Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 10

[seventieslord]

Procedure

• You will be presented with ~15 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to @seventieslord
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-5 players will be added to The List

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 220 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• Batis, BenchBrawl, bobholly39, buffalowing88, Dennis Bonvie, DN28, Dr John Carlson, Hockey Outsider, MXD, Professor What, ResilientBeast, seventieslord, tarheelhockey, ted2019, TheDevilMadeMe, Vilica, Weztex

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates
  
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, March 12th at midnight and continue through Sunday, March 14th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, March 15th.


Vote 9 Candidates

• Alexei Kasatonov
• Dale Hawerchuk
• Ebbie Goodfellow
• Hod Stuart
• Hooley Smith
• Jacques Laperriere
• Jan Suchy
• Johnny Bucyk
• Marian Hossa
• Marty Barry
• Paul Kariya
• Shea Weber
• Victor Hedman
• Vladimir Petrov

Click to read more...

 

[seventieslord]

I went with 14 names this round because the next name on the list is closer on the aggregate list to the 2nd player after him, than he is to the player immediately above him (it was a bit of a natural break).

There was an even bigger break two spots before that, but if I went with that one, we'd have just 12 names this round.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Just gonna go ahead and ask the obvious question as a leadoff:

Is there anyone eligible who's more relevant to his generation than Hedman and Weber?

Stuart for sure, and if all generations are held equal then he's our easy #1 here. But there are obvious reasons not to hold 1905 equal to 2020.

Maybe Kariya? Maybe Thompson?

There are several other players here that I like -- Hooley Smith, Jacques Laperriere, Marian Hossa, Ebbie Goodfellow -- but each of them is "depth" for his generation. Weber and Hedman aren't depth, they're top-tier stars. And the context for their being top-tier stars is a large, international, fully developed modern league with long schedules, long playoffs, lots of international competition.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Great new candidates

About time Marty Barry shows up! He would have competed for my #1 LAST round. Best playoff performer of the 1930s? Statistically, he might be. Among the best regular season records too. IMO, he's a rare old timer we really underrated in the HOH Top Players by position projects.

Poor Jacques Laperriere - he was starting to look pretty good, but now he has to compete with Hedman, Weber, and Goodfellow among D.

Poor Hooley Smith too - now he has to compete with Goodfellow and Barry among contemporaries.

 

[MXD]

...Wow. Ebbie Goodfellow, Victor Hedman, Shea Weber and Marty Barry might just be the strongest new foursome (relative to stage in the process) since that heavy goalie round in the beginning. I don't think they even have a chance at making it past 5th on my ballot. The only one who MAYBE wouldn't have been my 1st place ranked player last round is Goodfellow, and I'm not even sure about that. Suchy and Hossa are pretty strong too.

 

[seventieslord]

I feel there's been a groundswell of support demanding Hedman's inclusion for a while now. He's probably getting in fast.

I don't even see much sense in discussing him, he seems to have been pre-coronated our #146 player. However, I've always wondered why he never earned more icetime on the Lightning. In the middle of his age 30 season, his career TOI average is just 23:06. Compare that to other elite defensemen by about the same age. Karlsson, Doughty, Weber, Keith - all significantly ahead of him in this regard. And then there's Suter, who may be a TOI outlier due to his unique stamina and the lack of depth on Minnesota's defense for years. But then you haver other comparable role players like Pietrangelo and Josi (who we'd all agree are a step below Hedman in skills and career value) and even a player seen mostly as offensive, Kris Letang, all significantly ahead of Hedman in career TOI. In four of the last five seasons, Hedman has finally been given the TOI befitting a true, elite, all-situations #1 defenseman. But why did it take so long for him to earn "big boy" ice time when it didn't take those other guys long at all?

Those who are clamouring for Hedman's immediate addition to the list aren't necessarily wrong, I haven't thought too hard about where I'll put him but I think he'll get my vote. But this is all based on the last 5 seasons including this one, isn't it? Because before that, he was "just" a 22 minute player with less than half a point per game on his career and a few scattered norris votes.

 

[The Macho King]

About f***ing time boyos.

Hedman #1 in our hearts and heads AMIRITE!

