Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 10

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ResilientBeast

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Jul 1, 2012
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Didn't even notice Suchy at first glance, I think he and Petrov need to go in ahead of Kasatonov right?

Kariya, Goodfellow, Petrov, Hedman/Weber/Laperriere seem to be the contenders for my spots with Barry lurking on the edge.

I still like Stuart and Hooley but they really got the shaft from the new adds.

Hossa & Bucyk still feel too early, but once Kariya is gone I'll warm up to Bucyk
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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My thing about Suchy is how good was the Czech league back in the 67-74 time frame. I mean I see that he is often called the "European" Bobby Orr. What does that mean in the context of things?

I guess when a defenseman leads his (pro) league in scoring, Orr would be the logical comparable.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Didn't even notice Suchy at first glance, I think he and Petrov need to go in ahead of Kasatonov right?

Kariya, Goodfellow, Petrov, Hedman/Weber/Laperriere seem to be the contenders for my spots with Barry lurking on the edge.

I still like Stuart and Hooley but they really got the shaft from the new adds.

Hossa & Bucyk still feel too early, but once Kariya is gone I'll warm up to Bucyk

The case for Barry over Kariya is their seasonal finishes vs peers (VsX or top 10 finishes) plus Barry's playoff performances (1937 Retro Conn Smythe, only star player of the 1930s whose PPP doesn't go down in the playoffs).

What's the case for Kariya over Barry?

(To be clear, I would have probably voted Barry over Schriner, so this isn't necessarily an anti-Kariya post)

Agree Kariya > Bucyk
 
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ImporterExporter

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Jun 18, 2013
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Yeah I view the late 20s/early to mid 30s as one of the stronger eras. If we went through the list I think we would have a pretty strong contingent from that era represented - especially as a percentage of the league.

Agree regarding late 20's/early 30's, through about 36/37.

After that there is no more Morenz. No more Bill Cook, King Clancy, Lionel Conacher, Sylvio Mantha.

Players who would be done following 37/38?

Frank Boucher
Aurele Joliat
Ivan Johnson

Guys who past their primes by 1938?

Charlie Conacher
Nels Stewart

Eddie Shore was done in 1940.

The late 30's through WWII were some pretty lean years in terms of talent. Especially top end talent. One can see that from the Hart voting in this time frame.
 

DN28

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My thing about Suchy is how good was the Czech league back in the 67-74 time frame. I mean I see that he is often called the "European" Bobby Orr. What does that mean in the context of things?

1967 to 1970 - CSSR league was getting stronger rapidly each season. Better than Swedish league, definitely worse than Soviet league. If I had to bet, average quality level of AHL would be slightly better, though it depends on rules, rink, refs etc. Having said that, Suchý was the best player on league's dynasty (Dukla Jihlava). In my opinion, Dukla Jihlava would beat most (if not all) of AHL teams in that time period in a best-of-seven series regardless of rules, rink, refs...

1970-1974 - The level of domestic Czechoslovak hockey is at its highest point ever (before or after). Change of rules (aggressive forchecking in all 3 zones) helped tremendously. The league got very physical - much more than today's NHL for example. You can read game reports of full bench brawls. Very often, you read injuries sustained in the game. Physical players started to be acclaimed by the press. In this time period, better Swedish teams stood no chance versus Czech bottom-dwelling teams in mutual match-ups. However, Soviet league was still significantly better than the CSSR league, no doubt about that. Dukla Jihlava couldn't defeat CSKA Moscow at all for instance. In my opinion, CSSR league was the 3rd best league in the world at this particular timeframe. Rapid expansion NHL + addition of WHA watered down AHL. Not convinced that even WHA was better in this timeframe than CSSR league.

However, I'd politely ask: is the quality of CSSR league even important? It's not about Suchý being best player in 3rd/4th best league in the world. It's about Suchý being 1st or 2nd best player in Europe in late 60s/early 70s. That's the crux of argument.

We all know 1970s and 1980s Euro hockey was of higher quality, but by how much? There is a dozen of non-NHL Euros added to the list from 1970s and 1980s, and just ONE from 1960s-early 1970s...
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Jan Suchý and other European defensemen from mid-60s to early 70s

I finally forced myself into writing a longer profile mainly about Jan Suchý’s prime. Suchý is probably the last well-known CSSR player of whom I felt the need to post my archive findings. This post also includes some secondary information about the state of Czech and other Euro d-men in the roughly 1965-1971 period. It doesn’t include anything about Suchý’s post-car accident career, since I’ve already covered that topic elsewhere.

1964-1965
Suchý’s first international season. I find nothing particular about him. František Tikal (WHC ‘65 All-Star and 1965 Directoriate’s Best Defenseman) was still considered by far the best Czechoslovak defenseman at this point. Suchý didn’t get a vote in tournament’s all-star voting. Coach Vladimír Kostka even wrote in winter 64-65 after the CSSR trip to Canada that Tikal could easily play in the NHL. It’s truly a shame that Tikal’s legacy have been tarnished by no one other than his 1965’ D partner in the CSSR lineup – Jan Suchý. Anyway, moving on…

1965-1966
I would cautiously refer of Suchý as the best Czechoslovak defenseman at this point. Not only that his league scoring jumped but he showed a great WHC performance. In the league, Suchý’s 32 points was good enough for the 13th place in the overall scoring (and of course the most among d-men). Dukla Jihlava (= Suchý’s team) improved in the standings and lost the title to ZKL Brno only through worse goal-differential.

But also Kopaná-Hokej magazine declared Jan Suchý, Stanislav Prýl and Jiří Holík as the three best CSSR players at the 1966 WHC, while Stadion magazine considered Jiří Holík as the best Czechoslovakian at the Ljublana 1966’ Championship… Suchý was the only CSSR d-man who did not register a single goal or assist so whatever the source of praise for his perfomance was, it surely hadn’t come from his offensive rushes.

1966-1967
Suchý probably became the best Czechoslovak player during this season. Dukla Jihlava won their first title and launched a dynasty lasting until 1974. Suchý was again the highest scoring d-men (he’d be one always from 1966 to 1970) while Dukla allowed the least amount of goals by a good margin.

I have two sources which together paints the picture. First, František Žák, former league player who observed the WHC ’67 in person, named Jozef Golonka and Jan Suchý as the only couple of players who did not disappoint.

Second, I have found Arkady Chernyshev’s list of best players at the Vienna 1967’ Championship in the Kopaná-Hokej interview. The list is following:

View attachment 375513

KH: “Which WHC players were the best to you?”

AC: “In goal – Martin. This Canadian is without a doubt the best goaltender over the last years. I would nominate our Konovalenko as the second goalie, and as a third – the American Wetzel.

Davydov was the best amongst defensemen. He played greatly in all the games and was almost flawless. That is very important in such esteemed tournament. Ragulin deserves a high praise too. From other teams’ defensemen, I would pick the Canadian Brewer and the CSSR player Suchý.

Firsov showed an outstanding game in the offense. He was certainly the best. I would name Starshinov as the second best. What a fantastic warrior who can play on the ice exactly what interests of the collective dictate. I would put the Swede Nils Nilsson on the third place, and on the fourth – Jaroslav Holík from the CSSR.”

So that’s two individuals that separately exalt Jan Suchý after otherwise horrible team performance by the Czechoslovaks (4th place at the WHC).

Furthermore, we do have already here a smaller, less-known award for the best Czechoslovak hockey players called Anketa internacionálů (can be loosely translated as The Poll of the Former National Team Players). I haven’t still found enough time to look more into this, but from what I remember, I believe the award results came from approximately 10 voters and the award was granted according to yearly – not seasonal (!) – performance. Jan Suchý is listed to win this award in 1967, which presumably means that circa 10 former players thought of him to be the CSSR player for the 2nd half of 66-67 and for the 1st half of 67-68 season.

…All this is to say that from the evidence at hand, I think we can cautiously give Jan Suchý a retro Golden Stick for the 1967 season.

A sidenote: under the information available, Suchý was likely contacted by an NHL team (Detroit Red Wings) for the first time during the summer of 1967.

1967-1968
Here’s where the real ride begins. Not only that Suchý is now playing his own league but he enters a discussion for the best player in Europe. His peak play happened in 1968-1971 and at the OG ’68, Suchý won the d-men all-star voting.

Czechoslovakia won silver but managed to upset the USSR 5:4 in quite an exciting spectacle. The game was definitely won in large part through clever coaching of Pitner&Kostka but as far as the individual players’ contributions go, Jan Suchý with his two-way game was arguably the best player on ice (hinted by the head of the CSSR hockey association Zdeněk Andršt in post-game interview).

From now on, we can see a consistent pattern with Suchý’s career – the ability to always play his best in deciding games. Thriving in the clutch Suchý also demonstrated in the League 1-2 months later. Although the 1960’s CSSR League did not offer any playoffs, a luck would have it that the previous champions (Dukla Jihlava and ZKL Brno) faced each other in the last round as the final game of the season. Jihlava was ahead 2 points but Brno would win the league with any win… The game ended with a 3:3 tie. How did the press evaluate the game?

“Big battles give birth to heroes. The Jihlavian Suchý becomes one in deciding league match between ZKL and Dukla. He stopped countless actions, blocked 17 shots with his own body, by himself several times endangered and once scored on Nadrchal. Jan Suchý is clearly the best hockey player of the season.”

To prove that Suchý wasn’t just a skater who got hot in high-pressure games but disappeared in low-key games, I will show you this list:

View attachment 375514

The list shows the final account of the best Czechoslovak players based on league games only. Reporters of Kopaná-Hokej magazine named the top goalie, d-man and forward after every game from the 67-68 season. Number behind the name reveals how many times a player was considered to be the best at his position in a particular game. 1968’ results transcripted from the picture above:

WRITERS EVALUATED:
Lacký – Suchý – Nedomanský

In the contest of journalists for the best players of the game, here is the final ranking:

Goaltenders: Lacký (23 ‘firsts’), Termer (19), Holeček (17), Kočí (16), Nadrchal (13), Dzurilla (12), Hovora, Wohl, Mikoláš and Valášek (11) etc.

