Confirmed Signing with Link: [TOR] Marner re-signs (6 years, $10.893M AAV) Part III

[Dekes For Days]

As to your comment about Dermott being a controlled RFA... its clear now that with Dubas there is no such thing.

Dubas has not overpaid any of his RFAs, and even beyond people not understanding the proper valuation of Matthews, Marner and Nylander, all of the Leaf's non-star RFAs in a similar position were all underpaid if anything by pretty much any metric you want to go by. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Hitemwith4]

Three thread and this one is on page 15 ? Do you people really need to fight this long about this? Leaf fans are happy hes in Toronto for another 6 years and fans of other teams don't you all say you hate talking about the leafs? Hes sign its over

 

[FerrisRox]

If those players "vanish", then that frees up cap space to rebuild it. Come on now, if you're going to talk about cap space, you should at least understand that much.

Surely your aware that half of Barrie's cap hit is being absorbed by Colorado, right?

 

[shortfuze]

I keep laughing at the "we can, and we did" etc comments.

It's like they had only 25 million to sign the last 3 big contracts. OF COURSE THEY "COULD"

It is to what extent they "should have".

We can and we will/did sound slike a kid with daddys bank account who just overblew his wad on 3 guys lol. Of course they were going to sign them.

See now it all changes. First it was “ they won’t be able to sign all 3 of them” now it’s, but to what extent? Get real. Dubas did exactly what people on here said he wouldn’t be able to do.

The funny thing is. People are complaining about the AAV and yet if it was for max term it would be no problem. It’s still the same AAV. People had no problem with Marner getting 7 years, 11 million per. 1 less year and 100,000. People really need to find a hobby instead of complaining about this. Or come back and complain in 5 years when those deals start expiring.

 

[Rubi]

This one may have gone over your head a bit.

Posters on this board have spent over a year telling Leaf fans that the team won't be able to sign Matthews/Marner/Nylander after they signed JT. Or if they can do it, they'll have to part with their secondary RFAs - Kapanen and Johnsson.

Now that the team has retained all of those guys, yourself, and I'm sure others soon, will switch the narrative to the Leafs being unable to sign veteran dmen 2 seasons from now, even though the team will have $11.5 mil in cap room created with Muzzin/Barrie/Ceci expiring, and multiple first-round picks ELC dmen ready to step in likely as soon as this season.

It's just a bit tiresome, that's all.

And its tiresome to keep explaining that next year the Leafs have 12 players under contract for $66.3M leaving $15.2M (assuming the cap remains at $81.5M which knowlegeble people are predicting ... see link below) to sign another 8 players just to meet the minimum roster requirements of 20 players (and good luck with that!).

Maple Leafs approaching uncertain salary cap future one year at a time - Sportsnet.ca

 

[Gary Nylund]

Surely your aware that half of Barrie's cap hit is being absorbed by Colorado, right?

Yup. My point still stands though.

You might not be aware that we have two really good defence prospects on the way making the situation on defence far less dire then some would seem to think. You're welcome.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Oh, I see. Your ELC defensemen are better than other people's ELC defensemen, so it's okay.

Sandin and Liljegren are not your average ELC defensemen either.

If they handle the game like our guys did then great for you. Its just not an ideal situation and we had no idea that Cernak would end up being as good as he is. We were hoping he would just be able to fit in with our guys like how Dotchin was before the offseason when he showed up overweight. He was serviceable until late that season. Then he turned back into a pumpkin, almost literally and then saw his days end here. I think most people would be a little worried about how Cernak would be in his second full season but I havent seen too much of that because hes been so good. Now Torontos guys could be like that too, but I think its probably easier to bet that they wont because its a tough league. One reason why TB has been able to be so good for as long as they have is because they have continuously hit on our prospects and develop our young players well. I think Toronto has had some good prospects too but even then its no guarantee that they work out. Thats why they said that its not ideal to have 2 ELC on your team because even in TBs case its just not something that happens all the time. That doesnt mean Toronto cant.

 

[MattMartin]

All the signings and were able to improve on defense as well.

Rielly Barrie
Muzzin Ceci

Harpur
Schmaltz
Marincin
Holl
Sandin
Lilegren

That's a top 5 D right there.

Plus Kerfoot>Kadri
Spezza>Marleau

 

[Rubi]

Dubas has not overpaid any of his RFAs, and even beyond people not understanding the proper valuation of Matthews, Marner and Nylander, all of the Leaf's non-star RFAs in a similar position were all underpaid if anything by pretty much any metric you want to go by. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I have to disagree with you there and it all started with AM, continued with Nylander, and he was forced into doing it again with Marner. These were all players who had zero leverage other than withholding their services and Dubas got bent over and screwed by all three of their agents.

