Confirmed with Link: [TOR/COL] Nazem Kadri, Calle Rosen for Tyson Barrie (50% retain), Alex Kerfoot trade (continued)

[SeaOfBlue]

I like that you have decided to randomly pick a negative comp for Barrie and stick with it, but there is literally zero basis for your comparison. Which is why you have had to backfill your comps with lies - like colorado being better offensively than st.louis was, etc.

Trust me, as one of the only voices on HF screaming that Shattenkirk was the most overrated dman in the league back then, and laughing at leafs fans who actually wanted to give him $7+m because they thought he would be our #1 dman, that this comparison actually makes no sense whatsoever.

The two players aren't similar in style, nor in effectiveness.

As someone who said the exact same thing, I still stand by my sentiment on Barrie. Before I go any further, who do you think he's comparable to stylistically? Because that'll tell me if I am wasting my time.

 

[Deebo]

Why do you leaf fans think Kerfoot is a centre? You guys basing it on the amount of faceoffs? Ask any Avs fan they will tell you he was terrible when he played centre, and got most of his points on the pp or as a winger with Mak. If you guys would see this trade without homer glasses, you would see how bad this trade was. Even if the leafs were willing to use more then half their cap next season to sign one of 5 spots on D that needs to be filled, Barrie knows if he hits ufa he can play for a team in the west, possibly his hometown where there has been mutual interest for ever. Soong term its Kadri and Rosen, for Kerfoot. Thats a really bad trade. I dont usually post in other teams threads, but the leaf fans tend to make every single thread aboutvthe leafs somehow, so I thought id give it a try. I have to admit, that im surprised at how many decent fans are here. Too bad their are a bunch of obnoxious ones who make the good ones look bad.

Funny how you talk about obnoxious fans in this post.

 

[zeke]

As someone who said the exact same thing, I still stand by my sentiment on Barrie. Before I go any further, who do you think he's comparable to stylistically? Because that'll tell me if I am wasting my time.

Barrie is a fast, dynamic, puck rushing dman. Stylistically he's like Rielly.

Shattenkirk is none of that. Shattenkirk was a smart PP QB with a nice shot.

 

[ottomaddox]

Why do you leaf fans think Kerfoot is a centre? You guys basing it on the amount of faceoffs? Ask any Avs fan they will tell you he was terrible when he played centre, and got most of his points on the pp or as a winger with Mak. If you guys would see this trade without homer glasses, you would see how bad this trade was. Even if the leafs were willing to use more then half their cap next season to sign one of 5 spots on D that needs to be filled, Barrie knows if he hits ufa he can play for a team in the west, possibly his hometown where there has been mutual interest for ever. Soong term its Kadri and Rosen, for Kerfoot. Thats a really bad trade. I dont usually post in other teams threads, but the leaf fans tend to make every single thread aboutvthe leafs somehow, so I thought id give it a try. I have to admit, that im surprised at how many decent fans are here. Too bad their are a bunch of obnoxious ones who make the good ones look bad.

I don't disagree with you about Kerfoot. Just because a couple of people in the media pencil him in to the 3rd line C spot doesn't mean that Babcock will. Toronto has other people that can play 3rd and 4th line C. If Kerfoot ends up playing the wing then fine.

Don't kid yourself though. This trade is Kadri and Rosen for Barrie and Kerfoot. Barrie is 1 season before UFA, so that is why COL is paying half his salary.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Barrie is a fast, dynamic, puck rushing dman. Stylistically he's like Rielly.

Shattenkirk is none of that. Shattenkirk was a smart PP QB with a nice shot.

Except with his defensive ability, he's a lot closer to Jake Gardiner because unlike Morgan Rielly. He's not good enough defensively to shut down top pairing competition. I've watched enough of Barrie to know that is not happening if we want to win, and everything I have read about him supports the exact same thing. Unless you have some stats that can say otherwise, but I haven't found any that support him being anything more than a mediocre defenseman, and that's when he's in a cushier role than both Rielly and Gardiner no less.

So stylistically they may be different types of offensive defensemen (although Shattenkirk was/is a strong skater with puck-rushing capabilities so they are not drastically different), but I'm still using them in the same sort of role and valuing them similarly. If you would prefer we can call Barrie a better version of Jake Gardiner, but that still leaves him as a 2nd pairing sheltered PP defenseman to me and I will value him as such.

I am capping him out at 4 x 7.5-8 mill. Really, that is already pushing it because I think he should have to impress us before he earns that kind of money. It's far more likely that by the end of the year he is the type of guy I say we should not sign under any realistic circumstance, just like I said with both Shattenkirk and Gardiner. We will have guys who will excel in offensive situations coming up (Sandin and Liljegren at least, plus Dermott), and while none of them may end up as good as Barrie offensively, they are far more likely to be the type of well-rounded defensemen the Leafs will need to win cups. I like our chances of getting a guy like Muzzin for similar or less term and at a lower AAV, while being more useful.