 

[The Macho King]

I feel there's been a groundswell of support demanding Hedman's inclusion for a while now. He's probably getting in fast.

I don't even see much sense in discussing him, he seems to have been pre-coronated our #146 player. However, I've always wondered why he never earned more icetime on the Lightning. In the middle of his age 30 season, his career TOI average is just 23:06. Compare that to other elite defensemen by about the same age. Karlsson, Doughty, Weber, Keith - all significantly ahead of him in this regard. And then there's Suter, who may be a TOI outlier due to his unique stamina and the lack of depth on Minnesota's defense for years. But then you haver other comparable role players like Pietrangelo and Josi (who we'd all agree are a step below Hedman in skills and career value) and even a player seen mostly as offensive, Kris Letang, all significantly ahead of Hedman in career TOI. In four of the last five seasons, Hedman has finally been given the TOI befitting a true, elite, all-situations #1 defenseman. But why did it take so long for him to earn "big boy" ice time when it didn't take those other guys long at all?

Those who are clamouring for Hedman's immediate addition to the list aren't necessarily wrong, I haven't thought too hard about where I'll put him but I think he'll get my vote. But this is all based on the last 5 seasons including this one, isn't it? Because before that, he was "just" a 22 minute player with less than half a point per game on his career and a few scattered norris votes.

I can discuss this a bit later as a guy who has watched nearly every game the dude has ever played. TLR - stud playoff guy, coaching decision to roll three pairs no matter what at ES, and a bit of a late bloomer. Some of those factors have recently changed with Cooper leaning very heavily on Hedman.

 

[MXD]

About f***ing time boyos.

Hedman #1 in our hearts and heads AMIRITE!

To be honest, he still has SOME longevity as an elite player issues.

 

[The Macho King]

To be honest, he still has SOME longevity as an elite player issues.

Six years top 10 in Norris voting (not counting this year) in a rather deep field - especially on a team that until the latter half of the decade was not very good seems... fine? And one of those years he was not in top 10 of Norris voting he had a Smythe-worthy run to the Finals.

That's what I want to dig in more to, btw - his 2015 run. I'll do it later but that run was his coming out party and I feel like it got completely forgotten because Tampa didn't win.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Great new candidates

About time Marty Barry shows up! He would have competed for my #1 LAST round. Best playoff performer of the 1930s? Statistically, he might be. Among the best regular season records too. IMO, he's a rare old timer we really underrated in the HOH Top Players by position projects.

Poor Jacques Laperriere - he was on the verge of making it last time, but now he has to compete with Hedman, Weber, and Goodfellow among D.

None of whom have clearly superior regular+postseasons (Hedman maybe) IMO. It's a really nice group of players to evaluate though!

Laperriere: (defensive dman unlike others)

Norris = 1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5, 8, 9

AS = 1, 1, 2, 2

Calder winner

Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 8
Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 8

There are 17 defensemen in the top hundred on both usage charts. Sorted by the product of the two usages (PP% times PK%), they are - Orr, Bourque, Potvin, Leetch, Laperriere, Lidstrom, Pronger, Salming, Pilote, Lapointe, Blake, Larson, Chelios, Vadnais, Beck, Hatcher, Desjardins.

The sheer volume of minutes this man played is elite, even in an all time sense. 47% of team's ES minutes. 50% on the PP. 76% on the PK.

Sure he missed some playoff time during a few other runs and Tremblay absolutely was the go to guy more than Lappy in the postseason but over the middle 3 title teams he was on

68, 69, and 71 SC winners he had:

47 games
21 points
+24

None of the other 3 have more AS nods. No other player has more/ clear cut better Norris record. No other player was a part of as many Cup runs.

He was a huge minute (ice always tilted positive as well), award winning Dman, who likely didn't get the added benefit of gaining rep based on points finishes. And despite missing parts of multiple playoff runs he still managed to get 3 solid performances on title winners.

Let's also not forget he came into the league as a Calder winner, 2nd team AS at 22 (winning the Norris 2 years later). And he was still playing well enough to get a 5th place finish in 73, at age 31. Was an AS and had a 4th place finish at 28.

I get it, he's boring. But for a boring guy he sure has as much/more hardware than most folks on the board right now.

