Confirmed Signing with Link: [TOR] Marner re-signs (6 years, $10.893M AAV) Part III

[Legion34]

correct me if im wrong... but their pay taxation depends on where they earned it... thats why tampa has more takehome becausetheir home games are played in tampa... not everygame though so the difference isnt as much as people are stating

There is a calculator. It takes all this into account.

The difference is exactly what people are stating. Because it is what the pros say.....

I don’t know why people refuse to believe professionals?

“Sure CN tower is tall.... but not nearly as tall as architects and engineers say it is”

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

only a 'fool' thinks varying tax rates makes for an even playing field.

Varying tax rates make an uneven playing field as you suggest. But players don't pay personal tax rates as posted. So as I suggested, only a fool believe those figures and base the "playing field" on those personal tax rates.

 

[filinski77]

?????

If your principle residence is Toronto. You get taxed at 53%.

If it is Tampa you get taxed at 39.


There is no way around it. Taxes are taxes. Ontario and montreal are the worst places for taxes.

Amateur accountants on the internet don’t over ride pros.

Regardless marner seems to have gotten paid about a million more Than point even WITH tax advantages taken into account

Playing in Toronto does not mean your principle residence is in Toronto.

John Tavares Could Save Nearly $12 Million In Taxes On His New Contract

Any NHL player can save a ton of money by utilizing their primary residence. Especially since Toronto is able to pay out most of their players money as signing bonuses. Also as I said, the remaining NHL salary is taxed based off where the games were played. So for Toronto players, only a bit more than half of their salary is taxed in Canada.

You're making the tax advantage seem a lot larger than it actually is in reality. For what it's worth I actually work as a Junior Accountant at a public accounting firm in Canada. Definitely not a tax professional, but I'm not some 'amateur accountant on the internet' as you are implying.

 

[Legion34]

Playing in Toronto does not mean your principle residence is in Toronto.

John Tavares Could Save Nearly $12 Million In Taxes On His New Contract

Any NHL player can save a ton of money by utilizing their primary residence. Especially since Toronto is able to pay out most of their players money as signing bonuses. Also as I said, the remaining NHL salary is taxed based off where the games were played. So for Toronto players, only a bit more than half of their salary is taxed in Canada.

You're making the tax advantage seem a lot larger than it actually is in reality. For what it's worth I actually work as a Junior Accountant at a public accounting firm in Canada. Definitely not a tax professional, but I'm not some 'amateur accountant on the internet' as you are implying.

Except......

One. Tavares bought a house in Toronto. So it doesn’t work for him. If it was Really that easy. Then he would do it

Two. Lots of things work in hypotheticals. This is a hypothetical exercise from a. Person who doesn’t have clients listed.

An actual NHL accountant with 20 clients reported that the Americans don’t do it long term They may get it taxed like this in the first year. But he reported if he Maximized signing bonuses and RCAs he could get it down to 43%

That involves counting days. Not being able to have a car. Have a lease on a place longer than 12 months. Not being able to have a partner from here etc.

If you really think John Tavares. A Canadian citizen who works in Canada who has a Canadian son who has a wife who works in Canada is going to be able to claim he is a non resident then......

 

[filinski77]

Except......

One. Tavares bought a house in Toronto. So it doesn’t work for him. If it was Really that easy. Then he would do it

Two. Lots of things work in hypotheticals. This is a hypothetical exercise from a. Person who doesn’t have clients listed.

An actual NHL accountant with 20 clients reported that the Americans don’t do it long term They may get it taxed like this in the first year. But he reported if he Maximized signing bonuses and RCAs he could get it down to 43%

That involves counting days. Not being able to have a car. Have a lease on a place longer than 12 months. Not being able to have a partner from here etc.

If you really think John Tavares. A Canadian citizen who works in Canada who has a Canadian son who has a wife who works in Canada is going to be able to claim he is a non resident then......

Those were his choices though. If he didn't buy a permanent house, or sign a 12 month lease, he could have stayed a US resident had he kept a house in the states for the off-season. The point stands, is there are many options (including RCA's) that players can use to maximize their after-tax money.

It is disengenious to say that salary caps should be based off of a straight after-tax take home pay, without considering the various tax planning options, signing bonus options, and travel schedule for teams.