 

[zeke]

Except with his defensive ability, he's a lot closer to Jake Gardiner because unlike Morgan Rielly. He's not good enough defensively to shut down top pairing competition. I've watched enough of Barrie to know that is not happening if we want to win, and everything I have read about him supports the exact same thing. Unless you have some stats that can say otherwise, but I haven't found any that support him being anything more than a mediocre defenseman, and that's when he's in a cushier role than both Rielly and Gardiner no less.

So stylistically they may be different types of offensive defensemen (although Shattenkirk was/is a strong skater with puck-rushing capabilities so they are not drastically different), but I'm still using them in the same sort of role and valuing them similarly. If you would prefer we can call Barrie a better version of Jake Gardiner, but that still leaves him as a 2nd pairing sheltered PP defenseman to me and I will value him as such.

I am capping him out at 4 x 7.5-8 mill. Really, that is already pushing it because I think he should have to impress us before he earns that kind of money. It's far more likely that by the end of the year he is the type of guy I say we should not sign under any realistic circumstance, just like I said with both Shattenkirk and Gardiner. We will have guys who will excel in offensive situations coming up (Sandin and Liljegren at least, plus Dermott), and while none of them may end up as good as Barrie offensively, they are far more likely to be the type of well-rounded defensemen the Leafs will need to win cups. I like our chances of getting a guy like Muzzin for similar or less term and at a lower AAV, while being more useful.

He's not as good as Rielly, but is most definitely similar stylistically.

Shattenkirk is simply not a comparable - his even strength offense was never, ever close to Barrie's elite top-5 even strength production, which is no surprise given that he is nowhere near the dynamic player with the puck that Barrie is. Barrie has been the #1 blueline puck mover for his team for his entire career, and been very good at it. Shattenkirk has only ever been tried in that role once - in NYR the past 2yrs - and failed miserably.

You are deliberately choosing the most negative example you can find, even though it doesn't hold up stylistically or statistically.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Why do you leaf fans think Kerfoot is a centre? You guys basing it on the amount of faceoffs? Ask any Avs fan they will tell you he was terrible when he played centre, and got most of his points on the pp or as a winger with Mak. If you guys would see this trade without homer glasses, you would see how bad this trade was. Even if the leafs were willing to use more then half their cap next season to sign one of 5 spots on D that needs to be filled, Barrie knows if he hits ufa he can play for a team in the west, possibly his hometown where there has been mutual interest for ever. Soong term its Kadri and Rosen, for Kerfoot. Thats a really bad trade. I dont usually post in other teams threads, but the leaf fans tend to make every single thread aboutvthe leafs somehow, so I thought id give it a try. I have to admit, that im surprised at how many decent fans are here. Too bad their are a bunch of obnoxious ones who make the good ones look bad.

If, as you so pessimistically suggest, the trade boils down to Rosen and Kadri for Kerfoot, it's probably still a win for the Leafs, as you will likely see.

 

[kb]

If, as you so pessimistically suggest, the trade boils down to Rosen and Kadri for Kerfoot, it's probably still a win for the Leafs, as you will likely see.

I think come playoff time it's Rosen for Barrie and Kerfoot.

 

[Koolboss]

If, as you so pessimistically suggest, the trade boils down to Rosen and Kadri for Kerfoot, it's probably still a win for the Leafs, as you will likely see.

How is that a win for Leafs? lol
Care to explain?

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[Sam Spade]

Isn’t Barrie from a wealthy family? How much money do you guys think he would ask anyway

Not on topic at all but the combined wealth of the Rielly, Kerfoot and Barrie families is staggering. It has to be tops in the league in "coming from money".

 

[Its not your fault]

Not on topic at all but the combined wealth of the Rielly, Kerfoot and Barrie families is staggering. It has to be tops in the league in "coming from money".

Never knew this that's interesting if nothing less.

 

[biotk]

Why do you leaf fans think Kerfoot is a centre? You guys basing it on the amount of faceoffs? Ask any Avs fan they will tell you he was terrible when he played centre, and got most of his points on the pp or as a winger with Mak.

Kefoot didn't get most of his points while as a winger with MacKinnon. Not even close. That is an embarrassingly stupid thing to say, and if most Avs fans "know that" then most Avs know nothing.

Kerfoot had 22 points at 5v5. He had 3 points at 5v5 with MacKinnon in 221.01 TOI. His P/60 at 5v5 with MacKinnon was 0.81 and without MacKinnon was 1.55.