 

[Kurtz]

And its tiresome to keep explaining that next year the Leafs have 12 players under contract for $66.3M leaving $15.2M (assuming the cap remains at $81.5M which knowlegeble people are predicting ... see link below) to sign another 8 players just to meet the minimum roster requirements of 20 players (and good luck with that!).

Maple Leafs approaching uncertain salary cap future one year at a time - Sportsnet.ca

Then why do you feel that it's your duty to do it?

Dude, we all know we got ~$15 mil to sign ~8 guys. Considering that 6 of those guys will be depth guys, that leaves about $9-10 mil to sign two vet dmen to play top-4 minutes. If Muzzin signs for $6-7, that leaves $3 mil for a Ron Hainsey type and the team is set. Does that really seem like an insurmountable challenge to you?

 

[Dekes For Days]

I have to disagree with you there and it all started with AM, continued with Nylander, and he was forced into doing it again with Marner.

Once again, those players are not overpaid. You have faulty valuation methods. Matthews and Marner are two of the best RFAs we have ever seen in the cap era. You also didn't even get the order right.

And once again, regardless of what you want to blindly believe, what happened with star RFAs has no relevance to non-star RFAs, which have all come in underpaid if anything.

 

[Rubi]

It's fun to be all judgemental in advance. Maybe Dubas screwed up, or maybe not.... if the Leafs make the Cup, I wonder if people will change their tune? Maybe he just kept together a great collection of young players, for a long time. Seven very good forwards under contract for three seasons out, only one who can control if they are moved or not. Time is the proper judge, not a bunch of people on a message board..... let's see how the Leafs do over the next three years...

Well if we didn't judge what would be the point of having a message board? This forum would just dry up and blow away if people stopped judging and expressing their opinions.
But as you say correctly... time will be the proper judge.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I have to disagree with you there and it all started with AM, continued with Nylander, and he was forced into doing it again with Marner. These were all players who had zero leverage other than withholding their services and Dubas got bent over and screwed by all three of their agents.

I think if Leafs fans could do it all over again I would bet they would wish their GM had negotiated better deals for their team and I dont know how they could be happy with those current deals but I can see why they would be happy that they got them all re-signed. I think if I was a Leafs fan I would stay a little bit neutral on it because I think it would be great that they got them back but skeptical on how the team will be able to handle it going forward but hoping for the best of course. I think the rationalization of the deal is a little homerish to me. We are talking about Leafs fans though. At least since I have been on the site it seems like the majority of them are happy with anything they do.

 

[Rubi]

Then why do you feel that it's your duty to do it?

Dude, we all know we got ~$15 mil to sign 8 guys. Considering that 6 of those guys will be depth guys, that leaves about $9-10 mil to sign two vet dmen to play top-4 minutes. If Muzzin signs for $6-7, that leaves $3 mil for a Ron Hainsey type and the team is set. Does that really seem like an insurmountable challenge to you?

No possibly not. But good luck anyways. My belief is that the Leafs can't do it and still be a top contender for the cup. Its just my opinion and we all are entitled to our opinion... right or wrong and the proof will be obvious in another few years.

 

[Placid Perspicuity]

You traded a first round draft pick for cap space and built a defense that will vanish into free agency next season with no money to rebuild it.

So for the price of a first round draft pick, the problem got pushed forward one year. I don't know why you are being smug about this as if everyone was wrong. Dubas gave up a 1st rounder to buy a little cap space reshuffled his dollars on defense - and let one of his biggest minute munchers walk for free - to move the problem to next summer.

You have a problem with someone acting smug because of things that happened, all the while acting smug about something you think/hope will happen in the future. Perhaps the smugness you are detecting in others is just a reflection of your own attitude?

When did the narrative of "The Leafs can't sign all of Matthews, Nylander and Marner" change to "The Leafs can't sign all of Matthews, Nylander and Marner without trading a first round pick?" It was believed that a far greater price than a pick would need to be paid to even fit 2 of the 3, with Nylander, Kapanen and/or Johnsson all being mentioned as supposed casualties. Yet when Dubas was able to retain all 3 of them without losing these players, the narrative has now shifted to "they had to lose stuff! See!" I don't necessarily think that Dubas has been perfect. I have many opinions about how this summer has unfolded, but I'm not going to focus on 1 detail to discount the whole product.

