Confirmed with Link: [TOR/OTT] Matt Murray (25% retention), a 3rd in 2023 and a 7th in 2024 for Future Considerations.

[OptimusReim]

How is the team in a “much worse position”? They just recorded a record, never been done before by a Leaf team 115 points. As for the negatives “greatly” exceeding the positives, how in the hell would they have finished with the fourth best record in the league if that was the case? Give your head a shake man. Your anti-Dubas bias is clouding your judgment.

They had a good regular season, (115 points with 3 point games so that record need some context), but yes a good regular season.

The team Dubas inherited had all our core players on entry level deals, tons of cap space, depth and a promising future. Since then he got taken to the cleaners on his ELC for above mentioned core players, wasted the cap space on Tavares, traded 1st round picks to clean up his mess or trade for rentals for a playoff run that never materialized.

We currently have the same core players that he inherited (no new ones), an aging and albatross contract in Tavares, soft as butter depth and probably the worse goalie tandem in the NHL.

Oh and haven't won a single playoff round and our team (at least on paper) is worse this year than maybe any other year since he took over the team.

This team is not built to win in the playoffs and the playoff results speak for themselves.

 

[vpasla1]

They had a good regular season, (115 points with 3 point games so that record need some context), but yes a good regular season.

Other teams also had three point games, and there hasn't being any ties in the last 16 years, so not sure what context is needed.

Regardless, they were 4th in the league in points.

 

[ULF_55]

This team is in a much worse position now than when Dubas took over as GM, we have had no playoff success in his tenure and the negatives greatly exceed the positives during his reign.

I wonder how his fanboys defend every single move and I seriously questions where their allegiance lies, the only explanation is those posters are either his friends, family or paid Dubas shills.

Leafs have had no playoff success since Pat Quinn.

We can lump all the GM's together since that time.
I'm sure some people still think ? is a good GM.

 

[ACC1224]

Leafs have had no playoff success since Pat Quinn.

We can lump all the GM's together since that time.
I'm sure some people still think ? is a good GM.

Some GMs were under different mandates during different seasons. If a GM is tasked to get the first overall and he does wouldn’t that be considered successful?

 

[ULF_55]

Some GMs were under different mandates during different seasons. If a GM is tasked to get the first overall and he does wouldn’t that be considered successful?

I think you have to take into account why they are that bad in the first place?

I don't think teams go from playoffs to worst in the league without some long term help.

Burke-Nonis regime created the 4th. and 1st. overall picks.

So does that make Burke and Nonis good GMs?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Good goaltenders tend to be always good.

That's not true. Goaltending performances and results fluctuate quite a bit. There are a handful of elite goalies that can at least fluctuate within positive results, but they're incredibly rare and even they offer no guarantees and can drop off quite suddenly.

I wouldn't count out Markstrom or anyone who's proven they can steal games or win rounds in the playoffs.

Markstrom certainly stole a series this playoffs........ for his opponent.

Those 13 spots could be something

Those 13 spots are rather negligible. Both picks represented a similar tier of prospect. It didn't really change the quality of the prospect being received.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Leafs have had no playoff success since Pat Quinn.

We can lump all the GM's together since that time.
I'm sure some people still think ? is a good GM.

No previous GM has had the talent that Dubas was gifted

 

[ULF_55]

No previous GM has had the talent that Dubas was gifted

You would think with this talent they should have won at least a round.

Now that falls on Murray's shoulders.
Previous 2 goaltenders could not step up in the playoffs.
I do think Leafs against Montreal was the no-show by their 2 highest paid players in that series though.
Inexcusable to come out of that series with 1 goal between marner and Matthews.

Maybe Samsonov and Murray will pull a Vegas Golden Knights routine and play to prove people wrong.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Murray has some upside that both player and team need to work hard to unlock in the upcoming season but that's really going out on a limb there.
I would argue that Campbell at his worst was as bad or worse as any stretch Murray had but Murray never had the elite first half Campbell put together to get himself to the All-Star Game.

It's not going out on a limb. Campbell played more games, but for the season overall, Murray (+3.2 GSAx) performed better in his sample than Campbell (-2.3 GSAx) did in his. Campbell had higher highs but also lower lows.

Every draft between 2000 and 2016 had an hidden gem drafted between 25 and 37. So while the average player taken in that range is whatever in aggregate, the trade down does represent the Leafs giving up that opportunity to snag a player that can make a fairly significant impact.