 

[Professor What]

I've already said that I feel like I dropped the ball on Hedman, having him way too low on my initial list. I think it's the longevity issue that kind of messed me up on him. But, when I think about some of the defensemen we've seen in recent years, a list that includes him and Weber, along with the likes of Karlsson, Doughty, and Keith, and I realize that he fits in very well with the other names on that list, he looks good here. I think Weber is an obvious strong candidate, as he's one of the handful of best defensemen without a Norris win. Goodfellow and Barry are strong competitors as well, and they're going to compete for top spots on my list. I've been riding Thompson for a couple of rounds, and I was very high on Stuart last round, but they've got some competition now. Suchy is definitely a top 200 player for me, but it's just not time for him yet.

Honestly, I would have thought that both Laperierre and Kasatonov would have started getting more serious from me at this point, but it's just not in the cards for them right now. I've got a feeling that if we were to do something like this again in a couple of years, this is a round that would stand out as one where we learned some key refining lessons.

 

[MXD]

Six years top 10 in Norris voting (not counting this year) in a rather deep field - especially on a team that until the latter half of the decade was not very good seems... fine? And one of those years he was not in top 10 of Norris voting he had a Smythe-worthy run to the Finals.

That's what I want to dig in more to, btw - his 2015 run. I'll do it later but that run was his coming out party and I feel like it got completely forgotten because Tampa didn't win.

Well, it's fine. It's just that he doesn't have much else. Now, compare that to Shea Weber, who can easily be qualified as an elite up to (and including) 2018-19 (and yes, he was very still obviously elite in 18-19, just injured for too many games to receive Norris support).

My point is, prior to 2013-14, Hedman didn't really do anything that moves the needle at this level.

 

[The Macho King]

Well, it's fine. It's just that he doesn't have much else. Now, compare that to Shea Weber, who can easily be qualified as an elite up to (and including) 2018-19 (and yes, he was very still obviously elite in 18-19, just injured for too many games to receive Norris support).

We're talking about a guy still in his prime. I assume when we do a similar project five years from now he will end up in the top 100 easily. But yes as of now he does not have the longevity of Weber.

Also it should be noted that Weber is a notoriously poor playoff performer, while Hedman is anything but. In the five Conference Finals+ runs Tampa has been on during Hedman's career, in four of them he was by far our best player (and in the one he wasn't he was a second year player). In fact, a healthy Hedman has made it to the conference finals in all but one year he has made the playoffs (that year being 2014 when Anders Lindback was Tampa's starting goaltender (who posted a robust .881 in the three games he started before losing the net to Kristers Gudlevskis in game 4 of those playoffs).

 

[MXD]

We're talking about a guy still in his prime. I assume when we do a similar project five years from now he will end up in the top 100 easily. But yes as of now he does not have the longevity of Weber.

Also it should be noted that Weber is a notoriously poor playoff performer, while Hedman is anything but. In the five Conference Finals+ runs Tampa has been on during Hedman's career, in four of them he was by far our best player (and in the one he wasn't he was a second year player). In fact, a healthy Hedman has made it to the conference finals in all but one year he has made the playoffs (that year being 2014 when Anders Lindback was Tampa's starting goaltender (who posted a robust .881 in the three games he started before losing the net to Kristers Gudlevskis in game 4 of those playoffs).

I'm not advocating for Weber, no need to go on such a tangent.

 

[The Macho King]

I'm not advocating for Weber, no need to go on such a tangent.

I don't think a) it's a tangent, or b) an assault. These two are going to be compared this round, so pointing out the massive delta in their playoff resumes is a worthwhile expense of my time, energy, and love.

 

[MXD]

I don't think a) it's a tangent, or b) an assault. These two are going to be compared this round, so pointing out the massive delta in their playoff resumes is a worthwhile expense of my time, energy, and love.

Probably an appropriate occasion to point out once again that I'm not doing any advocacy.

