Confirmed Signing with Link: [TOR] Marner re-signs (6 years, $10.893M AAV) Part III

[v4karuna]

Why are we worried about tax advantages?

Exactly!

I don't get it either. The best argument I've seen against tax advantage was made by another poster - what if a player signs for a lower number based on tax advantage, only to be traded to a region with a higher tax, what's their protection for this scenario?

 

[Torontoborn]

I think we need a new thread called "Taxes"

 

[Holymakinaw]

Okay ENOUGH with the Marner talk. He signed!!!

We all get it........y'all hate the Leafs and want to dump on anything they do, ever. But he signed!!

We know he lives in a market where the taxes are high and others play in markets that are different. But he signed!!

He's overpaid, but the Leafs have to do that to keep their players. And he signed!!

He's better than your team's player. And he signed!!!

Let's move on.

 

[WillTheThrill]

I feel a lot better about this deal after seeing Tkachuk’s. If Marner took a bridge it would probably be in the 8-8.5 range. I’d rather just pay him big money now and get him for 6 years.

 

[Yackiberg8]

You said all players are "unanimous" about the tax advantage.

O'neill called it "crap" and nodded and laughed when it was called "garbage".

So you are wrong.

The end.

We have tax experts claiming there is no tax advantage. We have players calling it "crap".

Jeez... sure sounds more complicated than what you make it out to be.

How many times can you repeat the same thing over and over? The reason O'Neill says the tax argument is crap is not because he thinks there is no advantage, it is because he thinks Marner should want to play in Toronto and should take a reasonable deal to play there.

You are inferring many aspects of the conversation and then stating them as fact.

The other huge factor is here is that these are fed up Leaf fans who were tired of the situation. Not analysts (or former players) thinking rationally.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

How many times can you repeat the same thing over and over? The reason O'Neill says the tax argument is crap is not because he thinks there is no advantage, it is because he thinks Marner should want to play in Toronto and should take a reasonable deal to play there.

You are inferring many aspects of the conversation and then stating them as fact.

The other huge factor is here is that these are fed up Leaf fans who were tired of the situation. Not analysts (or former players) thinking rationally.

Nope. Hayes said that the tax argument is “garbage” and it always has been. O’neill is VERY clearly there laughing and nodding his head. McLennon (former player) is saying “right, right” when Hayes says it, then adds to the topic.

You and Clark34 can’t use your usual rhetoric. We can all see O’neills And Mclennon’s reactions with our own eyes. Your only hope here is to try and erase the video from the internet.

 

[Yackiberg8]

Nope. Hayes said that the tax argument is “garbage” and it always has been. O’neill is VERY clearly there laughing and nodding his head. McLennon (former player) is saying “right, right” when Hayes says it, then adds to the topic.

You and Clark34 can’t use your usual rhetoric. We can all see O’neills And Mclennon’s reactions with our own eyes. Your only hope here is to try and erase the video from the internet.

Lol okay buddy, if you think their actions are definitively telling you that they do not believe there are tax benefits of playing in Tampa then you are entitled to your opinion. I disagree.

Seems pretty clear to me that they are unhappy Leaf fans saying that Marner is being unreasonable for wanting a bigger contract than the reigning MVP and that any differences in taxes isn't a good enough reason for Marner to have a higher contract against the cap. In no way are they saying that each players take home pay isn't affected by different taxes.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Lol okay buddy, if you think their actions are definitively telling you that they do not believe there are tax benefits of playing in Tampa then you are entitled to your opinion. I disagree.

Seems pretty clear to me that they are unhappy Leaf fans saying that Marner is being unreasonable for wanting a bigger contract than the reigning MVP and that any differences in taxes isn't a good enough reason for Marner to have a higher contract against the cap. In no way are they saying that each players take home pay isn't affected by different taxes.

Hayes specifically said that the tax argument is “garbage”. O’neill laughed and nodded, McLennan said “right, right”.

There isn’t two ways to view this. It’s not debatable.

Imagine this in reverse? If Hayes said “Tampa has a HUGE tax advantage”, and O’neill nodded, and McLennan said “right, right”. Imagine I tried saying (lol) “it’s unclear where they stand”. What a joke.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

Lol I come in here and wonder why there are a bunch of angry replies with no quote and realize that it's a user I ignored.