Some of those are quite a stretch as "hidden gems", some of those were much stronger drafts in that range, and just because we can pick out a prospect with hindsight that ended up having some level of success in a given range, that doesn't mean that that prospect would be picked. As prospects, they would be part of a similar tier of prospects with similar value.

People tend to forget...

Campbell's success in Toronto was rewarded when, on January 13, 2022, he was selected for the 2022 NHL All-Star Game, his first NHL all star game, along with teammate Auston Matthews. At the time of his selection to the game, Campbell had a record of 18–5–3 with a .935 save percentage (second in the league for goaltenders) and a 2.02 goals-against average as well as a league leading +18 goals saved above expected.

vs

Murray assigned to AHL by Senators

The 27-year-old goalie, who was placed on waivers Saturday, is in the second season of a four-year, $25 million contract ($6.25 million average annual value) he signed with the Senators on Oct. 9, 2020, two days after he was acquired in a trade with the Pittsburgh Penguins. Murray is 0-5-0 with a 3.26 goals-against average and .890 save percentage in six games this season after going 10-13-1 with a 3.38 GAA and .893 save percentage in 27 games (25 starts) last season.

"We certainly got to play better in front of him as well so we got to take some blame there, but this is about getting his game back," Senators coach D.J. Smith said Saturday.

Now do the rest of the season.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

That's not true. Goaltending performances and results fluctuate quite a bit. There are a handful of elite goalies that can at least fluctuate within positive results, but they're incredibly rare and even they offer no guarantees and can drop off quite suddenly.

Markstrom certainly stole a series this playoffs........ for his opponent.

Those 13 spots are rather negligible. Both picks represented a similar tier of prospect. It didn't really change the quality of the prospect being received.

No. Tuuka Rask was a good goalie. No he never won a cup as the Bruins starter, but he was considered a solid goalie. He was never the reason the Bruins lost a series. That was just a casual example of good goalies always being good.

If we go by your logic then Murray doesn't stand a chance. It's strange because you're defending Dubas to your last breath. Especially on the subject of Murray.

 

[81Leafs50]

IT does not take 120 pages on here to see Jack Campbell was not good enough in Toronto.

GOALS SAVED ABOVE EXPECTED!

 

[Dekes For Days]

No. Tuuka Rask was a good goalie. No he never won a cup as the Bruins starter, but he was considered a solid goalie. He was never the reason the Bruins lost a series. That was just a casual example of good goalies always being good.

Yes, Rask was a very good goalie. One of the best through his era. And even he fluctuated quite a bit, from -2.1 GSAx to +19.2 GSAx, and everywhere in between. And like pretty much every goalie, he had good series and bad series.

If we go by your logic then Murray doesn't stand a chance.

What logic do you think suggests that?

 

[Dekes For Days]

They had a good regular season, (115 points with 3 point games so that record need some context), but yes a good regular season.

Context is good. Context like the fact that it's the 15th highest point total put up by any team in the entire cap era - which featured 3 point games throughout.

The team Dubas inherited had all our core players on entry level deals, tons of cap space, depth and a promising future.

That's pretty misleading. He inherited a team that was maxed out on the cap, had countless players coming off their ELCs and looking for significant raises either immediately or within a year, had depth that was immediately leaving for nothing in UFA, had multiple cap anchors, and a depleted prospect pool.

Since then he got taken to the cleaners on his ELC for above mentioned core players, wasted the cap space on Tavares, traded 1st round picks to clean up his mess or trade for rentals

More accurately, he signed his core players to contracts consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts, added an elite player in UFA, traded a 1st round pick to clean up Lou's mess, and has actually avoided spending big on rentals more than most teams in his position.

We currently have the same core players that he inherited (no new ones) an aging and albatross contract in Tavares, soft as butter depth and probably the worse goalie tandem in the NHL.

We currently have one of the best teams in the league. Both Tavares and Muzzin are part of our core (and one could argue Brodie too), Tavares isn't an albatross contract, our depth isn't "soft as butter", and as much as you may personally dislike Murray/Samsonov, our goalie tandem is definitely not the worst in the NHL.

 

[notbias]

No previous GM has had the talent that Dubas was gifted

so the players he was gifted can't get it done in the playoffs, but he is so lucky because he was gifted those players? Weird

 

[ShaneFalco]

so the players he was gifted can't get it done in the playoffs, but he is so lucky because he was gifted those players? Weird

He can't build around them but you already knew what I was saying. Weird

 

[Notsince67]

IT does not take 120 pages on here to see Jack Campbell was not good enough in Toronto.

GOALS SAVED ABOVE EXPECTED!


