Confirmed Signing with Link: [TOR] Marner re-signs (6 years, $10.893M AAV) Part III

[DFC]

Yeah, there a lot we don’t know so it’s tough. Hard to say what was the best option.

Maybe he should have let him sit. Maybe he gets a good return in a trade.

Impossible to say.

On one of these guys, he was gonna have to show he was willing to go to the wall and get his deal.

What it comes down to is he failed to get a truly team friendly deal from his stars. You can either blame him or blame the stars. But other GMs are showing that these contracts, which for a couple of weeks have been touted as "the new norm," are likely to be outliers.

 

[sparxx87]

On one of these guys, he was gonna have to show he was willing to go to the wall and get his deal.

What it comes down to is he failed to get a truly team friendly deal from his stars. You can either blame him or blame the stars. But other GMs are showing that these contracts, which for a couple of weeks have been touted as "the new norm," are likely to be outliers.

Sometimes. Andrei Vasilevskiy didn’t take a discount. Not everyone will and despite your best efforts, that’s often out of your control.


Full credit to the Bolts for implementing an internal structure, but you’ve gotta have the players to make it work and for that you need a little luck. Tampa is fortunate that although Vasilevskiy didn’t, almost all the other top players did. Great for them. They’re in a great spot because of it.

 

[DFC]

Sometimes. Andrei Vasilevskiy didn’t take a discount. Not everyone will and despite your best efforts, that’s often out of your control.

11%. That's what our star players get. Discount or not, it works out to 11. Point will get something in that range in 2022.

Full credit to the Bolts for implementing an internal structure, but you’ve gotta have the players to make it work and for that you need a little luck. Tampa is fortunate that although Vasilevskiy didn’t, almost all the other top players did. Great for them. They’re in a great spot because of it.

The key was Stamkos taking 8.5 despite better offers. Everyone fell in line behind him.

Vasy's 9.5 is a discount depending on whom you ask. He did sign right after winning a Vezina, and his second straight nomination. It's hard not to consider him the best goalie in the league, and, at worst, top-3. But honestly, I think our guys know how our internal cap works, and it has become pretty clear that we do not go to 12% for a star player. They get between 11 and 11.9% of the cap. Other teams can do what they want. This is what we do.

 

[nturn06]

That’s speculation on your part. You don’t know what endorsements are available to Point or how much Marner can/will make.

If your company is making more than most if not all of its competitors, and you’re one of the 3-5 most valuable contributors to that, would you take less so the company can remain manageable while you make up the difference on your own time doing additional work? Some would, maybe. Others wouldn’t. If your player is one that wouldn’t, and makes his stance very public, it really limits your options.

Again, Dubas was in a no-win and IMO tried to take the least painful L. Letting him sit past day 1 sees the LTIR/Clarkson backfire and trading him for what would likely be less than market value doesn’t really make sense, either.

Kyle Dubas is undoubtably an idiot but it’s important to consider the role the Marner camp played in all this, too.

Personally I think that endorsements are overvalued by fans, in hockey I expect them to be pretty low... The interesting part is that many TML fans used last year endorsements to convince us that WN,AM and MM will take big paycuts... Now, (other) TML are trying to convince us that the opposite happens.

As to your last line: what was teh Marner camp supposed to do? If you negociate with an idiot you can either take advantage or try to be a bigger idiot....

 

[sparxx87]

11%. That's what our star players get. Discount or not, it works out to 11. Point will get something in that range in 2022.




The key was Stamkos taking 8.5 despite better offers. Everyone fell in line behind him.

Vasy's 9.5 is a discount depending on whom you ask. He did sign right after winning a Vezina, and his second straight nomination. It's hard not to consider him the best goalie in the league, and, at worst, top-3. But honestly, I think our guys know how our internal cap works, and it has become pretty clear that we do not go to 12% for a star player. They get between 11 and 11.9% of the cap. Other teams can do what they want. This is what we do.

Vasilevskiy is definitely a top 3 goalie on the ice but he’s also top 3 on the cap. He’s around where he should be and that’s no discount IMO... But him and McDonagh are the only impact players who aren’t below market. That’s definitely a sign of shrewd management but there’s some very good fortune in there, too.