 

[seventieslord]

Six years top 10 in Norris voting (not counting this year) in a rather deep field

I wouldn't even bother counting that 7th and 9th - over the course of those two seasons, Hedman appeared on 43 of 287 ballots, so approximately one in 7 voters thought Hedman was even top-5 in the league.

this is not nothing - if we were talking about Brent Seabrook or Robert Svehla we'd celebrate those seasons as the two where he just about cracked the elite group. But for a player with a smythe and 4 all-star teams, in the running for 146th best player of all-time.... it is practically nothing.

 

[The Macho King]

I wouldn't even bother counting that 7th and 9th - over the course of those two seasons, Hedman appeared on 43 of 287 ballots, so approximately one in 7 voters thought Hedman was even top-5 in the league.

this is not nothing - if we were talking about Brent Seabrook or Robert Svehla we'd celebrate those seasons as the two where he just about cracked the elite group. But for a player with a smythe and 4 all-star teams, in the running for 146th best player of all-time.... it is practically nothing.

I don't think it's much in setting up his peak, but I think it's important in showing we're not talking about a flash in the pan here. Those aren't the seasons that will get him in - it's his Smythe, his playoff performance generally, and the fact that he's been the consensus best D in the league for at least three seasons running.

His 3rd place finish in 2017 is more impressive than most player's wins frankly. I think in hindsight we see a win from Burns and second place from Karlsson, we have to scratch our heads as to why Hedman - who was equivalent offensively on a team completely gutted by injuries while being elite defensively - somehow ends up as third on the ballot.

The answer is of course he had never finished top 3 before and voting patterns currently range from odd to very odd.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He was a huge minute (ice always tilted positive as well), award winning Dman, who likely didn't get the added benefit of gaining rep based on points finishes. And despite missing parts of multiple playoff runs he still managed to get 3 solid performances on title winners.

Let's also not forget he came into the league as a Calder winner, 2nd team AS at 22 (winning the Norris 2 years later). And he was still playing well enough to get a 5th place finish in 73, at age 31. Was an AS and had a 4th place finish at 28.

I get it, he's boring. But for a boring guy he sure has as much/more hardware than most folks on the board right now.

I think Laperriere may be getting penalized a bit too much for having missed playoff runs. It's not like Terry Harper was stepping in there and leading the Habs to glory. JC Tremblay was good enough to pull down multiple postseason All Star nods, good enough to make the Summit Series team, good enough to be regarded as one of the best players outside the HHOF. On a good team, he was good enough to lead a playoff run.

He'll be in for a rough ride here against Hedman and Weber, but in the context of having already added guys like Quackenbush and Langway, I'm not seeing all that much negative feedback in a couple of missed playoff series where Tremblay stepped forward to shine.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I think Laperriere may be getting penalized a bit too much for having missed playoff runs. It's not like Terry Harper was stepping in there and leading the Habs to glory. JC Tremblay was good enough to pull down multiple postseason All Star nods, good enough to make the Summit Series team, good enough to be regarded as one of the best players outside the HHOF. On a good team, he was good enough to lead a playoff run.

He'll be in for a rough ride here against Hedman and Weber, but in the context of having already added guys like Quackenbush and Langway, I'm not seeing all that much negative feedback in a couple of missed playoff series where Tremblay stepped forward to shine.

I'd care more about his missed playoff runs if he didn't have the nice runs in 68, 69, and 71, so yes, I agree with you totally.

Even with the playoff games missed, he still has a solid peak to stand on in the playoffs and fair or not, he was a key secondary piece on 3 SC playoff runs. Hedman has 1 elite playoff run and Cup. Goodfellow has 2 strong playoff runs to his name? Weber has absolutely no playoff record to speak of. It's downright poor for a player of his regular season accolades. I know there will be the counter of "didn't play on great teams" but consider the the 3 times he went past the first round in Nashville he had 15 points in 36 games and was a -5. There's just nothing to feel good about over 10 separate playoff runs for him and it's not like his Norris/AS (2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10 + 1, 1, 2, 2) record is even better than Laperriere's (1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5, 8, 9 + 1, 1, 2, 2,)

His Norris/AS record is at least as good or better than any of the D options left IMO. Especially for a guy who was never finishing up the scoring charts.

Personally I'd rather Weber/Hedman gotten in 2-3 rounds ago and guys like Pronovost ended up here with Laperriere because I think the gap that will end up existing will look, odd.

