutshell. Lost our starter and turfed our useless backup. Desperate to fill holes, over paid for a former glory tender, then took a flyer on a head case with upside. When the dust settles, the Leafs are left with a maybe and a could, but at least we have two, which increases the odds. He’s gambling big time, the only comfort, he put down two markers so at least we don’t rely on just one. Now roll the dice and hope it works out, then his devoted followers can claim “genius”.

Pretty much sums it up