Players he did better with (and usually, much, much better with) than MacKinnon include: Barrie, Jost, Wilson, Cole, Compher, Zadorov, Girard, Nemeth, Andrighetto, Calvert, Dries, Soderberg, Nieto, Graves and Brassard.

You will notice that Rant and Landeskog were not on that list as well, which is not surprising because all three of Mac, Rant and Land suck balls unless all 3 of them are together.

In non-5v5 ES situations Kerfoot got another 2 points in 22.59 TOI with MacKinnon and another 2 points in 16.61 TOI (again better without MacKinnon.

He had 8 of his 16 PP points with MacKinnon.

This is one of the reason why I feel that fans of a team are the absolute last people you should trust for accurate information about their players. Their bias makes them less informed that people who know nothing about their team.

 

[PromisedLand]

Not on topic at all but the combined wealth of the Rielly, Kerfoot and Barrie families is staggering. It has to be tops in the league in "coming from money".

Dubas is working to make connections instead of making leafs a better team

 

[ACC1224]

Not on topic at all but the combined wealth of the Rielly, Kerfoot and Barrie families is staggering. It has to be tops in the league in "coming from money".

Hyman comes from money as well.

** Nylander and Kapanen also.

 

[zeke]

Why do you leaf fans think Kerfoot is a centre? You guys basing it on the amount of faceoffs? Ask any Avs fan they will tell you he was terrible when he played centre, and got most of his points on the pp or as a winger with Mak. If you guys would see this trade without homer glasses, you would see how bad this trade was. Even if the leafs were willing to use more then half their cap next season to sign one of 5 spots on D that needs to be filled, Barrie knows if he hits ufa he can play for a team in the west, possibly his hometown where there has been mutual interest for ever. Soong term its Kadri and Rosen, for Kerfoot. Thats a really bad trade. I dont usually post in other teams threads, but the leaf fans tend to make every single thread aboutvthe leafs somehow, so I thought id give it a try. I have to admit, that im surprised at how many decent fans are here. Too bad their are a bunch of obnoxious ones who make the good ones look bad.

We like truth, not lies.

Kerfoot Even Strength Linemates, Career:

1.Jost 616:06, 17pts, 1.66p/60, +1.3xgfrel
2.Wilson 537:04, 14pts, 1.56p/60, +4.9xgfrel
3.Compher 492:06, 11pts, 1.34p/60, -0.4xgfrel
4.Andrighetto 364:43, 13pts, 2.14p/60, +2.8xgfrel
5.MacKinnon 273:37, 7pts , 1.53p/60, -0.6xgfrel
6.Landeskog 260:07, 5pts, 1.15p/60, +7.8xgfrel
7.Yakupov 243:18, 8pts, 1.97p/60, -1.0xgfrel
8.Rantanen 208:06, 4pts, 1.15p/60, -4.5xgfrel
9.Calvert 134:16, 3pts, 1.34p/60, +8.6xgfrel
10.Bourque 113:45, 1pts, 0.53p/60, -1.7xgfrel
11.Soderberg 112:31, 4pts, 2.13p/60, +3.6xgfrel
12.Greer 74:42, 2pts, 1.61p/60, -3.0xgfrel
13.Duchene 72:46, 3pts, 2.47p/60, +6.0xgfrel
14.Nieto 72:22, 5pts, 4.15p/60, +8.6xgfrel
15.Comeau 44:45, 3pts, 4.02p/60, +18.1xgfrel


1. As you can see, Kerfoot has spent the vast majority of his career centering Jost, Wilson, Compher, and Andrighetto. (And avs fans will tell you that jost and wilson were definitely not centers there).

2. Kerfoot outproduced all those wingers, none of whom are even established 3rd line producers.

3. Kerfoot produced at a solid 2nd line rate with those wingers, not just a 3rd line rate.

4. Kerfoot produced at as good or better a rate than kadri did in his 3rd line role last year.

5. Kerfoot spent relatively little time filling in on the first line.

6. His time with 2 of Mac/Landy/Rants was actually some of his least productive time, and deflated his production, not inflated.

7. See that scoring rate and and xgf rate he put up centering those 4 3rd line wingers up top there? That's exactly what we expect from him this year, which is better than what we got from kadri this year.

8.speaking of kadri, all us leafs fans were pretty worried by his poor performance last year, and saw signs of an early decline due to the style he plays. Kerfoot and Barrie are both coming off two very good years, while kadri is coming off two straight years of significant decline.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

How much you wanna bet Babcock will be whining about depth at the year end presser next year?

The fact that he did it this year along with subtlety criticizing the Muzzin move really pissed me off.