 

[DitchMarner]

Hossa, eh?

Great player, but it seems a bit too early for him to be an option. I see him in the same tier as Alfredsson, Robitaille and Recchi. Also, I'm sure a number of people would say Toews > Hossa all-time.

I guess the question is: Was he ever a team's clear-cut best player in his entire career?

In OTT he may have been better than Alfredsson at times, but I don't think he was the face of the franchise. In ATL he had to share the spotlight with Kovalchuk, who may have had more star power. In PIT he obviously wasn't as good as Crosby or Malkin. In DET he was one of a few big name players. In his time with CHI, the team's big three consisted of Toews, Kane and Keith.

 

[ted2019]

Back from holiday and back to the grind. 3 of my 5 from last vote made it.

 

[ted2019]

• Alexei Kasatonov
• Dale Hawerchuk
• Ebbie Goodfellow
• Hod Stuart
• Hooley Smith
• Jacques Laperriere
• Jan Suchy
• Johnny Bucyk
• Marian Hossa
• Marty Barry
• Paul Kariya
• Shea Weber
• Tiny Thompson
• Victor Hedman

Hedman/Ebbie/Laperriere/Weber/Suchy should be interesting.
Marty Berry is a name I want to look at the most
Marian Hossa is a I don't know if he should be here yet.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Norris/All-Star records of the available candidates

My method of compiling All-Star records for pre-Norris defensemen (Goodfellow) here: Making sense of All Star Defense voting 1931-1943

For the Norris, my cutcoff is "at least one top 3 vote:"

I'm commenting on competition for any top 3 finishes:

Goodfellow: 2, 2, 3, 5, 5, 8, 10 (also 3, 4 at center)

30-31: 3rd Team Center
31-31: 4th Team Center
33-34: 10th
34-35: 5th
35-36: 3rd
36-37: 2nd
38-39: 8th
39-40: 2nd
40-41: 5th

When he was 3rd in Center voting in 30-31, he was behind Morenz and Boucher. Goodfellow was also 4th in Hart voting that year.
When he was 3rd in combined D voting in 35-36, he was behind Shore and Babe Siebert.
When he was 2nd in combined D voting in 36-37, he was behind Babe Siebert, ahead of Earl Seibert. Goodfellow was also 3rd in Hart voting that year (behind Babe Siebert and a different defenseman Lionel Conacher)
When he was 2nd in combined D voting in 39-40, he was behind Clapper, ahead of Art Coulter. But he won the Hart Trophy (over Clapper and Coulter)

Laperriere: 1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 9

63-64: 4th
64-65: 2nd
65-66: 1st
66-67: 8th
67-68: 5th
68-69: 6th
68-70: 4th
72-73: 5th
73-74: 9th

When he finished 2nd in 64-65, he was below Pilote and beat out Gadsby.
When he won the Norris in 65-66, he beat out Pilote and Pat Stapleton.

Weber: 2, 2, 3, 4, 7, 7, 8, 10

08-09: 4th
09-10: 7th
10-11: 2nd
11-12: 2nd
12-13: 8th
13-14: 3rd
14-15: 4th
15-16: 10th
16-17: 7th

Weber was runner up in 10-11 to Lidstrom ahead of Chara.
He was runner up in 11-12 to Karlsson ahead of Chara
He was 3rd in 13-14 behind Keith and Chara.

Hedman: 1, 3, 3, 3, 7, 9

13-14: 9th
15-16: 7th
16-17: 3rd
17-18: 1st
18-19: 3rd
19-20: 3rd

Hedman finished 3rd in 16-17 behind Burns/Karlsson.
He won the Norris in 17-18 over Doughty/Subban
He finished 3rd in 18-19 behind Giordano/Burns
He finished 3rd in 19-20 behind Josi/Carlsson

_____________________________

What their records would look like if I "removed" anyone already added to our list. (Note this may be unfair to Hedman, who is competing with guys who haven't completely their legacies):

Goodfellow: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 6 (also, 1, 3 at center)
Laperriere: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, ? ? would technically be 4th but in reality Laperriere was 9th with only minimal votes
Weber: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8
Hedman: 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 5