 

[Yackiberg8]

Hayes specifically said that the tax argument is “garbage”. O’neill laughed and nodded, McLennan said “right, right”.

There isn’t two ways to view this. It’s not debatable.

Imagine this in reverse? If Hayes said “Tampa has a HUGE tax advantage”, and O’neill nodded, and McLennan said “right, right”. Imagine I tried saying (lol) “it’s unclear where they stand”. What a joke.

It appears you are someone who is unable to think critically. That's fine. Enjoy the season.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Exactly!

I don't get it either. The best argument I've seen against tax advantage was made by another poster - what if a player signs for a lower number based on tax advantage, only to be traded to a region with a higher tax, what's their protection for this scenario?

For TB, the trade off was a lower avv for a NTC/NMC. We didnt just get them on lower AVV we also gave them job security in one place so that we cant just trade them. Its risky for us because they could suck after the big pay day. It happens. People dont talk about this though.

Really with Taxes we have an advantage but it's not anything to whine about. As many have pointed out teams have ways to help players recoup that money and the cap saved isnt much to cry over. People just want to complain.

 

[Space umpire]

So I've read pretty much EVERY post in the 1st 2 "Marner Signs" thread and about 10 pages on this one. After following the 1st 2 (only posting 1 time) I actually went back and read nearly every post the 1st and last "Marner RFA" threads. Here is what I learned.
In the RFA threads Leaf fans were convinced he would sign for between 8 and 9.5 and they were not talking about a bridge deal. ... Many (non leaf) fans felt that throwing money needlessly at Matthews drove up the price and a realistic value was likely just over 10.6 that it would be just a bit over the 4 1sts dollar amount. Leaf fans posted in droves about how it won't go that high and if it did then they didn't want his selfish ass and he should be traded or let him sign an offer sheet.
In the last RFA thread the same person who said 9m was his max on a long term deal (he isn't a center, he isn't a scorer, he needed Tavares to inflate his numbers) actually posted that he wouldn't get Matthews money he could see 10m or more.

The funniest part is most of the non leaf fans who posted numbers were within about 600k. Most of the Leaf fans who posted numbers were off by about 1.5 million per.

So I'm humored now to see the proverbial circling of the wagons by Leaf fans defending both the Marner and Matthews over payments.

 

[Legion34]

Hayes specifically said that the tax argument is “garbage”. O’neill laughed and nodded, McLennan said “right, right”.

There isn’t two ways to view this. It’s not debatable.

Imagine this in reverse? If Hayes said “Tampa has a HUGE tax advantage”, and O’neill nodded, and McLennan said “right, right”. Imagine I tried saying (lol) “it’s unclear where they stand”. What a joke.

Imagine? Pierre Lebrun did it. He said it was an incredible advantage. Remember. When mclennan stood beside him and agreed.

Except he is an actual insider. Just like methot is an actual player who came out and said how much it affected his pay

Email cap friendly. We are waiting

Boeser. 3 X 5.85
Tkachuk. 3. 7

Point. 3 x 6.75....

Hmmmmm

 

[Legion34]

For TB, the trade off was a lower avv for a NTC/NMC. We didnt just get them on lower AVV we also gave them job security in one place so that we cant just trade them. Its risky for us because they could suck after the big pay day. It happens. People dont talk about this though.

Really with Taxes we have an advantage but it's not anything to whine about. As many have pointed out teams have ways to help players recoup that money and the cap saved isnt much to cry over. People just want to complain.

Ya it’s about 700k per 5 million. So about 1.3-1.5on 10. Ballpark.

Kinda important?

 

[Hunter368]

Ya it’s about 700k per 5 million. So about 1.3-1.5on 10. Ballpark.

Kinda important?

What's the difference in endorsements for a young star like AM or JT or Marner in Toronto vs Tampa Bay?

I hear on HFB players want to sign in Toronto partly b/c of the huge endorsements that get there vs any where else......especially many US cities where hockey is backpage news. I've heard some claim JT could be making as much as 6-7 million per year in endorsements.....which is more then 50% of his actual official salary.