Yzerman did an excellent job creating the culture that fans and even his successor can enjoy.

 

[DFC]

Vasilevskiy is definitely a top 3 goalie on the ice but he’s also top 3 on the cap. He’s around where he should be and that’s no discount IMO... But him and McDonagh are the only impact players who aren’t below market. That’s definitely a sign of shrewd management but there’s some very good fortune in there, too.

Yzerman did an excellent job creating the culture that fans and even his successor can enjoy.

Yeah. Vasy's market value or slightly below, but not the kind of discount as, say, Kucherov. But that's just what we pay stars. It'll be the same with Point in 2022, assuming he stays on track.

McDonagh though... Man, if he wasn't as good as Hedman last year, he was only a hair below.

 

[sparxx87]

Yeah. Vasy's market value or slightly below, but not the kind of discount as, say, Kucherov. But that's just what we pay stars. It'll be the same with Point in 2022, assuming he stays on track.

McDonagh though... Man, if he wasn't as good as Hedman last year, he was only a hair below.

*they* You keep saying we as if you’re part of the organization.

I really like McDonagh but that could be a lot of money to be paying at 35 and 36 years old. Time will tell.

Either way, when that’s the only questionable one, you’ve done very well. Full credit to the Bolts staff.

 

[CreeksideStrangler]

I would have let him sit until his demands were more reasonable.

Unfortunately, with the deal given to Matthews, it would create quite the double standard. But regardless, I'd have called his bluff.

i agree. no matter how hf leaf fans try to spin this... our guys got worse rfa deals than everyone else. I probably wouldve caved quickly to Matthews though... cant risk making him unhappy... with Marner and Nylander he set the precident that Dubas is a folding chair

 

[Brunomics]

i agree. no matter how hf leaf fans try to spin this... our guys got worse rfa deals than everyone else. I probably wouldve caved quickly to Matthews though... cant risk making him unhappy... with Marner and Nylander he set the precident that Dubas is a folding chair

The problem with Dubas and the org is that they come across all pompus like they think they are the Yankees with how they can pay everyone. So all these RFA's see no reason to take team friendly deals since the organization constantly talks about how prestigious and loaded they are.

Good for the players getting every last penny. They could all blow out their knees tomorrow and never play again. You never know.

 

[ajp4to]

The problem with Dubas and the org is that they come across all pompus like they think they are the Yankees with how they can pay everyone. So all these RFA's see no reason to take team friendly deals since the organization constantly talks about how prestigious and loaded they are.

Good for the players getting every last penny. They could all blow out their knees tomorrow and never play again. You never know.

The players would have still got every penny available; unfortunately, 4 players got half of the money, which will make a balanced team impossible. I see trade demands from Matthews and Travers this time next year. Marner will stay as no other team would touch the dirtbag with a ten-foot pole.

 

[Foxtail]

The players would have still got every penny available; unfortunately, 4 players got half of the money, which will make a balanced team impossible. I see trade demands from Matthews and Travers this time next year. Marner will stay as no other team would touch the dirtbag with a ten-foot pole.

Hey now he's ranked #29 on Sportsnet's top 50 player rankings , and I guess his comparable is seen as better as he's #17.

 

[mydnyte]

Yeah. Vasy's market value or slightly below, but not the kind of discount as, say, Kucherov. But that's just what we pay stars. It'll be the same with Point in 2022, assuming he stays on track.

McDonagh though... Man, if he wasn't as good as Hedman last year, he was only a hair below.

if tax was factored into the equation, i'm sure the salaries would seem much closer, and maybe even slanted lower for high tax teams. ...factor tax, and spit out the net salary for LA, NY, Tor, and TB

i.e. Marner is making $16,000,000 this season and his take home is as follows:
Toronto: $7,463,733
LA: 7,629720
NY: $8,345,421
TB: $9,720,306

Tor has a much higher Cap Hit than TB because of Taxes...
in fact they have the highest in the League (Tied with Ott) while TB has the lowest.

Cap = $81,500,000
Leafs Net = $37,901,583
TB Net= $48,014,179

TB 'technically' has a Cap $10+ million higher than the Leafs.