You seem to be personally invested in proving that Leaf fans have nothing to look forward to, but I hope you also spend some time supporting the team you actually like. This time of year is full of optimism for most fans, and inevitably, many will end up disappointed by the end of the year. You acting like it's your job to crush hopes for something as harmless as cheering for a sports team is a far uglier thing to be doing than "acting smug."

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think the rationalization of the deal is a little homerish to me. We are talking about Leafs fans though. At least since I have been on the site it seems like the majority of them are happy with anything they do.

Nah, ever since I've been on the site there's been constant disagreement on the Leafs board about basically everything. What is a constant though is that the vast majority on the main boards are constantly putting down everything the Leafs do which is pretty dumb considering there's been a lot more good than bad over the last few years.

I personally think that Marner/Matthews/Nylander got overpaid by about 2M total. That's nothing though considering Marleau was overpaid by more than that all on his own the getting rid of him for a 1st round pick was a solid move. The rest of our contracts are really good overall though, in that regard I'd say we're in better shape than most teams. And this season we're totally stacked, I guess that's the reason some people are already predicting doom for next season, anything as long as they get to put down the Leafs.

 

[Evanc23]

All the signings and were able to improve on defense as well.

Rielly Barrie
Muzzin Ceci

Harpur
Schmaltz
Marincin
Holl
Sandin
Lilegren

That's a top 5 D right there.

Plus Kerfoot>Kadri
Spezza>Marleau

Yeah, I'd have to disagree on all points there.

 

[shortfuze]

I have to disagree with you there and it all started with AM, continued with Nylander, and he was forced into doing it again with Marner. These were all players who had zero leverage other than withholding their services and Dubas got bent over and screwed by all three of their agents.

Why don’t you blame buffalo and jack Eichel? Buffalo gave Eichel an 8 year, 80 million dollar contract for a player who couldn’t stay healthy. Never had over 70 points, wasn’t a point per game player then and still isn’t a career point per game player now. (He was just over PPG this year). Why not blame buffalo?

 

[CupsOverCash]

Nah, ever since I've been on the site there's been constant disagreement on the Leafs board about basically everything. What is a constant though is that the vast majority on the main boards are constantly putting down everything the Leafs do which is pretty dumb considering there's been a lot more good than bad over the last few years.

I personally think that Marner/Matthews/Nylander got overpaid by about 2M total. That's nothing though considering Marleau was overpaid by more than that all on his own the getting rid of him for a 1st round pick was a solid move. The rest of our contracts are really good overall though, in that regard I'd say we're in better shape than most teams. And this season we're totally stacked, I guess that's the reason some people are already predicting doom for next season, anything as long as they get to put down the Leafs.

I cant disagree that you guys are given a hard time on here but its definitely not for no reason... There is definitely at least some accuracy in what I said but you proved to be different so good for you.

 

[Muffin]

All the signings and were able to improve on defense as well.

Rielly Barrie
Muzzin Ceci

Harpur
Schmaltz
Marincin
Holl
Sandin
Lilegren

That's a top 5 D right there.

Plus Kerfoot>Kadri
Spezza>Marleau

Lol of you truly believe that why do you think Colorado just didn't make Kerfoot their 2C?

 

[FerrisRox]

When did the narrative of "The Leafs can't sign all of Matthews, Nylander and Marner" change to "The Leafs can't sign all of Matthews, Nylander and Marner without trading a first round pick?"

Do you think that anybody - even a single person - thought that the Leafs actually couldn't sign the three guys? Nobody thought that. Not one person. I mean, it's not complicated to sign guys, especially when you're as generous as Kyle Dubas was to those guys.

That narrative was always that something would have to give to fit those guys in. Why are you pretending that it wasn't? You realize we can go back and look ... all the threads are archived. Seems pointless to try and re-write history.

It was believed that a far greater price than a pick would need to be paid to even fit 2 of the 3, with Nylander, Kapanen and/or Johnsson all being mentioned as supposed casualties. Yet when Dubas was able to retain all 3 of them without losing these players, the narrative has now shifted to "they had to lose stuff! See!"

Again, you are pretending the "narrative shifted" to they had to lose stuff. That was always the narrative. They gave up a 1st round pick and had to surrender Kadri for a rental on Barrie. This is exactly what people were talking about. A price had to be paid to fit in those contacts and the contracts came in higher than the vast majority of Leaf fans claimed they would, too. I don't know why there are now some of those very same fans doing a victory lap as if Dubas just pulled a rabbit out of a hat here.