Defensemen: Suchý (31), Pospíšil (25), Gregor (11), Ondřasina, Machač, Šíma and M. Beránek (10), Tajcnár (8), Masopust and Berek (7), etc.

Forwards: Nedomanský (13), Havel (11), Bavor and Černý (10), Ševčík, Jar. Holík and Hrbatý (8), Golonka (7), Jiří Holík and Hlinka (6) etc.”

What is absurd is that Suchý was declared the top d-man 31 times while playing 36 league games. It was 86% guaranteed that Suchý was going to be the best defender whenever a hockey game started and his lead over the rest is massive. I would also point out impressive result by Pospíšil suggesting he may have been a clear 2nd best Czech D already at this point in time, despite his otherwise a bit disappointing Olympics.

Jan Suchý would have been a landslide winner of a Golden Stick trophy for the best Czechoslovak hockey player if the voting was conducted already in spring of 1968.

A sidenote: I was surprised to find out that 34 y/o František Tikal, playing basically his last season, was still viewed as a sure thing for the National team lineup! Only thing which prevented his nomination was an injury/illness.

1968-1969
Now this was one of the best seasons from any European player ever. Defenseman Suchý famously ran through the finish line as the League’s leading scorer – 1 year before Bobby Orr achieved such feat in NHL. Suchý scored 56 points (30+26) in 34 games according to official game records. He created unofficial record of all-time high number of points scored in a single league game – Dukla won 14:3 over České Budějovice on 8. 2. 1969, and Suchý contributed with 9 points (5+4).

Statistically, the 1969’ edition of Dukla Jihlava is likely the most dominant Czech or Slovak team in history. 29 wins, 6 losses, 1 tie, 59 points out of 36 games and a goal-differential of 206:83 – no other team has fared better before or since. Four Dukla players occupied the top-10 scoring rank, three Dukla players appeared on the top-5 scoring list. Just to give you an idea of Suchý’s fame, here are the two headlines from the Československý sport from this time:

“Half of the Champion is Suchý”

“Forwards, learn from Suchý!”


Now to turn the focus on international stage, what else have I found? For the 69’ season specifically, you can find some praise about Suchý’s physical game. Coach Vladimír Kostka highlighted rising quality of CSSR defense’s physical game in winter 68-69 after several clashes with Canadian squads. Czech d-men were at this point considered better than Canadian ones because, while perhaps less stronger, they avoid penalties. In fairness, Kostka noted the physicality of all Czech d-men, not of Suchy concretely, but a sentence later he wrote that Suchý had been statistically the best d-man of that series…

Anyway, Suchý won WHC ‘69 all-star voting with 144 votes out of 150 ballots. He also received ‘69 Directoriate’s Best Defenseman award. CSSR finished the championship only third after worse goal-differential than Sweden and Soviet Union (all three teams had equal amount of points). Czechoslovaks might have come ahead if it wasn’t for Suchý’s injury causing him to miss the last game vs. Sweden. Still, Suchý was probably again the best player on ice in crucial 1st game against the Soviets which was won 2:0 (Suchý scored the first goal, assisted to second goal).

By the end of the season, Suchý won the inaugural Golden Stick award for the best CSSR player. It’s fortunate that for this season we also have a one-off poll for the best player in Europe where Suchý obtained by far the most votes too.

1969-1970
A season where you start to notice some criticism of Suchý. It appears that he sometimes enjoyed attacking and carrying the puck up ice way too much. In any case, reading the late 60s/early 70s contemporary press almost makes you think that there were only two major topics: rule change allowing forchecking in all 3 zones and… everything about Suchý.

There is no sense in spending too much time on the League here, since there was nothing overly new under the sun. Dukla with Suchý as the leading player landed another victory. I’d only point out that this season saw the emergence of František Pospíšil as the Europe’s next “modern” defenseman. Pospíšil did not play as a false wing like Suchý or Lennart Svedberg from the Swedish NT, but he managed to put up similar scoring numbers like Suchý domestically (not internationally though). While Suchý blazed with speed and possessed enormous creativity in all three zones, Pospíšil was a genius passer who excelled in transition and especially in counter-attacking type of play. Suchý’s portion of points came more from goals while Pospíšil’s came largely from assists. Both were obviously great in defensive zone but their style differed. I think Suchý relied more on his speed and when he lost it, he just couldn’t find his former glory. Pospíšil distinguished himself through elite positioning. Coupled with elite conditioning and later a good strength made him to last longer than Suchý and add some impressive 30+ y/o seasons in the 2nd half of the 70s. I have also found out both had a rather weak shot. Suchý especially couldn’t do anything with his slapshot from longer distance, but it caught me as a surprise that Pospíšil’s slapshot was below-average as well. It couldn’t have been matched with shots of CSSR d-men such as Horešovský or Machač – unsurprisingly precisely these two were Suchý’ and Pospíšil’s D partners in the National team. Suchý was RD and Pospíšil LD, which then begged the question why not to create a superelite first D pair? The cooperation was tried but miserably failed – both equally liked to control the flow of the game and to have the puck on their stick a lot.

Jiří Hertl (one of the leading coaches in Czechoslovakia, Hertl’s specialties were goaltending seminars, Junior National team and oversight of league statistics) in his early 1970' review of candidates for the Golden Stick award in the Gól magazine:

“I have four big candidates – Nedomanský, Dzurilla, Černý and Suchý. (…) Jenda Suchý is slowly starting to annoy some spectators, which have been irritated by [Suchý’s] risky game in the offensive zone. But I value him highly. Perhaps I have good nerves or I trust more that it is all well thought-out teamwork with wingers. He has scored 19 goals already and just as much assists and to naysayers, who blame him for some goal allowed through a risky play, I’d like to remind that he’s recorded 37 appearances on ice when goal was allowed, while 62 appearances on ice when goal was scored, and this should only testify in his favor.”

Vladimír Kostka (National team coach) in his early 1970' review of candidates for the Golden Stick award in the Gól magazine:

František Pospíšil is our best defending defenseman. He reaches a world class level in defensive positioning. Plays hard, balanced and calmly. Does not lose his playing composure even in the toughest situations.”

Jan Suchý has an individualistic conception of an offensive defenseman. Offensive activity has propped him up on the first place in our scoring charts. He has enormous playing imagination and a sense for immediate resolving of situations even outside of defensive zone.”

Now I’d like to move on to the WHC 1970. Suchý won All-Star D voting again convincingly by 78 votes from 87 ballots. Though he was not granted Directoriate’s best D award – much to a surprise of not only the recipient (Svedberg) but also to a surprise of Suchý himself.:) From daily coverage of Československý sport you get a feeling as if Suchý was the main star of the tournament. Jan Suchý became a frequent conversational topic in post-game interviews or press conferences.

Roland Stolz (former Swedish player and a star defenseman of the early 1960s hockey) in an interview with Pavel Novotný during the Stockholm 1970’ Championship published by Československý sport:

PN: “Which defenseman do you consider the best here in Stockholm?”

RS: “There is a very simple answer to this question. Yours Suchý. I don’t consider him just a best defenseman, but also the tournament’s best player overall. Svedberg too is a good defenseman but he can’t perform at peak level in every game. Suchý can.”

Anatoli Tarasov when asked by a Československý sport’s writer about the earlier CSSR-Sweden game:

“…I cannot allow myself not to say a word on Jan Suchý. This player to me is realization of the ideal hockey player. How he can react to situations, how he changes the spot as needed, how smartly he can attack.. That’s just amazing.”

Now to cool off the temperature a bit, here’s what Mike Daski (Detroit Red Wings chiefscout for Europe) said in an interview with Pavel Novotný during the Championship published by Československý sport:

PN: “Which players have impressed you the most this year in Stockholm? Would any one of them have a chance to play in the NHL?”

MD: “Last year, we invited to our camp Svedberg from the Swedish squad, and the Finn Ketola. I have my sight on other players from Sweden, Lundström and young Hedberg, which we would like to try out. Svedberg proved himself in our camp, I hope that he will accept our invitation this year too, furthermore that he will later catch on the opportunity to play in the NHL. I´d be also interested in some of the players of the CSSR team, though they have already been on negotiation lists of different professional clubs (Nedomanský New York Rangers, Jiří and Jaroslav Holík in Boston Bruins, Horešovský in Saint Louis Blues), that´s why they are inaccesible for us."

PN: “Ours Jan Suchý has been generally evaluated as the one of the Championship’s best players in Stockholm. What is your opinion on his game?”

MD: “He’s truly excellent player for European hockey even though he’s not in as good form as he was last year. Nonetheless, he is too much offensively focused for a professional hockey style and he leaves free spaces in his defense.”

What did Suchý himself have to say about his style of play at the championship? An interview with Pavel Novotný published by Československý sport:

PN (introduction): “Defenseman of our National team, Jan Suchý, is in the centre of attention in Stockholm. Coaches of foreign teams speak about him, he’s generated a large publicity in Swedish newspapers. His extraordinary hockey skills are being appreciated, he is called the best defenseman in the world, on the other side, negative remarks about his game and manners are emerging as well.
(…)
There is also a lot of talks whether your constant effort for attacking does not weaken the team in defense which is your position.”

JS: “It’s my playing style and I hardly unlearn it now. I’m not alone who goes forward a lot. Even Franta Pospíšil engages in offense very often. Teammates at home in Dukla count with my rushes and can always solidify defense in time. It hasn’t always worked out here. It’s just a matter of cooperation, quick assessment of the situation. If I go to counter-attack, forward somewhere behind me should secure defense because I at that moment actually overtook his role. Only Holíks do that automatically because they’re used to it. Others can’t react quickly enough.”