Is that kinda important also or completely false thus we should ignore all future claims regarding it?

 

[Legion34]

What's the difference in endorsements for a young star like AM or JT or Marner in Toronto vs Tampa Bay?

I hear on HFB players want to sign in Toronto partly b/c of the huge endorsements that get there vs any where else......especially many US cities where hockey is backpage news. I've heard some claim JT could be making as much as 6-7 million per year in endorsements.....which is more then 50% of his actual official salary.

Is that kinda important also or completely false thus we should ignore all future claims regarding it?

Well whatever money they were to make would cost them 15% more in taxes.

There is no endorsement cap. There is no salary cap as a natural state of affairs in the free market system. All teams and players have equal rights to secure endorsements.

Teams do not have equal rights and abilities to offer tax savings.

If the leafs were allowed to offer to pay taxes for their players. Would that be fair?

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

What's the difference in endorsements for a young star like AM or JT or Marner in Toronto vs Tampa Bay?

I hear on HFB players want to sign in Toronto partly b/c of the huge endorsements that get there vs any where else......especially many US cities where hockey is backpage news. I've heard some claim JT could be making as much as 6-7 million per year in endorsements.....which is more then 50% of his actual official salary.

Is that kinda important also or completely false thus we should ignore all future claims regarding it?

IIUC the most value in endorsements are national level, not regional. Regional endorsements I don’t think net players all that much but I’d be interested to see numbers.

 

[Spargon]

Lol I come in here and wonder why there are a bunch of angry replies with no quote and realize that it's a user I ignored.

I wish everyone would do it. I know some find is funny to toy with the morons but if we all just ignored those certain few posters every Leaf thread won't devolve into 5+ parts of the same drivel being shot down over and over.

The guy hates Toronto and is absolutely delusional about his opinions making up wild accusations with no bearing in reality and offers absolutely nothing to any conversation regardless how patient guys like Dekes for Days are, he's a waste of everyone time.

 

[LeafSteel]

So I've read pretty much EVERY post in the 1st 2 "Marner Signs" thread and about 10 pages on this one. After following the 1st 2 (only posting 1 time) I actually went back and read nearly every post the 1st and last "Marner RFA" threads. Here is what I learned.
In the RFA threads Leaf fans were convinced he would sign for between 8 and 9.5 and they were not talking about a bridge deal. ... Many (non leaf) fans felt that throwing money needlessly at Matthews drove up the price and a realistic value was likely just over 10.6 that it would be just a bit over the 4 1sts dollar amount. Leaf fans posted in droves about how it won't go that high and if it did then they didn't want his selfish ass and he should be traded or let him sign an offer sheet.
In the last RFA thread the same person who said 9m was his max on a long term deal (he isn't a center, he isn't a scorer, he needed Tavares to inflate his numbers) actually posted that he wouldn't get Matthews money he could see 10m or more.

The funniest part is most of the non leaf fans who posted numbers were within about 600k. Most of the Leaf fans who posted numbers were off by about 1.5 million per.

So I'm humored now to see the proverbial circling of the wagons by Leaf fans defending both the Marner and Matthews over payments.

So your analysis is all non-Leafs fans were hoping for a Marner overpay while all Leafs fans were hoping for a fair value or hometown underpay?

In the end, the result was an overpay but with term...

How profound.

Since you summarized so succinctly with absolutely NO agenda it would be terrific if to move on to a new and different topic for non Leaf fans to put down.

It’s really quite old and stale.....

 

[Hunter368]

Well whatever money they were to make would cost them 15% more in taxes.

There is no endorsement cap. There is no salary cap as a natural state of affairs in the free market system. All teams and players have equal rights to secure endorsements.

Teams do not have equal rights and abilities to offer tax savings.

If the leafs were allowed to offer to pay taxes for their players. Would that be fair?

So are you saying the fact that Leaf star players can earn a significant amount of income in endorsements (potentially an extra 50%+ of their extra salary/cap hit with the team) gives the Leafs a significant advantage over other teams signing players or not?