The NHL Cap should be factored on the NET After Tax on a Team by Team basis, else there is no true parity.

 

[Merrrlin]

For everyone calling out Dubas - his team, which he has ruined in your eyes, where do you think it finishes?

I say Leaf probably finish top 6 in the league. So even after ruining his organization, he's still going to finish better than all but 5 other GMs.

If he sucks, y'all's GM supersucks.

I can see Blues fans (but why?) and Sharks fans (but why?) talking trash, and of course Tampa fans (but really, after a historic round 1 sweep by an 8 seed?). Boston fans too, they have the Leafs number.

The rest of you should worry about getting your organization to higher heights. I know personally, as much as I enjoy the schadenfreude, it won't mean anything if Toronto has a big year. We're gonna reap what we're sowing in this offseason if that happens.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Only a fool believe the personal tax rates that are posted are any indications of a players "take home pay"

 

[Fogelhund]

For everyone calling out Dubas - his team, which he has ruined in your eyes, where do you think it finishes?

I say Leaf probably finish top 6 in the league. So even after ruining his organization, he's still going to finish better than all but 5 other GMs.

If he sucks, y'all's GM supersucks.

I can see Blues fans (but why?) and Sharks fans (but why?) talking trash, and of course Tampa fans (but really, after a historic round 1 sweep by an 8 seed?). Boston fans too, they have the Leafs number.

The rest of you should worry about getting your organization to higher heights. I know personally, as much as I enjoy the schadenfreude, it won't mean anything if Toronto has a big year. We're gonna reap what we're sowing in this offseason if that happens.

A pretty rational post.

No matter who you pay what, how players get paid, the business side, or anything else... there is but one thing that matters here.

How did the team perform? Dubas, Babcock and the Leafs will be judged on how they do. I can guarantee you, if the Leafs win the cup, no rational person, poster, analyst will go... sure, they won the cup, but they overpaid Marner. Who cares? Literally who cares?

If they continue to lose in Round One, and can't build a winner because of overpayments, sure, bad on Dubas and the Leafs... but that is the future, and we don't know what happens there.

You know what, regular season hockey is nearly here, and that's pretty exciting. Let's enjoy the hockey, the business side is done, and can be judged after.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

For everyone calling out Dubas - his team, which he has ruined in your eyes, where do you think it finishes?

I say Leaf probably finish top 6 in the league. So even after ruining his organization, he's still going to finish better than all but 5 other GMs.

If he sucks, y'all's GM supersucks.

I can see Blues fans (but why?) and Sharks fans (but why?) talking trash, and of course Tampa fans (but really, after a historic round 1 sweep by an 8 seed?). Boston fans too, they have the Leafs number.

The rest of you should worry about getting your organization to higher heights. I know personally, as much as I enjoy the schadenfreude, it won't mean anything if Toronto has a big year. We're gonna reap what we're sowing in this offseason if that happens.

Pretty much.

The right people are being paid big, the right people are being paid small. Keep the depth in the pipeline and keep on keeping on.

Would be great if everyone made $5 M but at the end of the day, I'm just going to enjoy me some entertainment.

 

[mydnyte]

Only a fool believe the personal tax rates that are posted are any indications of a players "take home pay"

only a 'fool' thinks varying tax rates makes for an even playing field.

 

[filinski77]

if tax was factored into the equation, i'm sure the salaries would seem much closer, and maybe even slanted lower for high tax teams. ...factor tax, and spit out the net salary for LA, NY, Tor, and TB

i.e. Marner is making $16,000,000 this season and his take home is as follows:
Toronto: $7,463,733
LA: 7,629720
NY: $8,345,421
TB: $9,720,306

Tor has a much higher Cap Hit than TB because of Taxes...
in fact they have the highest in the League (Tied with Ott) while TB has the lowest.

Cap = $81,500,000
Leafs Net = $37,901,583
TB Net= $48,014,179

TB 'technically' has a Cap $10+ million higher than the Leafs.

The NHL Cap should be factored on the NET After Tax on a Team by Team basis, else there is no true parity.