At the end of the ’70 season, Suchý received his 2nd Golden Stick for the best CSSR player. It’s an incredible shame that that 1969 poll of Československý sport wasn’t conducted again. Writers back in 69 had actually stated that they intend to run such voting annually. Would Suchý be able to win it again? Tough to say, since his play and play of his National team declined compared to 1969, but Firsov battled through injuries and missed games, and Maltsev was a young phenom but too one-dimensional vis-à-vis Firsov and Suchý. Hard to say…

Otherwise, it's also possible that comparisons of Suchý-Orr started right after this season. Very first analogy of the “European Bobby Orr” was found in the Gól magazine, summer of 1970. Writer Pavel Rýpar reported on the 1970’ NHL season and Jaroslav Jiřík (1st Czech playing in NHL), who had played 3 games for St. Louis in 69/70, added some comments in the article. It was no one other than Jiřík who said:

“He [Orr] reminds me of Honza Suchý. Orr keeps getting in front and when he’s on the ice, Boston sometimes allows unnecessary goals, but he also scores more goals only by himself. He plays a lot, sometimes double-shifts, coach puts him on power-plays. He just has everything any hockey player can only dream of: perfect skater, physically unusually strong, with ‘European’ technique and ‘Canadian’ shooting: Amazing hockey player.”

View attachment 375552

Suchý has watched a good amount of NHL during various National team’s trips. What was he actually thinking about NHL and Orr? Here’s a clip from Suchý’s autobiography co-written with David Lukšů, Aleš Palán and published in 2008/2015 (p. 161-162):

“We enjoyed professional overseas hockey only in television. We kept watching sports channels even for 24 hours. What else to do when you’re stuck in Winnipeg with -40 degrees outside?... It didn’t seem to me that there would have been a big difference between ours and Canadian hockey. It was just more blown up through media and advertisement in overseas. Old Holík, who went to see his son to America, used to say that some of those games are completely unwatchable.

The level of overseas hockey in my opinion improved only after the arrival of Europeans – it’s not so brutal and trivial anymore. Today, when the NHL even tightened the penalties for roughing, suddenly technical players have a chance too. It wasn’t like that in our time.

I observed mainly defensemen then, who had the only task: get the puck and advance it along the boards; if a forward received it or not was already his thing to worry about. I told myself that if I was playing like that with Holík, he would kill me. Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe were the biggest attractions at the time of our trips, but I guess I had just seen the games that hadn’t gone so well for them. To me, Bobby Orr shined above everyone else: huge defenseman who skated forward a lot. Just like me.”

1970-1971
An important part in Suchý’s resumé since he was able to demonstrate over the course of entire domestic and international season that he’s capable of acting more as a shutdown stay-at-home d-man. Suchý’s league points fell down to 27 while playing 41 games, which was not even in the top 20. Suchý recorded 43, 56 and 44 points in 34-36 games in previous three seasons and he always competed with forwards for the scoring title. This wasn’t the case now as Suchý’s mere 8 goals scored was even less than what he scored in previous seasons including the 1965 (10 goals in 32 games). Suchý also led the league in +/- and remarkably registered lone 6 PIMs in the entire season. Suchý wasn’t exactly prototype of a clean, low-PIM d-man – this data was more of an exception. Jiří Hertl’s column in Gól magazine also revealed that Suchý had spent the most ice-time on PK of any player this season. Dukla Jihlava won fifth title in a row.

Low-scoring type of game continued to the 1971 WHC. Suchý scored 5 points in 10 games in Switzerland, when he had been >ppg in two previous championships. From a Russian source posted on this forum by Sanf 5 years ago, Suchý’s role changed, he was now tasked to play like a “quarterback, true defender”. Suchý won the All-Star D voting for 4th time in a row, Directoriate’s best D award was handed over to him for a 2nd time now too.

Suchý and the CSSR team played what suited them more – a rigid, Left-wing-lock defensive system where a team rather waits for an opponent to make a mistake. CSSR earned silver medal but did outperform the golden Soviets in their match-ups. First one ending 3:3, second one ending with a clear 5:2 win for the Czechs with Suchý once again the man of the game.

Anatoli Tarasov after the second USSR-CSSR game quoted by the TIP magazine:

“What a sensation when the Czechoslovak team lost the first championship match with the USA team. Well, even a bigger sensation was that this squad managed to put itself together so quickly after unsuccessful start. The 3-goal victory in Geneve in the battle with our team was absolutely the highest point of this reality. And it was totally fine. One man has stayed in front of my eyes, whose performance from this game I will never forget in my life – Jan Suchý. I rank him amongst the best players of our time. His sense for a play, his brilliant technique, his positioning, all of this is inimitable.”

Despite all of this, Jan Suchý did not consequently win a third Golden Stick, coming in close 2nd behind František Pospíšil who himself was progressing. Pospíšil scored 42 points in 36 reg. season games, which meant 5th place on the overall scoring chart. With his 32 assists Pospíšil even led the League in 1971. Pospíšil also contributed further with 7 points (2+5) from 9 games in the playoffs, which followed in April after the WHC ended. Pospíšil’s domestic play was equally great as Suchý’s, if not even greater. Pospíšil’s international play was by my account very good too, but completely overshadowed by Suchý’s talent to rise in high-pressure moments.

I’ll finally conclude this post by perhaps the most interesting piece yet. Translated article of Miloslav Charouzd (a 1950s NT player, then a prominent hockey columnist) published in Gól magazine after the 1971’ Bern & Geneve Championship, who reflects on the modern type of offense-oriented defenseman emerging in the early 1970s personified by Bobby Orr in North America and Suchý, Svedberg and Pospíšil in Europe. The article also somewhat confirms a contempory lack of high quality puck-moving Soviet d-men that could perform at a similar level as the mentioned Czech and Swedish defenders.

View attachment 375553

A Hockey Player’s Year

Ing. Arch. MILOSLAV CHAROUZD

SUCHÝ attacks in Europe, Bobby ORR attacks in Canada!

A look at the job of hockey defenseman has lately been slowly – but steadily – changing. To defend the zone in front of goalie – that used to suffice in the past. Today, the active defensive game of the whole team requires effective help of defensemen even in the offensive zone, and often a defenseman must also be the initiator of a quick counter-attack.

Experts’ opinions on these offensive game occurences of defensemen are not as clearly unanimous though. One camp still sees the core of defenseman primarily in an actual defending and destroying the actions of an opponent. This way of defense has been practised typically by the Swedish teams. That is why Nordlander, Carlsson, Milton – but more others, except for Svedberg – operate mainly in own defensive zone. On the contrary defensemen of the most of Soviet teams have employed more aggressive way of attacking defense. This playing activity of Davydov, Kuzkin and even those of the youngest generation – Lutchenko, Tsygankov – excels especially in the area around the offensive blue line. After retrieving a rubber it is then an outright duty of a Soviet defenseman to pass to a forward in motion. USSR defensemen adhere to this type of game all too stereotypically, and their defenseman only very rarely participates in an offensive action – conversely as we can very frequently watch on Suchý or Pospíšil. Namely both of these our defensemen can immediately engage into offensive action, if the on-ice situation calls for an opportunity for a rapid thrust forward, which they always decisively and with no mercy execute.

This art of ‘deciphering the situation’ on the ice in the best and fastest way, and realizing such solutions, which are worthy of a hockey persona, has been a privilege of real hockey ‘masterminds’ on the back-end – whether it was Míla Pokorný from LTC Prague in post-war era nicknamed then as a “wandering defenseman”, or Karel Gut later, or Honza Suchý nowadays.

Hockey times are changing not only in Europe but also in Canada. Boston Bruins’ Bobby Orr, one of the youngest and yet most valuable NHL defenseman, has brought revolutionary offensive elements into already traditional defensive game of Canadian professionals. He even became the king of shooters and passers with his literally offensive game, and rivals have been personally covering him as the most dangerous forward of the team.

So do these outstanding offensive defensemen neglect their defending duties? Not even their detractors can conclusively say that – even though they still have certain objections. But hockey has again advanced in its development one step further and one fact is more than clear: Offensive defensemen also this season set the pace in all hockey matured countries. Bobby Orr stars in Canada, Svedberg is the most highly appreciated in Sweden, and with us even the two of the best players have recruited from duo of defenders Pospíšil – Suchý. Moreover, it is necessary to add the outstanding Finish defenseman Koskela to these names as well. Only Soviet hockey has no significant individual in defense after Sologubov’s departure. Generally though, the evolution suggests that many defensemen haven’t yet used up every options offered by the game. Options in current hockey discovered so far and demonstrated only by magnificient talents.”

Thanks for posting this. I'm pretty comfortable with saying Jan Suchy's peak from 1968-1971 was better than any other European defenseman* not named Fetisov. But that's the thing with Suchy - isn't that really, really short?

*Edit: I mean non-NHL European defenseman

After he crashed his car while drunk, he was never relevant in any awards voting again that I can see. Though his stats still look decent.
 
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DN28

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I guess when a defenseman leads his (pro) league in scoring, Orr would be the logical comparable.

Good point to bring up. Suchý famously won the CSSR league scoring in 1969 as a defenseman. He scored 56 points in 34 games.

Guy who ended up 2nd in scoring that year was Václav Nedomanský in his prime (50 points in 36 games). Same Nedomanský who at the age of 34 led Detroit Red Wings in scoring in NHL season 1979.
 

Batis

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Jan Suchý and other European defensemen from mid-60s to early 70s

I finally forced myself into writing a longer profile mainly about Jan Suchý’s prime. Suchý is probably the last well-known CSSR player of whom I felt the need to post my archive findings. This post also includes some secondary information about the state of Czech and other Euro d-men in the roughly 1965-1971 period. It doesn’t include anything about Suchý’s post-car accident career, since I’ve already covered that topic elsewhere.