But at the time it was true, because at the time Dubas didn't do enough to improve the defense Muzzin was grwat but not enough, there was no NHL caliber 4th line center, there was no NHL caliber backup goalie so those comments at the time were fair and 100% right.

Since then Dubas has done A LOT to improve the depth, now you have Barrie Ceci Harpour and schmaltz come in on defense , Now you have Spezza replacing Gauthier , now you have Neviurth coming in on a PTO and if he's healthy I think he makes the team which would greatly improve the goaltending depth .

Now if Babcock was to be critical of the depth I would be more annyed but at the time it was right because it was true and thus 100% fair.

 

[Sypher04]

But at the time it was true, because at the time Dubas didn't do enough to improve the defense Muzzin was grwat but not enough, there was no NHL caliber 4th line center, there was no NHL caliber backup goalie so those comments at the time were fair and 100% right.

Since then Dubas has done A LOT to improve the depth, now you have Barrie Ceci Harpour and schmaltz come in on defense , Now you have Spezza replacing Gauthier , now you have Neviurth coming in on a PTO and if he's healthy I think he makes the team which would greatly improve the goaltending depth .

Now if Babcock was to be critical of the depth I would be more annyed but at the time it was right because it was true and thus 100% fair.

Babcock's comments were debatable at best, but more importantly had no business being aired in public on the eve of the playoffs.

 

[ShaneFalco]

But at the time it was true, because at the time Dubas didn't do enough to improve the defense Muzzin was grwat but not enough, there was no NHL caliber 4th line center, there was no NHL caliber backup goalie so those comments at the time were fair and 100% right.

Since then Dubas has done A LOT to improve the depth, now you have Barrie Ceci Harpour and schmaltz come in on defense , Now you have Spezza replacing Gauthier , now you have Neviurth coming in on a PTO and if he's healthy I think he makes the team which would greatly improve the goaltending depth .

Now if Babcock was to be critical of the depth I would be more annyed but at the time it was right because it was true and thus 100% fair.

You don't whine to the media about your management team. The fact that he does, says a lot about him

 

[Suntouchable13]

But at the time it was true, because at the time Dubas didn't do enough to improve the defense Muzzin was grwat but not enough, there was no NHL caliber 4th line center, there was no NHL caliber backup goalie so those comments at the time were fair and 100% right.

Since then Dubas has done A LOT to improve the depth, now you have Barrie Ceci Harpour and schmaltz come in on defense , Now you have Spezza replacing Gauthier , now you have Neviurth coming in on a PTO and if he's healthy I think he makes the team which would greatly improve the goaltending depth .

Now if Babcock was to be critical of the depth I would be more annyed but at the time it was right because it was true and thus 100% fair.

Saying things like that in the media is not productive. Dubas could have easily complained about Babcock’s player deployment and they way their specialty teams were coached in the media, but he didn’t.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Saying things like that in the media is not productive. Dubas could have easily complained about Babcock’s player deployment and they way their specialty teams were coached in the media, but he didn’t.

Instead, like a professional and a leader, he put all of the blame on himself

 

[zeke]

But at the time it was true, because at the time Dubas didn't do enough to improve the defense Muzzin was grwat but not enough, there was no NHL caliber 4th line center, there was no NHL caliber backup goalie so those comments at the time were fair and 100% right.

Since then Dubas has done A LOT to improve the depth, now you have Barrie Ceci Harpour and schmaltz come in on defense , Now you have Spezza replacing Gauthier , now you have Neviurth coming in on a PTO and if he's healthy I think he makes the team which would greatly improve the goaltending depth .

Now if Babcock was to be critical of the depth I would be more annyed but at the time it was right because it was true and thus 100% fair.

he had one of the best rosters in hockey.

him insulting his own team heading into the playoffs was pathetic. not even coaches of actual bad rosters do that..

 

[Suntouchable13]

Instead, like a professional and a leader, he put all of the blame on himself

Man, I would have loved being in the season ending meeting of Dubas and Shanny with Babcock.

 

[IPS]

You don't whine to the media about your management team. The fact that he does, says a lot about him

Tells me all I need to know. Why not keep that shit behind closed doors? That would have been the professional thing to do.

Saying things like that in the media is not productive. Dubas could have easily complained about Babcock’s player deployment and they way their specialty teams were coached in the media, but he didn’t.

The media was practically begging him to give them some juicy drama headlines but he refused. Instead, he just kept the focus on himself and what he could have done better.

Now that's f***ing professional.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

he had one of the best rosters in hockey.

him insulting his own team heading into the playoffs was pathetic. not even coaches of actual bad rosters do that..

He did , but there were spots in the lineup where there were not NHL caliber players and no effort wad made to address that, now most of those spots are filled,there are some questions on the bottom pair due to Dermott being hurt but the rest of the roster has been solidifed