Do your numbers factor in signing bonuses being taxed based off of principle residence (which gives big market teams like Toronto a huge advantage), or the fact that the remaining salary is paid out based on where the game was played (ie. half your salary is taxed based off where the road game was played)?

 

[CDN24]

Only a fool believe the personal tax rates that are posted are any indications of a players "take home pay"

Exactly there are many factors, players residency, European players. cdn teams can use an RCA not available to US teams.

4 teams play in States with no personal income tax Panthers/Bolts/Stars vegas. Nashville taxes investment income but not wages so Nashville is almost in there in terms of player salaries

Do all these teams consistently sign their Stars (no pun intended Dallas) for less than market value

Dallas Seguin 9.85M 12.39% of cap when signed and benn 9.5M (13.01% of Cap when signed) these are all UFA years

vegas

Stone 9.5M 11.39% of cap when signed again UFA years

Fla

Bob 10M 12.37% of Cap when signed Ufa years
Ekblad 7.5M 10.27 % of Cap. 1/2 RFA years and 1/2 UFA
Huberdeau 5.9M 8.08% of cap 2 RFA years and rest UFA. coming off a career best 59 pts at that point.

Not seeing the no state tax premium that Tampa gets. Is taxes a factor yes but not the largest, Tampa is the team culture everybody takes a bridge, great place to play great team etc.

 

[Dache]

if tax was factored into the equation, i'm sure the salaries would seem much closer, and maybe even slanted lower for high tax teams. ...factor tax, and spit out the net salary for LA, NY, Tor, and TB

i.e. Marner is making $16,000,000 this season and his take home is as follows:
Toronto: $7,463,733
LA: 7,629720
NY: $8,345,421
TB: $9,720,306

Tor has a much higher Cap Hit than TB because of Taxes...
in fact they have the highest in the League (Tied with Ott) while TB has the lowest.

Cap = $81,500,000
Leafs Net = $37,901,583
TB Net= $48,014,179

TB 'technically' has a Cap $10+ million higher than the Leafs.

The NHL Cap should be factored on the NET After Tax on a Team by Team basis, else there is no true parity.

I don’t think you know what the word “technically” means. Maybe objectively would work there but no that isn’t technically the actual salary cap. And this whole nonsense about factoring that in? Then shouldn’t cost of living be factored? What about endorsements, what about amenities supplied by the team or the city?

 

[CreeksideStrangler]

The players would have still got every penny available; unfortunately, 4 players got half of the money, which will make a balanced team impossible. I see trade demands from Matthews and Travers this time next year. Marner will stay as no other team would touch the dirtbag with a ten-foot pole.

travers took a paycut... he isnt going anywhere... matthews wont do that to the team until his contract is up earliest if ever

 

[CreeksideStrangler]

correct me if im wrong... but their pay taxation depends on where they earned it... thats why tampa has more takehome becausetheir home games are played in tampa... not everygame though so the difference isnt as much as people are stating

 

[Njfj]

Still such an overpay.

 

[Frank Drebin]

11%. That's what our star players get. Discount or not, it works out to 11. Point will get something in that range in 2022.




The key was Stamkos taking 8.5 despite better offers. Everyone fell in line behind him.

Vasy's 9.5 is a discount depending on whom you ask. He did sign right after winning a Vezina, and his second straight nomination. It's hard not to consider him the best goalie in the league, and, at worst, top-3. But honestly, I think our guys know how our internal cap works, and it has become pretty clear that we do not go to 12% for a star player. They get between 11 and 11.9% of the cap. Other teams can do what they want. This is what we do.

Are you part of the Bolts management?

 

[Legion34]

Do your numbers factor in signing bonuses being taxed based off of principle residence (which gives big market teams like Toronto a huge advantage), or the fact that the remaining salary is paid out based on where the game was played (ie. half your salary is taxed based off where the road game was played)?

?????

If your principle residence is Toronto. You get taxed at 53%.

If it is Tampa you get taxed at 39.


There is no way around it. Taxes are taxes. Ontario and montreal are the worst places for taxes.

Amateur accountants on the internet don’t over ride pros.

Regardless marner seems to have gotten paid about a million more Than point even WITH tax advantages taken into account