1964-1965
Suchý’s first international season. I find nothing particular about him. František Tikal (WHC ‘65 All-Star and 1965 Directoriate’s Best Defenseman) was still considered by far the best Czechoslovak defenseman at this point. Suchý didn’t get a vote in tournament’s all-star voting. Coach Vladimír Kostka even wrote in winter 64-65 after the CSSR trip to Canada that Tikal could easily play in the NHL. It’s truly a shame that Tikal’s legacy have been tarnished by no one other than his 1965’ D partner in the CSSR lineup – Jan Suchý. Anyway, moving on…

1965-1966
I would cautiously refer of Suchý as the best Czechoslovak defenseman at this point. Not only that his league scoring jumped but he showed a great WHC performance. In the league, Suchý’s 32 points was good enough for the 13th place in the overall scoring (and of course the most among d-men). Dukla Jihlava (= Suchý’s team) improved in the standings and lost the title to ZKL Brno only through worse goal-differential.

But also Kopaná-Hokej magazine declared Jan Suchý, Stanislav Prýl and Jiří Holík as the three best CSSR players at the 1966 WHC, while Stadion magazine considered Jiří Holík as the best Czechoslovakian at the Ljublana 1966’ Championship… Suchý was the only CSSR d-man who did not register a single goal or assist so whatever the source of praise for his perfomance was, it surely hadn’t come from his offensive rushes.

1966-1967
Suchý probably became the best Czechoslovak player during this season. Dukla Jihlava won their first title and launched a dynasty lasting until 1974. Suchý was again the highest scoring d-men (he’d be one always from 1966 to 1970) while Dukla allowed the least amount of goals by a good margin.

I have two sources which together paints the picture. First, František Žák, former league player who observed the WHC ’67 in person, named Jozef Golonka and Jan Suchý as the only couple of players who did not disappoint.

Second, I have found Arkady Chernyshev’s list of best players at the Vienna 1967’ Championship in the Kopaná-Hokej interview. The list is following:

View attachment 375513

KH: “Which WHC players were the best to you?”

AC: “In goal – Martin. This Canadian is without a doubt the best goaltender over the last years. I would nominate our Konovalenko as the second goalie, and as a third – the American Wetzel.

Davydov was the best amongst defensemen. He played greatly in all the games and was almost flawless. That is very important in such esteemed tournament. Ragulin deserves a high praise too. From other teams’ defensemen, I would pick the Canadian Brewer and the CSSR player Suchý.

Firsov showed an outstanding game in the offense. He was certainly the best. I would name Starshinov as the second best. What a fantastic warrior who can play on the ice exactly what interests of the collective dictate. I would put the Swede Nils Nilsson on the third place, and on the fourth – Jaroslav Holík from the CSSR.”

So that’s two individuals that separately exalt Jan Suchý after otherwise horrible team performance by the Czechoslovaks (4th place at the WHC).

Furthermore, we do have already here a smaller, less-known award for the best Czechoslovak hockey players called Anketa internacionálů (can be loosely translated as The Poll of the Former National Team Players). I haven’t still found enough time to look more into this, but from what I remember, I believe the award results came from approximately 10 voters and the award was granted according to yearly – not seasonal (!) – performance. Jan Suchý is listed to win this award in 1967, which presumably means that circa 10 former players thought of him to be the CSSR player for the 2nd half of 66-67 and for the 1st half of 67-68 season.

…All this is to say that from the evidence at hand, I think we can cautiously give Jan Suchý a retro Golden Stick for the 1967 season.

A sidenote: under the information available, Suchý was likely contacted by an NHL team (Detroit Red Wings) for the first time during the summer of 1967.

1967-1968
Here’s where the real ride begins. Not only that Suchý is now playing his own league but he enters a discussion for the best player in Europe. His peak play happened in 1968-1971 and at the OG ’68, Suchý won the d-men all-star voting.

Czechoslovakia won silver but managed to upset the USSR 5:4 in quite an exciting spectacle. The game was definitely won in large part through clever coaching of Pitner&Kostka but as far as the individual players’ contributions go, Jan Suchý with his two-way game was arguably the best player on ice (hinted by the head of the CSSR hockey association Zdeněk Andršt in post-game interview).

From now on, we can see a consistent pattern with Suchý’s career – the ability to always play his best in deciding games. Thriving in the clutch Suchý also demonstrated in the League 1-2 months later. Although the 1960’s CSSR League did not offer any playoffs, a luck would have it that the previous champions (Dukla Jihlava and ZKL Brno) faced each other in the last round as the final game of the season. Jihlava was ahead 2 points but Brno would win the league with any win… The game ended with a 3:3 tie. How did the press evaluate the game?

“Big battles give birth to heroes. The Jihlavian Suchý becomes one in deciding league match between ZKL and Dukla. He stopped countless actions, blocked 17 shots with his own body, by himself several times endangered and once scored on Nadrchal. Jan Suchý is clearly the best hockey player of the season.”

To prove that Suchý wasn’t just a skater who got hot in high-pressure games but disappeared in low-key games, I will show you this list:

View attachment 375514

The list shows the final account of the best Czechoslovak players based on league games only. Reporters of Kopaná-Hokej magazine named the top goalie, d-man and forward after every game from the 67-68 season. Number behind the name reveals how many times a player was considered to be the best at his position in a particular game. 1968’ results transcripted from the picture above:

WRITERS EVALUATED:
Lacký – Suchý – Nedomanský

In the contest of journalists for the best players of the game, here is the final ranking:

Goaltenders: Lacký (23 ‘firsts’), Termer (19), Holeček (17), Kočí (16), Nadrchal (13), Dzurilla (12), Hovora, Wohl, Mikoláš and Valášek (11) etc.

Defensemen: Suchý (31), Pospíšil (25), Gregor (11), Ondřasina, Machač, Šíma and M. Beránek (10), Tajcnár (8), Masopust and Berek (7), etc.

Forwards: Nedomanský (13), Havel (11), Bavor and Černý (10), Ševčík, Jar. Holík and Hrbatý (8), Golonka (7), Jiří Holík and Hlinka (6) etc.”

What is absurd is that Suchý was declared the top d-man 31 times while playing 36 league games. It was 86% guaranteed that Suchý was going to be the best defender whenever a hockey game started and his lead over the rest is massive. I would also point out impressive result by Pospíšil suggesting he may have been a clear 2nd best Czech D already at this point in time, despite his otherwise a bit disappointing Olympics.

Jan Suchý would have been a landslide winner of a Golden Stick trophy for the best Czechoslovak hockey player if the voting was conducted already in spring of 1968.

A sidenote: I was surprised to find out that 34 y/o František Tikal, playing basically his last season, was still viewed as a sure thing for the National team lineup! Only thing which prevented his nomination was an injury/illness.

1968-1969
Now this was one of the best seasons from any European player ever. Defenseman Suchý famously ran through the finish line as the League’s leading scorer – 1 year before Bobby Orr achieved such feat in NHL. Suchý scored 56 points (30+26) in 34 games according to official game records. He created unofficial record of all-time high number of points scored in a single league game – Dukla won 14:3 over České Budějovice on 8. 2. 1969, and Suchý contributed with 9 points (5+4).

Statistically, the 1969’ edition of Dukla Jihlava is likely the most dominant Czech or Slovak team in history. 29 wins, 6 losses, 1 tie, 59 points out of 36 games and a goal-differential of 206:83 – no other team has fared better before or since. Four Dukla players occupied the top-10 scoring rank, three Dukla players appeared on the top-5 scoring list. Just to give you an idea of Suchý’s fame, here are the two headlines from the Československý sport from this time:

“Half of the Champion is Suchý”

“Forwards, learn from Suchý!”


Now to turn the focus on international stage, what else have I found? For the 69’ season specifically, you can find some praise about Suchý’s physical game. Coach Vladimír Kostka highlighted rising quality of CSSR defense’s physical game in winter 68-69 after several clashes with Canadian squads. Czech d-men were at this point considered better than Canadian ones because, while perhaps less stronger, they avoid penalties. In fairness, Kostka noted the physicality of all Czech d-men, not of Suchy concretely, but a sentence later he wrote that Suchý had been statistically the best d-man of that series…

Anyway, Suchý won WHC ‘69 all-star voting with 144 votes out of 150 ballots. He also received ‘69 Directoriate’s Best Defenseman award. CSSR finished the championship only third after worse goal-differential than Sweden and Soviet Union (all three teams had equal amount of points). Czechoslovaks might have come ahead if it wasn’t for Suchý’s injury causing him to miss the last game vs. Sweden. Still, Suchý was probably again the best player on ice in crucial 1st game against the Soviets which was won 2:0 (Suchý scored the first goal, assisted to second goal).

By the end of the season, Suchý won the inaugural Golden Stick award for the best CSSR player. It’s fortunate that for this season we also have a one-off poll for the best player in Europe where Suchý obtained by far the most votes too.

1969-1970
A season where you start to notice some criticism of Suchý. It appears that he sometimes enjoyed attacking and carrying the puck up ice way too much. In any case, reading the late 60s/early 70s contemporary press almost makes you think that there were only two major topics: rule change allowing forchecking in all 3 zones and… everything about Suchý.