Not to mention when we are talking about a players choice of signing with a team (and for how much), it is also impacted by how good the team is, the city itself, endorsement opportunities, weather, team history. The salary cap is fine the way it is, people only complain about the Lightning's 'Tax Advantage' because they have a different team-culture than the Leafs do. You don't see Dallas and Vegas signing players to these team-friendly deals like Tampa (Stone, Benn etc.).

 

[Menzinger]

The problem with Dubas and the org is that they come across all pompus like they think they are the Yankees with how they can pay everyone. So all these RFA's see no reason to take team friendly deals since the organization constantly talks about how prestigious and loaded they are.

Good for the players getting every last penny. They could all blow out their knees tomorrow and never play again. You never know.

Citation needed.

 

[Legion34]

Those were his choices though. If he didn't buy a permanent house, or sign a 12 month lease, he could have stayed a US resident had he kept a house in the states for the off-season. The point stands, is there are many options (including RCA's) that players can use to maximize their after-tax money.

It is disengenious to say that salary caps should be based off of a straight after-tax take home pay, without considering the various tax planning options, signing bonus options, and travel schedule for teams.

Not to mention when we are talking about a players choice of signing with a team (and for how much), it is also impacted by how good the team is, the city itself, endorsement opportunities, weather, team history. The salary cap is fine the way it is, people only complain about the Lightning's 'Tax Advantage' because they have a different team-culture than the Leafs do. You don't see Dallas and Vegas signing players to these team-friendly deals like Tampa (Stone, Benn etc.).

The starting point absolutely is the advantage.
The point is that people who are doing an academic exercise on the internet have NO idea what it takes or costs or works for NHL players in real life.

So in order to only get a 6% reduction. John Tavares can’t buy a home. Has to leave the country. His wife can’t work? Sureeeee that sounds fair.

RCAs hold your money for years. So they get rid of money now vs money later advantages

You don’t just get to choose where you pay taxes. You have to be kidding. You have to PROVE that where you earn your money is not where you should pay taxes.

Canada taxes everyone. You think that one of the most famous Canadians who plays
On TV in toronto won’t be. Flagged? People don’t investigate?

Why. Because we are nice?

 

[CDN24]

?????

If your principle residence is Toronto. You get taxed at 53%.

If it is Tampa you get taxed at 39.


There is no way around it. Taxes are taxes. Ontario and montreal are the worst places for taxes.

Amateur accountants on the internet don’t over ride pros.

Regardless marner seems to have gotten paid about a million more Than point even WITH tax advantages taken into account

Except......

One. Tavares bought a house in Toronto. So it doesn’t work for him. If it was Really that easy. Then he would do it

Two. Lots of things work in hypotheticals. This is a hypothetical exercise from a. Person who doesn’t have clients listed.

An actual NHL accountant with 20 clients reported that the Americans don’t do it long term They may get it taxed like this in the first year. But he reported if he Maximized signing bonuses and RCAs he could get it down to 43%

That involves counting days. Not being able to have a car. Have a lease on a place longer than 12 months. Not being able to have a partner from here etc.

If you really think John Tavares. A Canadian citizen who works in Canada who has a Canadian son who has a wife who works in Canada is going to be able to claim he is a non resident then......

Are you a pro with clients? This is BS.

Hockey players will pay tax in the jurisdiction they are playing in (incl road games)
Owning a house does not make you a resident of somewhere? What if you have 3 residences in 3 different countries.
If counting days saves you 10% on $10M you damn well better count days.
RCA the rate will vary between a low of 25% and the tax rate of the jurisdiction where the guy retires to.
Depends on what the player wants to do to minimize his tax burden.

I think CRA at some point will close the signing bonus loophole. Someone like Matthews can tax almost everything in Arizona if he wantsa to. I get year one signing bonus but anything after yeqar one should be deemed salary IMO

Source: I'm a CPA, CA

 

[filinski77]

The starting point absolutely is the advantage.
The point is that people who are doing an academic exercise on the internet have NO idea what it takes or costs or works for NHL players in real life.

So in order to only get a 6% reduction. John Tavares can’t buy a home. Has to leave the country. His wife can’t work? Sureeeee that sounds fair.

RCAs hold your money for years. So they get rid of money now vs money later advantages

You don’t just get to choose where you pay taxes. You have to be kidding. You have to PROVE that where you earn your money is not where you should pay taxes.