 

[Legion34]

So are you saying the fact that Leaf star players can earn a significant amount of income in endorsements (potentially an extra 50%+ of their extra salary/cap hit with the team) gives the Leafs a significant advantage over other teams signing players or not?

In terms of a significant systemic unfair advantage that regardless of success or effort can change.

No it’s not an advantage. It’s a consequence of success.

Is Tampa at an advantage 5 on 5 vs Ottawa because they are better? In my mind no.

If Ottawa was allowed to play 5 on 4 against Tampa. Ottawa would be at an advantage. Even if Tampa is better even WITH the advantages

 

[Yackiberg8]

So I've read pretty much EVERY post in the 1st 2 "Marner Signs" thread and about 10 pages on this one. After following the 1st 2 (only posting 1 time) I actually went back and read nearly every post the 1st and last "Marner RFA" threads. Here is what I learned.
In the RFA threads Leaf fans were convinced he would sign for between 8 and 9.5 and they were not talking about a bridge deal. ... Many (non leaf) fans felt that throwing money needlessly at Matthews drove up the price and a realistic value was likely just over 10.6 that it would be just a bit over the 4 1sts dollar amount. Leaf fans posted in droves about how it won't go that high and if it did then they didn't want his selfish ass and he should be traded or let him sign an offer sheet.
In the last RFA thread the same person who said 9m was his max on a long term deal (he isn't a center, he isn't a scorer, he needed Tavares to inflate his numbers) actually posted that he wouldn't get Matthews money he could see 10m or more.

The funniest part is most of the non leaf fans who posted numbers were within about 600k. Most of the Leaf fans who posted numbers were off by about 1.5 million per.

So I'm humored now to see the proverbial circling of the wagons by Leaf fans defending both the Marner and Matthews over payments.

Is this true or are you just writing it to try and make the Leaf posters on here look bad? Because I also read through most of the Marner threads and most Leaf fans were saying around $10.5 on a long term deal from the beginning. Sure some Leaf fans said lower and some non-Leaf fans said lower but this was the majority.

Just another Leaf hater with another non-sensical post or are you just seeing what you want to see?

 

[Hunter368]

In terms of a significant systemic unfair advantage that regardless of success or effort can change.

No it’s not an advantage. It’s a consequence of success.

Is Tampa at an advantage 5 on 5 vs Ottawa because they are better? In my mind no.

If Ottawa was allowed to play 5 on 4 against Tampa. Ottawa would be at an advantage. Even if Tampa is better even WITH the advantages

It has nothing to do with team success & you know that, you’re not being honest in your opinion b/c you know it’s hypocritical to complain about a tax benefit that some teams get when your team gets an even bigger advantage with endorsements. IMO

I’ll leave at that, I’ve made my point that you tried to dance around and I foresee you continuing to dance around b/c you have no defence to the point. No interest in a circular debate with a person who isn’t willing to have a honest conversation/sincere about it.

Cheers

 

[Legion34]

It has nothing to do with team success & you know that, you’re not being honest in your opinion b/c you know it’s hypocritical to complain about a tax benefit that some teams get when your team gets an even bigger advantage with endorsements. IMO

I’ll leave at that, I’ve made my point that you tried to dance around and I foresee you continuing to dance around b/c you have no defence to the point. No interest in a circular debate with a person who isn’t willing to have a honest conversation/sincere about it.

Cheers

Huh? It has everything to do with team success?
The leafs are the most popular team. That’s how they get advantages. That is success. It’s a business.

There is no weather cap. Endorsement cap.
There is a salary cap. Which is clearly affected
By tax rates. That are a systemic advantage that NO team can get around Or improve.

That’s the point. That’s the only point. That’s a clear and honest and sincere conversation.

 

[Brunomics]

Here is what I'm wondering up in Canada when it comes to endorsements. Are all these Leaf players getting national endorsements or just regional to the city? If it's just local stuff yea it's great money but no where close to 50%.

National endorsements are reserved for guys like Trout, Lebron, ect. None of the leafs are on that type of legendary level.

I'm sure CCM and Mattress firm give a nice paycheck but who is really paying millions for these guys to endorse their products?