There is no sense in spending too much time on the League here, since there was nothing overly new under the sun. Dukla with Suchý as the leading player landed another victory. I’d only point out that this season saw the emergence of František Pospíšil as the Europe’s next “modern” defenseman. Pospíšil did not play as a false wing like Suchý or Lennart Svedberg from the Swedish NT, but he managed to put up similar scoring numbers like Suchý domestically (not internationally though). While Suchý blazed with speed and possessed enormous creativity in all three zones, Pospíšil was a genius passer who excelled in transition and especially in counter-attacking type of play. Suchý’s portion of points came more from goals while Pospíšil’s came largely from assists. Both were obviously great in defensive zone but their style differed. I think Suchý relied more on his speed and when he lost it, he just couldn’t find his former glory. Pospíšil distinguished himself through elite positioning. Coupled with elite conditioning and later a good strength made him to last longer than Suchý and add some impressive 30+ y/o seasons in the 2nd half of the 70s. I have also found out both had a rather weak shot. Suchý especially couldn’t do anything with his slapshot from longer distance, but it caught me as a surprise that Pospíšil’s slapshot was below-average as well. It couldn’t have been matched with shots of CSSR d-men such as Horešovský or Machač – unsurprisingly precisely these two were Suchý’ and Pospíšil’s D partners in the National team. Suchý was RD and Pospíšil LD, which then begged the question why not to create a superelite first D pair? The cooperation was tried but miserably failed – both equally liked to control the flow of the game and to have the puck on their stick a lot.

Jiří Hertl (one of the leading coaches in Czechoslovakia, Hertl’s specialties were goaltending seminars, Junior National team and oversight of league statistics) in his early 1970' review of candidates for the Golden Stick award in the Gól magazine:

“I have four big candidates – Nedomanský, Dzurilla, Černý and Suchý. (…) Jenda Suchý is slowly starting to annoy some spectators, which have been irritated by [Suchý’s] risky game in the offensive zone. But I value him highly. Perhaps I have good nerves or I trust more that it is all well thought-out teamwork with wingers. He has scored 19 goals already and just as much assists and to naysayers, who blame him for some goal allowed through a risky play, I’d like to remind that he’s recorded 37 appearances on ice when goal was allowed, while 62 appearances on ice when goal was scored, and this should only testify in his favor.”

Vladimír Kostka (National team coach) in his early 1970' review of candidates for the Golden Stick award in the Gól magazine:

František Pospíšil is our best defending defenseman. He reaches a world class level in defensive positioning. Plays hard, balanced and calmly. Does not lose his playing composure even in the toughest situations.”

Jan Suchý has an individualistic conception of an offensive defenseman. Offensive activity has propped him up on the first place in our scoring charts. He has enormous playing imagination and a sense for immediate resolving of situations even outside of defensive zone.”

Now I’d like to move on to the WHC 1970. Suchý won All-Star D voting again convincingly by 78 votes from 87 ballots. Though he was not granted Directoriate’s best D award – much to a surprise of not only the recipient (Svedberg) but also to a surprise of Suchý himself.:) From daily coverage of Československý sport you get a feeling as if Suchý was the main star of the tournament. Jan Suchý became a frequent conversational topic in post-game interviews or press conferences.

Roland Stolz (former Swedish player and a star defenseman of the early 1960s hockey) in an interview with Pavel Novotný during the Stockholm 1970’ Championship published by Československý sport:

PN: “Which defenseman do you consider the best here in Stockholm?”

RS: “There is a very simple answer to this question. Yours Suchý. I don’t consider him just a best defenseman, but also the tournament’s best player overall. Svedberg too is a good defenseman but he can’t perform at peak level in every game. Suchý can.”

Anatoli Tarasov when asked by a Československý sport’s writer about the earlier CSSR-Sweden game:

“…I cannot allow myself not to say a word on Jan Suchý. This player to me is realization of the ideal hockey player. How he can react to situations, how he changes the spot as needed, how smartly he can attack.. That’s just amazing.”

Now to cool off the temperature a bit, here’s what Mike Daski (Detroit Red Wings chiefscout for Europe) said in an interview with Pavel Novotný during the Championship published by Československý sport:

PN: “Which players have impressed you the most this year in Stockholm? Would any one of them have a chance to play in the NHL?”

MD: “Last year, we invited to our camp Svedberg from the Swedish squad, and the Finn Ketola. I have my sight on other players from Sweden, Lundström and young Hedberg, which we would like to try out. Svedberg proved himself in our camp, I hope that he will accept our invitation this year too, furthermore that he will later catch on the opportunity to play in the NHL. I´d be also interested in some of the players of the CSSR team, though they have already been on negotiation lists of different professional clubs (Nedomanský New York Rangers, Jiří and Jaroslav Holík in Boston Bruins, Horešovský in Saint Louis Blues), that´s why they are inaccesible for us."

PN: “Ours Jan Suchý has been generally evaluated as the one of the Championship’s best players in Stockholm. What is your opinion on his game?”

MD: “He’s truly excellent player for European hockey even though he’s not in as good form as he was last year. Nonetheless, he is too much offensively focused for a professional hockey style and he leaves free spaces in his defense.”

What did Suchý himself have to say about his style of play at the championship? An interview with Pavel Novotný published by Československý sport:

PN (introduction): “Defenseman of our National team, Jan Suchý, is in the centre of attention in Stockholm. Coaches of foreign teams speak about him, he’s generated a large publicity in Swedish newspapers. His extraordinary hockey skills are being appreciated, he is called the best defenseman in the world, on the other side, negative remarks about his game and manners are emerging as well.
(…)
There is also a lot of talks whether your constant effort for attacking does not weaken the team in defense which is your position.”

JS: “It’s my playing style and I hardly unlearn it now. I’m not alone who goes forward a lot. Even Franta Pospíšil engages in offense very often. Teammates at home in Dukla count with my rushes and can always solidify defense in time. It hasn’t always worked out here. It’s just a matter of cooperation, quick assessment of the situation. If I go to counter-attack, forward somewhere behind me should secure defense because I at that moment actually overtook his role. Only Holíks do that automatically because they’re used to it. Others can’t react quickly enough.”

At the end of the ’70 season, Suchý received his 2nd Golden Stick for the best CSSR player. It’s an incredible shame that that 1969 poll of Československý sport wasn’t conducted again. Writers back in 69 had actually stated that they intend to run such voting annually. Would Suchý be able to win it again? Tough to say, since his play and play of his National team declined compared to 1969, but Firsov battled through injuries and missed games, and Maltsev was a young phenom but too one-dimensional vis-à-vis Firsov and Suchý. Hard to say…

Otherwise, it's also possible that comparisons of Suchý-Orr started right after this season. Very first analogy of the “European Bobby Orr” was found in the Gól magazine, summer of 1970. Writer Pavel Rýpar reported on the 1970’ NHL season and Jaroslav Jiřík (1st Czech playing in NHL), who had played 3 games for St. Louis in 69/70, added some comments in the article. It was no one other than Jiřík who said:

“He [Orr] reminds me of Honza Suchý. Orr keeps getting in front and when he’s on the ice, Boston sometimes allows unnecessary goals, but he also scores more goals only by himself. He plays a lot, sometimes double-shifts, coach puts him on power-plays. He just has everything any hockey player can only dream of: perfect skater, physically unusually strong, with ‘European’ technique and ‘Canadian’ shooting: Amazing hockey player.”

View attachment 375552

Suchý has watched a good amount of NHL during various National team’s trips. What was he actually thinking about NHL and Orr? Here’s a clip from Suchý’s autobiography co-written with David Lukšů, Aleš Palán and published in 2008/2015 (p. 161-162):

“We enjoyed professional overseas hockey only in television. We kept watching sports channels even for 24 hours. What else to do when you’re stuck in Winnipeg with -40 degrees outside?... It didn’t seem to me that there would have been a big difference between ours and Canadian hockey. It was just more blown up through media and advertisement in overseas. Old Holík, who went to see his son to America, used to say that some of those games are completely unwatchable.

The level of overseas hockey in my opinion improved only after the arrival of Europeans – it’s not so brutal and trivial anymore. Today, when the NHL even tightened the penalties for roughing, suddenly technical players have a chance too. It wasn’t like that in our time.

I observed mainly defensemen then, who had the only task: get the puck and advance it along the boards; if a forward received it or not was already his thing to worry about. I told myself that if I was playing like that with Holík, he would kill me. Bobby Hull and Gordie Howe were the biggest attractions at the time of our trips, but I guess I had just seen the games that hadn’t gone so well for them. To me, Bobby Orr shined above everyone else: huge defenseman who skated forward a lot. Just like me.”

1970-1971
An important part in Suchý’s resumé since he was able to demonstrate over the course of entire domestic and international season that he’s capable of acting more as a shutdown stay-at-home d-man. Suchý’s league points fell down to 27 while playing 41 games, which was not even in the top 20. Suchý recorded 43, 56 and 44 points in 34-36 games in previous three seasons and he always competed with forwards for the scoring title. This wasn’t the case now as Suchý’s mere 8 goals scored was even less than what he scored in previous seasons including the 1965 (10 goals in 32 games). Suchý also led the league in +/- and remarkably registered lone 6 PIMs in the entire season. Suchý wasn’t exactly prototype of a clean, low-PIM d-man – this data was more of an exception. Jiří Hertl’s column in Gól magazine also revealed that Suchý had spent the most ice-time on PK of any player this season. Dukla Jihlava won fifth title in a row.

Low-scoring type of game continued to the 1971 WHC. Suchý scored 5 points in 10 games in Switzerland, when he had been >ppg in two previous championships. From a Russian source posted on this forum by Sanf 5 years ago, Suchý’s role changed, he was now tasked to play like a “quarterback, true defender”. Suchý won the All-Star D voting for 4th time in a row, Directoriate’s best D award was handed over to him for a 2nd time now too.

Suchý and the CSSR team played what suited them more – a rigid, Left-wing-lock defensive system where a team rather waits for an opponent to make a mistake. CSSR earned silver medal but did outperform the golden Soviets in their match-ups. First one ending 3:3, second one ending with a clear 5:2 win for the Czechs with Suchý once again the man of the game.