Canada taxes everyone. You think that one of the most famous Canadians who plays
On TV in toronto won’t be. Flagged? People don’t investigate?

Why. Because we are nice?

I'm not telling him how to live his life, I'm just saying that:
1) there are various options available, and that
2) it is a lot more complex than saying it's not fair and that the cap should be tax-adjusted
-> Especially when considering American and European players who can definitely utilize primary residence in places other than Canada. I'm all for finding a way to make things more fair, but what you are suggesting is not it.

 

[Legion34]

Are you a pro with clients? This is BS.

Hockey players will pay tax in the jurisdiction they are playing in (incl road games)
Owning a house does not make you a resident of somewhere? What if you have 3 residences in 3 different countries.
If counting days saves you 10% on $10M you damn well better count days.
RCA the rate will vary between a low of 25% and the tax rate of the jurisdiction where the guy retires to.
Depends on what the player wants to do to minimize his tax burden.

I think CRA at some point will close the signing bonus loophole. Someone like Matthews can tax almost everything in Arizona if he wantsa to. I get year one signing bonus but anything after yeqar one should be deemed salary IMO

Source: I'm a CPA, CA

I’m pretty sure we are saying similar
Things?

Yes. Players get taxed where they play. But some can also claim non resident status. Which

is not as easy as people think. You have to prove your ties are greater in America than the country you live in and make most of your money in.

Like Tavares he can’t just say oh I am american because I own a house there. With a Canadian job and a Canadian kid in a Canadian school
With a Canadian wife who works. It’s not a personal decision. You have to prove it. I can’t just say. Oh I’m american for tax purposes.

People seem to think it’s just oh look I’m an American. I have a condo in Florida. Tax me like that. For athletes.

That’s what I’m saying. An actual
Accountant for 20 NHL clients says it’s very hard for Americans who play in Canada to keep
Residency long term.

Just like you. The accountant says in the article
That signing bonuses in Canada are a risk and you may be subjected to back taxes.

The tax differences do exist. People
Act like NHL players can just choose to pay wherever they want and there is no risk. Even though celebs are bankrupted all the time
By the IRS.

 

[Legion34]

I'm not telling him how to live his life, I'm just saying that:
1) there are various options available, and that
2) it is a lot more complex than saying it's not fair and that the cap should be tax-adjusted
-> Especially when considering American and European players who can definitely utilize primary residence in places other than Canada. I'm all for finding a way to make things more fair, but what you are suggesting is not it.

And all of those choices put people
At a significant disadvantage to even try to make it fair. The options seem to be highly unrealistic long term and the player doesn’t decide how he gets taxed.

I’m not saying I have the fool proof solution. If I am coming off like that. Im saying right now there
Is an obvious inequality in a system designed
To make it more fair.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

There is a calculator. It takes all this into account.

The difference is exactly what people are stating. Because it is what the pros say.....

I don’t know why people refuse to believe professionals?

“Sure CN tower is tall.... but not nearly as tall as architects and engineers say it is”

Rca’s are of such an absolutely RIDICULOUS financial advantage that the nba banned Toronto from using them outright. Their specific reason? Because it would create too significant of a financial advantage for Toronto.

The leafs PAY to sign their players up for rca’s. Tampa can’t use them.
Remember, saying it again, the nba BANNED the use of Toronto using rca’s due to their outrageous financial advantage.

I guess Clark34 on the Internet knows better than the nba. If only you were there to tell them that rca’s (lol) “don’t matter”.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Damn still crying about taxes? Why didnt FL sign Bobrovski to discounted deal? Why did Vegas sign Mark Stone to 9.5 mil? A player whos never reached 70 points. Where is the discount there? They have the same situation as FL and TB. How about you just admit that TB has an internal structure where players take discounts to help the team win. Not denying the no state tax has a little advantage but nothing Toronto wouldnt be able to overcome in their own ways of putting cash in a players pockets. You guys couldnt stop talking about how TB wouldnt be able to compete with the money Toronto would be able to give with endorsements. Then when he re-signs in Tampa is when I start hearing about the taxes.

 

[Legion34]

Rca’s are of such an absolutely RIDICULOUS financial advantage that the nba banned Toronto from using them outright. Their specific reason? Because it would create too significant of a financial advantage for Toronto.