You seem to be personally invested in proving that Leaf fans have nothing to look forward to, but I hope you also spend some time supporting the team you actually like. This time of year is full of optimism for most fans, and inevitably, many will end up disappointed by the end of the year. You acting like it's your job to crush hopes for something as harmless as cheering for a sports team is a far uglier thing to be doing than "acting smug."

I watch a ton of Leaf games and find them hugely entertaining to watch, and I think they will be even more fun to watch with Tyson Barrie in the fold. Additionally, by far my least favourite Leaf, Jake Gardiner, is now gone, making them even more fun to watch.

You're free to be optimistic all you want. My opinion certainly has no effect on yours so I think you are grossly over-estimating the effect my opinion has on any Leaf fan here if you think I'm crushing anyones hopes. Also, you should realize, this is a discussion board, and its going to be full of opinions, so if you're looking for an echo chamber where everyone thinks everything is great and the Leafs have no issues, you might be more comfortable hanging out in the Leafs forum. Once you come into the main forums, you might find a lot more unbiased takes on things that, of course, will ironically be labeled as biased, because of a nefarious plot by fans of every other team to criticize the Maple Leafs and spread "Leaf Hate."

Enjoy the season, they're gonna be a lot of fun to watch.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I cant disagree that you guys are given a hard time on here but its definitely not for no reason... There is definitely at least some accuracy in what I said but you proved to be different so good for you.

Some accuracy sure, not a good idea to generalise though.

I think all fan bases are similar - some fans are smart, some less smart. The Leaf fan base is the biggest so you'll get more smart fans but also more dumb fans and so it goes. We're also clearly the most hated, probably because we are biggest and that means that tons of dumb fans from the rest of the league say dumb stuff about us constantly.

Do you think that anybody - even a single person - thought that the Leafs actually couldn't sign the three guys? Nobody thought that. Not one person. I mean, it's not complicated to sign guys, especially when you're as generous as Kyle Dubas was to those guys.

That narrative was always that something would have to give to fit those guys in. Why are you pretending that it wasn't? You realize we can go back and look ... all the threads are archived. Seems pointless to try and re-write history.

Maybe nobody thought that but plenty of people were saying it. And many others were saying that even if we could sign them, we'd have to give up Kapanen or Johnsson or something along those linse. WE got out of the jam giving up just one late 1st round pick, a small price to pay for keeping all the other guys

Again, you are pretending the "narrative shifted" to they had to lose stuff. That was always the narrative. They gave up a 1st round pick and had to surrender Kadri for a rental on Barrie. This is exactly what people were talking about. A price had to be paid to fit in those contacts and the contracts came in higher than the vast majority of Leaf fans claimed they would, too. I don't know why there are now some of those very same fans doing a victory lap as if Dubas just pulled a rabbit out of a hat here.

You're completely ignoring that we got a replacement for Kadri in that trade. When you do stuff like that that clearly shows your bias. He's not as good as Kadri (today anyway) but he's younger and cheaper and acting like he doesn't exist is pretty dumb.

 

[garyturner3]

Three thread and this one is on page 15 ? Do you people really need to fight this long about this? Leaf fans are happy hes in Toronto for another 6 years and fans of other teams don't you all say you hate talking about the leafs? Hes sign its over

That's not enough for some people though. Until every leaf fan is beaten into submission and admits we're completely screwed, this will never end. Even a Stanley Cup this year won't change a thing regarding this. It's like a fixation with the Leafs and other fanbases. People can't accept that our fanbase is happy with what we have. There always has to be something negative to point out.

 

[Team Cozens]

Three thread and this one is on page 15 ? Do you people really need to fight this long about this? Leaf fans are happy hes in Toronto for another 6 years and fans of other teams don't you all say you hate talking about the leafs? Hes sign its over

Leafs wanted 7 years and Marner wanted the Matthews 5 so it was always going to be a 6 year deal if both wanted to make it work.

The problem with the Matthews deal is it really a 4 year deal when you consider the likelihood of him not wanted to resign entering his last year. Gotta trade him at that point as you can't let me walk to Phoenix as a UFA. Marner will retire a Leaf.

 

[Jozay]

Leafs wanted 7 years and Marner wanted the Matthews 5 so it was always going to be a 6 year deal if both wanted to make it work.

The problem with the Matthews deal is it really a 4 year deal when you consider the likelihood of him not wanted to resign entering his last year. Gotta trade him at that point as you can't let me walk to Phoenix as a UFA. Marner will retire a Leaf.

How do you know Matthews wont want to re-sign?