Anatoli Tarasov after the second USSR-CSSR game quoted by the TIP magazine:

“What a sensation when the Czechoslovak team lost the first championship match with the USA team. Well, even a bigger sensation was that this squad managed to put itself together so quickly after unsuccessful start. The 3-goal victory in Geneve in the battle with our team was absolutely the highest point of this reality. And it was totally fine. One man has stayed in front of my eyes, whose performance from this game I will never forget in my life – Jan Suchý. I rank him amongst the best players of our time. His sense for a play, his brilliant technique, his positioning, all of this is inimitable.”

Despite all of this, Jan Suchý did not consequently win a third Golden Stick, coming in close 2nd behind František Pospíšil who himself was progressing. Pospíšil scored 42 points in 36 reg. season games, which meant 5th place on the overall scoring chart. With his 32 assists Pospíšil even led the League in 1971. Pospíšil also contributed further with 7 points (2+5) from 9 games in the playoffs, which followed in April after the WHC ended. Pospíšil’s domestic play was equally great as Suchý’s, if not even greater. Pospíšil’s international play was by my account very good too, but completely overshadowed by Suchý’s talent to rise in high-pressure moments.

I’ll finally conclude this post by perhaps the most interesting piece yet. Translated article of Miloslav Charouzd (a 1950s NT player, then a prominent hockey columnist) published in Gól magazine after the 1971’ Bern & Geneve Championship, who reflects on the modern type of offense-oriented defenseman emerging in the early 1970s personified by Bobby Orr in North America and Suchý, Svedberg and Pospíšil in Europe. The article also somewhat confirms a contempory lack of high quality puck-moving Soviet d-men that could perform at a similar level as the mentioned Czech and Swedish defenders.

View attachment 375553

A Hockey Player’s Year

Ing. Arch. MILOSLAV CHAROUZD

SUCHÝ attacks in Europe, Bobby ORR attacks in Canada!

A look at the job of hockey defenseman has lately been slowly – but steadily – changing. To defend the zone in front of goalie – that used to suffice in the past. Today, the active defensive game of the whole team requires effective help of defensemen even in the offensive zone, and often a defenseman must also be the initiator of a quick counter-attack.

Experts’ opinions on these offensive game occurences of defensemen are not as clearly unanimous though. One camp still sees the core of defenseman primarily in an actual defending and destroying the actions of an opponent. This way of defense has been practised typically by the Swedish teams. That is why Nordlander, Carlsson, Milton – but more others, except for Svedberg – operate mainly in own defensive zone. On the contrary defensemen of the most of Soviet teams have employed more aggressive way of attacking defense. This playing activity of Davydov, Kuzkin and even those of the youngest generation – Lutchenko, Tsygankov – excels especially in the area around the offensive blue line. After retrieving a rubber it is then an outright duty of a Soviet defenseman to pass to a forward in motion. USSR defensemen adhere to this type of game all too stereotypically, and their defenseman only very rarely participates in an offensive action – conversely as we can very frequently watch on Suchý or Pospíšil. Namely both of these our defensemen can immediately engage into offensive action, if the on-ice situation calls for an opportunity for a rapid thrust forward, which they always decisively and with no mercy execute.

This art of ‘deciphering the situation’ on the ice in the best and fastest way, and realizing such solutions, which are worthy of a hockey persona, has been a privilege of real hockey ‘masterminds’ on the back-end – whether it was Míla Pokorný from LTC Prague in post-war era nicknamed then as a “wandering defenseman”, or Karel Gut later, or Honza Suchý nowadays.

Hockey times are changing not only in Europe but also in Canada. Boston Bruins’ Bobby Orr, one of the youngest and yet most valuable NHL defenseman, has brought revolutionary offensive elements into already traditional defensive game of Canadian professionals. He even became the king of shooters and passers with his literally offensive game, and rivals have been personally covering him as the most dangerous forward of the team.

So do these outstanding offensive defensemen neglect their defending duties? Not even their detractors can conclusively say that – even though they still have certain objections. But hockey has again advanced in its development one step further and one fact is more than clear: Offensive defensemen also this season set the pace in all hockey matured countries. Bobby Orr stars in Canada, Svedberg is the most highly appreciated in Sweden, and with us even the two of the best players have recruited from duo of defenders Pospíšil – Suchý. Moreover, it is necessary to add the outstanding Finish defenseman Koskela to these names as well. Only Soviet hockey has no significant individual in defense after Sologubov’s departure. Generally though, the evolution suggests that many defensemen haven’t yet used up every options offered by the game. Options in current hockey discovered so far and demonstrated only by magnificient talents.”

Thank you so much for posting this. As great as the peak of Vladimir Martinec was I would personally say that Suchy had the most impressive peak among Czechoslovakian players until the peaks of Hasek and Jagr. Would you agree on this? Just to be clear I rank Martinec ahead of Suchy due to him adding much more value outside of his peak but when looking only at their peaks I would say that Suchy edges him out.

This is how Suchy does when it comes to Czechoslovak Golden Stick voting shares. Keep in mind that the Golden Stick voting was conducted for the first time in 68/69 which means that two out of the five best seasons of Suchy happened before that award was voted on.

3-year average
  1. Vladimir Martinec: 16.0
  2. Jan Suchy: 15.8
  3. Jiri Holecek: 14.7
  4. Milan Novy: 14.1
  5. Frantisek Pospisil: 13.5
  6. Jiri Holik: 13.3
  7. Vaclav Nedomansky: 12.6
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 12.4
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 11.0
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 10.5
  11. Jiri Bubla: 9.1
5-year average
  1. Vladimir Martinec: 13.7
  2. Milan Novy: 12.8
  3. Jiri Holecek: 12.6
  4. Frantisek Pospisil: 11.6
  5. Vaclav Nedomansky: 11.2
  6. Jiri Holik: 10.5
  7. Jan Suchy: 10.2
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 10.1
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 9.0
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 7.5
  11. Jiri Bubla: 6.9
7-year average
  1. Vladimir Martinec: 11.9
  2. Milan Novy: 11.2
  3. Jiri Holecek: 11.1
  4. Frantisek Pospisil: 10.4
  5. Jiri Holik: 9.3
  6. Vaclav Nedomansky: 8.9
  7. Ivan Hlinka: 8.7
  8. Jan Suchy: 7.4
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 6.7
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 5.9
  11. Jiri Bubla: 5.4
Based on what we know about his 67/68 season I definitely think that we can say that Suchy would have been the overwhelming favourite to win a hypothetical Golden Stick voting that season. To try to make an estimation of what his voting share might have been I think that him recieving similar voting support to what he did in 69/70 (15.7%) seems like a good estimate. For the 66/67 season I would call him the favourite to win a hypothetical Golden Stick voting as well but it is less clearcut than in 67/68. A result somewhere around 13.0% seems like a reasonable and relatively conservative estimate for the 66/67 season considering that Suchy had a voting share of 13.9% in 70/71 when he finished as a close runner-up to Pospisil. So if we give Suchy estimated voting shares of 13.0% and 15.7% in those two seasons this is how his voting shares would look and how he compares to the other players of the golden generation.

3-year average
  1. Jan Suchy: 16.4 (est)
  2. Vladimir Martinec: 16.0
  3. Jiri Holecek: 14.7
  4. Milan Novy: 14.1
  5. Frantisek Pospisil: 13.5
  6. Jiri Holik: 13.3
  7. Vaclav Nedomansky: 12.6
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 12.4
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 11.0
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 10.5
  11. Jiri Bubla: 9.1
5-year average
  1. Jan Suchy: 15.2 (est)
  2. Vladimir Martinec: 13.7
  3. Milan Novy: 12.8
  4. Jiri Holecek: 12.6
  5. Frantisek Pospisil: 11.6
  6. Vaclav Nedomansky: 11.2
  7. Jiri Holik: 10.5
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 10.1
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 9.0
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 7.5
  11. Jiri Bubla: 6.9
7-year average
  1. Vladimir Martinec: 11.9
  2. Jan Suchy: 11.4 (est)
  3. Milan Novy: 11.2
  4. Jiri Holecek: 11.1
  5. Frantisek Pospisil: 10.4
  6. Jiri Holik: 9.3
  7. Vaclav Nedomansky: 8.9
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 8.7
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 6.7
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 5.9
  11. Jiri Bubla: 5.4
So when including the estimated voting shares for 66/67 and 67/68 Suchy beats out Martinec in both 3- year and 5-year averages and also edges out Novy and Holecek for second place behind Martinec in 7-year averages. Now it is worth noting that some other players like for example the Holik brothers, Nedomansky and Pospisil also likely would have improved their voting shares averages if the award had been around before 68/69. Still Suchy is almost certainly the player who would have benefited the most from this considering the strenght of his 66/67 and 67/68 seasons.
 
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ImporterExporter

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Thank you so much for posting this. As great as the peak of Vladimir Martinec was I would personally say that Suchy had the most impressive peak among Czechoslovakian players until the peaks of Hasek and Jagr. Would you agree on this? Just to be clear I rank Martinec ahead of Suchy due to him adding much more value outside of his peak but when looking only at their peaks I would say that Suchy edges him out.

This is how Suchy does when it comes to Czechoslovak Golden Stick voting shares. Keep in mind that the Golden Stick voting was conducted for the first time in 68/69 which means that two out of the five best seasons of Suchy happened before that award was voted on.