The leafs PAY to sign their players up for rca’s. Tampa can’t use them.
Remember, saying it again, the nba BANNED the use of Toronto using rca’s due to their outrageous financial advantage.

I guess Clark34 on the Internet knows better than the nba. If only you were there to tell them that rca’s (lol) “don’t matter”.

I don’t know better. NHL players. Agents. Accountants. GMs know better.

But feel free to write an article for TSN. Or the athletic.

Prove them wrong.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I don’t know better. NHL players. Agents. Accountants. GMs know better.

But feel free to write an article for TSN. Or the athletic.

Prove them wrong.

So the nba is wrong? You know better?

 

[Legion34]

So the nba is wrong? You know better?

I think the NHL players. Agents. And accountants know better about how it affects their clients. Then the NBA.

Which has very different rules.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I think the NHL players. Agents. And accountants know better about how it affects their clients. Then the NBA.

Which has very different rules.

I’ve read articles explaining that rca’s are great at paying far less taxes. Those are actual tax experts and agents. And the nba banned rca’s outright because they’re so important.

Is your argument that the nba is just “stupid”, and they don’t understand rca’s as well as you do?

Or maybe... just maybe... it’s far more complicated than you try to make it sound.

 

[Legion34]

I’ve read articles explaining that rca’s are great at paying far less taxes. Those are actual tax experts and agents. And the nba banned rca’s outright because they’re so important.

Is your argument that the nba is just “stupid”, and they don’t understand rca’s as well as you do?

Or maybe... just maybe... it’s far more complicated than you try to make it sound.

Feel free to dispute the actual agents. Accountants and professionals who have actual NHL clients.

Go ahead. I will wait.

Will you use “throw more waffles”. Call in to radio. Email cap friendly. Post your results.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I think the NHL players. Agents. And accountants know better about how it affects their clients. Then the NBA.

Which has very different rules.

A player that’s in the nba has different Canadian tax rules applied to them? Are you serious?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Feel free to dispute the actual agents. Accountants and professionals who have actual NHL clients.

Go ahead. I will wait.

Will you use “throw more waffles”. Call in to radio. Email cap friendly. Post your results.

Why do I need to dispute them? I’ve read plenty of articles that outline the enormous tax benefits of rca’s.

Can you show me an agent or someone who just says “rca’s don’t matter”?

Even if you can find some, that’s hardly consensus.

Is your actual argument that you know better than the entirety of the nba?

 

[A1LeafNation]

Definitely can see Marner traded now if Leafs want to make an offer for Pietrangelo or whoever.

Nylander may provide more value at 6.9 than Marner at 10.8.

Crosby and Malkin stayed in Pitt. The highest paid winger got dealt to Arizona...Kessel.

 

[BruinsBtn]

I don’t know better. NHL players. Agents. Accountants. GMs know better.

But feel free to write an article for TSN. Or the athletic.

Prove them wrong.

It's already been done, it's right here: How pro athletes and other high earners stick-handle high Canadian income taxes

 

[Legion34]

Why do I need to dispute them? I’ve read plenty of articles that outline the enormous tax benefits of rca’s.

Can you show me an agent or someone who just says “rca’s don’t matter”?

Even if you can find some, that’s hardly consensus.

Is your actual argument that you know better than the entirety of the nba?

Like I said. Email the athletic. Email cap friendly.
It’s not hard.

 

[Legion34]

It's already been done, it's right here: How pro athletes and other high earners stick-handle high Canadian income taxes

Event that article doesn’t make it work like that.

1.) you have to move to retire.
2.) all your money is locked up.
3.) you run the risk of back taxes.

Actual accountants with actual clients have done this exercise for real with actual players.

 

[BruinsBtn]

Event that article doesn’t make it work like that.

1.) you have to move to retire.
2.) all your money is locked up.
3.) you run the risk of back taxes.

Actual accountants with actual clients have done this exercise for real with actual players.

1. So what. If taxes are such a drawback to playing in Toronto, what's the harm in moving for a year or two?
2. Locked up money is a fake problem. You can still invest it. These guys don't need liquidity and if they did, borrowing rates are ultra low for HNW individuals.
3. That doesn't make sense. You always run the risk of back taxes.

The article literally says players are doing it on the Leafs and Habs.