View attachment 578750

Some people don't like this stat but I think its telling.
There was some awesome suppression of HD shots by Matthews and he had a higher GA stat than the eye and statistical tests merited. That was because of poor goaltending period.

 

[OptimusReim]

Context is good. Context like the fact that it's the 15th highest point total put up by any team in the entire cap era - which featured 3 point games throughout.

That's pretty misleading. He inherited a team that was maxed out on the cap, had countless players coming off their ELCs and looking for significant raises either immediately or within a year, had depth that was immediately leaving for nothing in UFA, had multiple cap anchors, and a depleted prospect pool.

More accurately, he signed his core players to contracts consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts, added an elite player in UFA, traded a 1st round pick to clean up Lou's mess, and has actually avoided spending big on rentals more than most teams in his position.

We currently have one of the best teams in the league. Both Tavares and Muzzin are part of our core (and one could argue Brodie too), Tavares isn't an albatross contract, our depth isn't "soft as butter", and as much as you may personally dislike Murray/Samsonov, our goalie tandem is definitely not the worst in the NHL.

LOL

Why didn't you quote and rebuttal the part mentioning our playoff success?

Oh yea because you can't say anything about the fact our soft as butter team can't win when it counts.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

No previous GM has had the talent that Dubas was gifted

Exactly. No GM before him had this level of talent AND freedom. Burke had the freedom to do what he wanted (mostly because he never wanted to do a rebuild in the first place) but he had nowhere near the talent to work with.

To say Dubas has f***ed up is an understatement, he took the best situation one can imagine and turned it into an embarrassment.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Exactly. No GM before him had this level of talent AND freedom. Burke had the freedom to do what he wanted (mostly because he never wanted to do a rebuild in the first place) but he had nowhere near the talent to work with.

To say Dubas has f***ed up is an understatement, he took the best situation one can imagine and turned it into an embarrassment.

Can you elaborate a bit? He kept the core in place, so it's hard to see how it can be both a blessing to inherit that group of players but also an indictment of him that he screwed up massively by keeping them together

I also think you're overestimating how good the situation was. The Leafs had no defense, a shit prospect pool, and all his best players were due substantial salary increases

 

[CanadasTeam]

How is the team in a “much worse position”? They just recorded a record, never been done before by a Leaf team 115 points. As for the negatives “greatly” exceeding the positives, how in the hell would they have finished with the fourth best record in the league if that was the case? Give your head a shake man. Your anti-Dubas bias is clouding your judgment.

We have a great regular season team no doubt. Wish they raised banners for regular season wins, but sadly they'd still only be runner-ups. Even that is still not good enough.

so the players he was gifted can't get it done in the playoffs, but he is so lucky because he was gifted those players? Weird

In terms of gifts, if you're gifted a Ferrari but hire a bozo to drive it in the tracks, it is highly unlikely you win any race, period.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Why didn't you quote and rebuttal the part mentioning our playoff success?

Because there's really nothing left to say about it. Yes, we've lost in the playoffs. No, it's not for the reasons you seem to think, and doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Can you elaborate a bit? He kept the core in place, so it's hard to see how it can be both a blessing to inherit that group of players but also an indictment of him that he screwed up massively by keeping them together

I also think you're overestimating how good the situation was. The Leafs had no defense, a shit prospect pool, and all his best players were due substantial salary increases

Previous GMs also had the luxury of an ever increasing cap, while Dubas had only one off-season of cap increase before it froze.

 

[andora]

Can you elaborate a bit? He kept the core in place, so it's hard to see how it can be both a blessing to inherit that group of players but also an indictment of him that he screwed up massively by keeping them together

I also think you're overestimating how good the situation was. The Leafs had no defense, a shit prospect pool, and all his best players were due substantial salary increases

I think that is part of why the fans that didnt like the tavares signing and dollar amount didnt like the tavares signing and dollar amount

 

[Antropovsky]

LOL

Why didn't you quote and rebuttal the part mentioning our playoff success?

Oh yea because you can't say anything about the fact our soft as butter team can't win when it counts.

That's dfd MO.... he (presumeably) replies to messages and deletes parts he doesn't have answers to. Personally I think deleting portions of posts should be banned because it removes "context".... I dont know of anyone who does it more than he does though.

 

[notbias]

In terms of gifts, if you're gifted a Ferrari but hire a bozo to drive it in the tracks, it is highly unlikely you win any race, period.

Who are you even referring to? Babcock? Lou? Dubas? Keefe? They all had the same star players.