3-year average
  1. Vladimir Martinec: 16.0
  2. Jan Suchy: 15.8
  3. Jiri Holecek: 14.7
  4. Milan Novy: 14.1
  5. Frantisek Pospisil: 13.5
  6. Jiri Holik: 13.3
  7. Vaclav Nedomansky: 12.6
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 12.4
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 11.0
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 10.5
  11. Jiri Bubla: 9.1
5-year average
  1. Vladimir Martinec: 13.7
  2. Milan Novy: 12.8
  3. Jiri Holecek: 12.6
  4. Frantisek Pospisil: 11.6
  5. Vaclav Nedomansky: 11.2
  6. Jiri Holik: 10.5
  7. Jan Suchy: 10.2
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 10.1
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 9.0
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 7.5
  11. Jiri Bubla: 6.9
7-year average
  1. Vladimir Martinec: 11.9
  2. Milan Novy: 11.2
  3. Jiri Holecek: 11.1
  4. Frantisek Pospisil: 10.4
  5. Jiri Holik: 9.3
  6. Vaclav Nedomansky: 8.9
  7. Ivan Hlinka: 8.7
  8. Jan Suchy: 7.4
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 6.7
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 5.9
  11. Jiri Bubla: 5.4
Based on what we know about his 67/68 season I definitely think that we can say that Suchy would have been the overwhelming favourite to win a hypothetical Golden Stick voting that season. To try to make an estimation of what his voting share might have been I think that him recieving similar voting support to what he did in 69/70 (15.7%) seems like a good estimate. For the 66/67 season I would call him the favourite to win a hypothetical Golden Stick voting as well but it is less clearcut than in 67/68. A result somewhere around 13.0% seems like a reasonable and relatively conservative estimate for te 66/67 season considering that Suchy had a voting share of 13.9% in 70/71 when he finished as a close runner-up to Pospisil. So if we give Suchy estimated voting shares of 13.0% and 15.7% in those two seasons this is how his voting shares would look and how he compares to the other players of the golden generation.

3-year average
  1. Jan Suchy: 16.4 (est)
  2. Vladimir Martinec: 16.0
  3. Jiri Holecek: 14.7
  4. Milan Novy: 14.1
  5. Frantisek Pospisil: 13.5
  6. Jiri Holik: 13.3
  7. Vaclav Nedomansky: 12.6
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 12.4
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 11.0
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 10.5
  11. Jiri Bubla: 9.1
5-year average
  1. Jan Suchy: 15.2 (est)
  2. Vladimir Martinec: 13.7
  3. Milan Novy: 12.8
  4. Jiri Holecek: 12.6
  5. Frantisek Pospisil: 11.6
  6. Vaclav Nedomansky: 11.2
  7. Jiri Holik: 10.5
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 10.1
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 9.0
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 7.5
  11. Jiri Bubla: 6.9
7-year average
  1. Vladimir Martinec: 11.9
  2. Jan Suchy: 11.4 (est)
  3. Milan Novy: 11.2
  4. Jiri Holecek: 11.1
  5. Frantisek Pospisil: 10.4
  6. Jiri Holik: 9.3
  7. Vaclav Nedomansky: 8.9
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 8.7
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 6.7
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 5.9
  11. Jiri Bubla: 5.4
So when including the estimated voting shares for 66/67 and 67/68 Suchy beats out Martinec in both 3- year and 5-year averages and also edges out Novy and Holecek for second place behind Martinec in 7-year averages. Now it is worth noting out that some other players like for example the Holik brothers, Nedomansky and Pospisil also likely would have improved their voting shares averages if the award had been around before 68/69. Still Suchy is almost certainly the player who would have benefited the most from this considering the strenght of his 66/67 and 67/68 seasons.

This is neat.

How would you characterize Suchy's overall career on the international stage?
 

Professor What

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I definitely think I underestimated Suchy. I still don't think I'm ready for him at this spot, but his will come much sooner than I expected.
 

Professor What

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At this point, Hedman and Suchy have similar length primes, right? Who would you say had the stronger prime?

I'd have to go with Hedman. I mean, a Norris and a Conn Smythe in the consolidated best league in the world? Even with the growing strength of the Czechoslovakian league, it wasn't at that level. Suchy would have been a very fine NHL defenseman, no doubt, but I just can't see a match.
 

Professor What

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BTW, I want to apologize to everyone for not having been nearly as active this week as normal. I haven't exactly been in the best frame of mind, thanks to some stress and depression issues. Hopefully, that's not going to continue to be the case, but I fully intend to be a part of this for the long haul, even if it is. Even when that sort of thing leads me to be less active on the board, this place is still one of the escapes that I have.
 

ResilientBeast

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The case for Barry over Kariya is their seasonal finishes vs peers (VsX or top 10 finishes) plus Barry's playoff performances (1937 Retro Conn Smythe, only star player of the 1930s whose PPP doesn't go down in the playoffs).

What's the case for Kariya over Barry?

(To be clear, I would have probably voted Barry over Schriner, so this isn't necessarily an anti-Kariya post)

Agree Kariya > Bucyk

As I've reread the thread, I'm coming around on Barry. He's just someone outside of the ATD drafts I might never have even heard of and never quite appreciated his resume.

Kariya to me has felt on the bubble in this project for 3 rounds so naturally, I have him as an incumbent to receive a spot. But you're right Barry looks better

My big question about Barry is, we have ASTs from this era why isn't he on them? He has one 1st team over Herbie Lewis (incomplete data I'm sure) but he keeps losing out to other centers throughout the 30s

The competition is pretty tough, but the voter seemed to have Hooley in higher regard (I eyeballed this so any errors are accidental)

Early 30s: Boucher, Morenz, Hooley, Primeau
Mid 30s: Hooley, Thoms
Late 30s: Cowley, Apps, Schmidt, Colville

Edit: Is being the 4th or 5th best center of the 30s dramatically better than being the best LW at your peak in the 90s?
 
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tarheelhockey

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Ebbie Goodfellow

Overpass did a chronological look at his career in the HOH Top Defensemen project:



Here are two good ATD bios that portray him as a versatile player with no real weakness:
ATD 2012 Bios Thread (as complete as possible: pic, quotes, stats, sources, etc)
ATD 2015 Bio Thread

One particular article seems to sum up the highlights of his skillset (as backed up by others): "shattering body check and world of speed." His shot power was also highly praised, and he was a big part of Detroit's strong power play.

Filling in a small detail here:

1932-33 - Goodfellow slipped to 20 points, 6th on Detroit. It appears that Detroit had a more balanced attack this season, and Goodfellow played on the second line for much of the season.

Goodfellow began the season on a line with Hap Emms and Frank Carson. In the early going, he came down with a severe sinus infection that he chose to play through, which was apparently quite painful (imagine playing pro hockey with a migraine).

In their game on 1/31, Goodfellow suffered a knee injury. He tried to play through it for a game or two, but was not able to finish games under that condition. He ended up missing about 5 weeks with what was described as a knee injury and charley horse. I'm no doctor, but I wonder if the charley horse was a muscular response to trying to skate with a bad knee. He scored a goal in his March return, but with the Wings solidly in playoff position he again took to missing or playing only partial games as Jack Adams tried to give him as much rest as possible.

Which is all to say, his 1932-33 GP is a little higher than it rightfully should be, and he was only healthy for a small part of that regular season.

Goodfellow did return for the playoffs, and appears to have played second-line minutes in the first game. In the second game he scored a key goal to help bounce the Maroons from the playoffs, stripping the puck away as Montreal was pressing for a tying goal and then taking it down the ice himself to score on the counterattack (notable in this round -- Hooley Smith then scored twice to nearly reverse the outcome of that game). In the first game of the semifinal, Goodfellow didn't figure into the scoring. His most notable moment was a fight with Doug Brennan after hitting him from behind. In the second and final game, he very narrowly missed scoring what would have been a series-altering goal, and concluded his season with a hit on Ching Johnson that put a 5-stitch crescent into the latter's bald dome.

It should be noted that Adams did a hell of a job with that 1933 Wings team, guiding them to a 1st place finish without Goodfellow and Wiseman for much of the season, and getting a lot of mileage out of second-tier players.

Takeaway: Goodfellow's 1933 stats look a little worse than they should. He played through an illness and then attempted to play through an injury, resulting in partial games which get counted in his GP just the same as any healthy game. Detroit rolled two strong lines; Goodfellow was the center on the 2nd line. When reasonably healthy he was the same player as usual.
 
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tarheelhockey

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A 1933 article on Goodfellow, just before he went down with that leg injury, which gives an idea of what people saw in him:

Detroit Free Press 1/25/1933

When Ebbie Starts to Click
Red Wings Click with Him


Opponents' Goalies Buckle When Detroit's
Rugged Sniper Lets Fly with Puck


[...]

Ebbie is a playmaker, and among his teammates the most popular man on the squad. He's the kind of an athlete who obtains a wallop out of seeing his mates get the assists and the goals.

And a competitor. ... He's built for hockey and takes the toughest shocks that Ching Johnson or any of 'em have to offer. Ebbie isn't the kind who will always take the long route to the nets. That's another strong point in favor of this 184-pound Red Wing.

Like Howie Morenz, Ebbie takes the short route often enough to let the opposing defense know that it can't soften up with him around. Straight down the center, stick handling with the best in the game. Ebbie combines shifty maneuvering with a terrific shot.

And because he is big -- because he skates with such a long stride, his speed is underestimated. He gets under way faster than most fans believe. He can turn on a dime. And he can control a puck.

-----------------


The article, which highlights Goodfellow's pleasant disposition and outreach to local youth, fails to mention that he was also a very "game" hitter and fighter.
 

DN28

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Jan 2, 2014
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Thanks for posting this. I'm pretty comfortable with saying Jan Suchy's peak from 1968-1971 was better than any other European defenseman* not named Fetisov. But that's the thing with Suchy - isn't that really, really short?

*Edit: I mean non-NHL European defenseman

After he crashed his car while drunk, he was never relevant in any awards voting again that I can see. Though his stats still look decent.

His peak is short, yes, it’s 4 seasons. But there is much more substance to his pre-peak and post-peak seasons. I used to rank Pospíšil and Kasatonov higher until I found out what I found out.

You can read from my long post on page 3 that Suchý was considered best CSSR d-man at the 1966 WHC. You can read that Suchý is the most likely choice for being the best CSSR player in 1967. That's two quality seasons before the peak.

After car accident?

Suchý played only 2nd half of 1972. His GS voting in that year is relatively strong: 15th overall and 3rd best d-man despite not playing either OG or the ‘golden’ WHC. He was released from custody and allowed to play for just the remaining 16 games during which he scored 19 points (7+12). If Suchy had played the whole season and maintained the pace, he would have likely ended up with approximately 42 points which would have been the same amount that 3rd and 4th best league scorers of that season registered. I haven´t read the game reports from this season but I found the results of 4th round of GS voting, i.e. results from the only quarter of the League that Suchy played entirely, and the man was voted as 4th best player.
Suchý v 72.JPG

Suchý was going to play at 1972 WHC in Prague. Coaches wanted him. Players wanted him. Pospíšil and Nedomanský went as far as contacting CSSR president/chairman of the Communist party, Gustav Husák, in person in order to persuade him to allow Suchý to play. "We went to beg for Suchý", Pospíšil said in 2004 documentary (available somewhere on youtube).

Suchý did play the 1974 WHC, he was most productive d-man of his team and received fringe AST voting support. Then clashed with Karel Gut and he didn't nominate Suchý for any other tournament.

Suchý kept getting Golden Stick votes up to 1978 season. He still was a top-10 Czechoslovak d-man up to that point. His league stats were strong. After half of 1976-77 season was over, Suchy actually led the League´s “Canadian scoring” for defensemen (= basically mixed stat of throwing together points and +/-).
Suchý v 77.JPG

During this season, Suchy was up there on the scoring table with Pospisil and Bubla almost all season, only by the last quarter of the season he was fading away and finished 7th among d-men in this unorthodox "Canadian scoring" stat. His 20 points were 4th best among d-men, his +/- was 9th best among d-men and 11th best among all skaters.

I took a look at his other post-prime years and in 1975-76, Suchy´s +85 was 4th best among all skaters. In 1974-75, Suchy actually found himself on the first place among all league skaters with outstanding +135, and he did not even play in the National Team anymore!

From Suchý's last decent season (1978), there is this:


From each league game, journalists of Československý sport newspaper were giving a vote for player who showed “extraordinary or excellent performance”. Newspaper published the “Unit of the week” every Thursday. Two rounds have been played in one week, so these Units were based on the quality of play in two consecutive games. Article continues by listing players who appeared on the “Units of the week” at least once.

Goaltenders:
Holeček – 6 times named the best goalie of the week
Crha, Králík, Sakáč, Kapoun, Dzurilla – 2
Podešva, Plánička, Brož, Krása, Hovora – 1

Right Defensemen:
Bubla – 9
Suchý – 4
Kajkl, Zajíček, Figala – 2
Vejvoda, Kaberle – 1

Left Defensemen:
Pospíšil – 7
Dvořák – 6
Chalupa, Lyčka – 2
Horáček, Horešovský, Vlček, Kužela – 1

Even though Dukla wasn't league's dynasty anymore since 1975, this team still allowed the least amount of goals during this timefrime. They still had the best defense and 30+ years old Suchý was a part of it.
 
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DN28

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Thank you so much for posting this. As great as the peak of Vladimir Martinec was I would personally say that Suchy had the most impressive peak among Czechoslovakian players until the peaks of Hasek and Jagr. Would you agree on this? Just to be clear I rank Martinec ahead of Suchy due to him adding much more value outside of his peak but when looking only at their peaks I would say that Suchy edges him out.
This is how Suchy does when it comes to Czechoslovak Golden Stick voting shares. Keep in mind that the Golden Stick voting was conducted for the first time in 68/69 which means that two out of the five best seasons of Suchy happened before that award was voted on.
3-year average
  1. Vladimir Martinec: 16.0
  2. Jan Suchy: 15.8
  3. Jiri Holecek: 14.7
  4. Milan Novy: 14.1
  5. Frantisek Pospisil: 13.5
  6. Jiri Holik: 13.3
  7. Vaclav Nedomansky: 12.6
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 12.4
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 11.0
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 10.5
  11. Jiri Bubla: 9.1
5-year average
  1. Vladimir Martinec: 13.7
  2. Milan Novy: 12.8
  3. Jiri Holecek: 12.6
  4. Frantisek Pospisil: 11.6
  5. Vaclav Nedomansky: 11.2
  6. Jiri Holik: 10.5
  7. Jan Suchy: 10.2
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 10.1
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 9.0
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 7.5
  11. Jiri Bubla: 6.9
7-year average
  1. Vladimir Martinec: 11.9
  2. Milan Novy: 11.2
  3. Jiri Holecek: 11.1
  4. Frantisek Pospisil: 10.4
  5. Jiri Holik: 9.3
  6. Vaclav Nedomansky: 8.9
  7. Ivan Hlinka: 8.7
  8. Jan Suchy: 7.4
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 6.7
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 5.9
  11. Jiri Bubla: 5.4
Based on what we know about his 67/68 season I definitely think that we can say that Suchy would have been the overwhelming favourite to win a hypothetical Golden Stick voting that season. To try to make an estimation of what his voting share might have been I think that him recieving similar voting support to what he did in 69/70 (15.7%) seems like a good estimate. For the 66/67 season I would call him the favourite to win a hypothetical Golden Stick voting as well but it is less clearcut than in 67/68. A result somewhere around 13.0% seems like a reasonable and relatively conservative estimate for the 66/67 season considering that Suchy had a voting share of 13.9% in 70/71 when he finished as a close runner-up to Pospisil. So if we give Suchy estimated voting shares of 13.0% and 15.7% in those two seasons this is how his voting shares would look and how he compares to the other players of the golden generation.
3-year average
  1. Jan Suchy: 16.4 (est)
  2. Vladimir Martinec: 16.0
  3. Jiri Holecek: 14.7
  4. Milan Novy: 14.1
  5. Frantisek Pospisil: 13.5
  6. Jiri Holik: 13.3
  7. Vaclav Nedomansky: 12.6
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 12.4
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 11.0
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 10.5
  11. Jiri Bubla: 9.1
5-year average
  1. Jan Suchy: 15.2 (est)
  2. Vladimir Martinec: 13.7
  3. Milan Novy: 12.8
  4. Jiri Holecek: 12.6
  5. Frantisek Pospisil: 11.6
  6. Vaclav Nedomansky: 11.2
  7. Jiri Holik: 10.5
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 10.1
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 9.0
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 7.5
  11. Jiri Bubla: 6.9
7-year average
  1. Vladimir Martinec: 11.9
  2. Jan Suchy: 11.4 (est)
  3. Milan Novy: 11.2
  4. Jiri Holecek: 11.1
  5. Frantisek Pospisil: 10.4
  6. Jiri Holik: 9.3
  7. Vaclav Nedomansky: 8.9
  8. Ivan Hlinka: 8.7
  9. Vladimir Dzurilla: 6.7
  10. Jaroslav Holik: 5.9
  11. Jiri Bubla: 5.4
So when including the estimated voting shares for 66/67 and 67/68 Suchy beats out Martinec in both 3- year and 5-year averages and also edges out Novy and Holecek for second place behind Martinec in 7-year averages. Now it is worth noting that some other players like for example the Holik brothers, Nedomansky and Pospisil also likely would have improved their voting shares averages if the award had been around before 68/69. Still Suchy is almost certainly the player who would have benefited the most from this considering the strenght of his 66/67 and 67/68 seasons.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you. Suchý's peak is highest of any Czech player outside Jágr and Hašek.

I was going to do something similar with Golden Stick voting. Here are raw top-10 finishes of Martinec, Holeček and Suchý + presumed top-10 finishes of Suchý if the award existed before 1969:

Martinec: 1st (1973), 1st (1975), 1st (1976), 1st (1979), 3rd (1974), 4th (1977), 5th (1980), 6th (1981), 7th (1972), 7th (1978)
Suchý: 1st (1967), 1st (1968), 1st (1969), 1st (1970), 2nd (1971), top-10 (1966)
Holeček: 1st (1974), 2nd (1975), 2nd (1976), 2nd (1978), 5th (1971), 5th (1972), 5th (1973), 8th (1977)
 
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DN28

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Jan 2, 2014
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Definitely one of the top 4 defensemen in the world for 5 straight years, versus.......?

...versus 2nd best d-man in the world for 4 straight years after Orr?

Crazy talk?

I mean the quotes are there. You can read about Tarasov's obsession with Suchý. The guy was a difference-maker.

It's not like there isn't any video to judge it for yourself. I won't post that famous 1969 game that @Mike Farkas reviewed couple months ago. Everyone already heard about this game. Instead, you can watch entire WHC 1971 second game Czechs vs. Soviets and Suchý in it - the last Suchý's game pre-accident. Link is here. If you don't have enough time, then there is just 38 minutes long video from this very game on youtube also. Link is here.

For what is worth, here are my "Norris projections" for Vasiliev and Suchý. It's only my opinion. Whatever you think about, I think it should at least give you a perspective where Suchý stands vis-a-vis Vasiliev.

Valeri Vasiliev
1970: Irregular NHL player
1971: Irregular NHL player
1972: Full-time regular NHL player
1973: 6th best d-man
1974: 4th best d-man
1975: 4th best d-man
1976: 13th best d-man with fringe Norris voting support
1977: 6th best d-man
1978: 12th best d-man with fringe Norris voting support
1979: 1st best d-man
1980: 4th best d-man
1981: 4th best d-man
1982: 6th best d-man
1983: Full-time regular NHL player
1984: Full-time regular NHL player

Jan Suchý
1966: Irregular NHL player
1967: Full-time regular NHL player
1968: 2nd best d-man
1969: 2nd best d-man
1970: 2nd best d-man
1971: 2nd best d-man
1972: Full-time regular NHL player
1973: Full-time regular NHL player
1974: Full-time regular NHL player
1975: Full-time regular NHL player
1976: Full-time regular NHL player
1977: Full-time regular NHL player
1978: Full-time regular NHL player
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Marty Barry's playoff stats

Most points in the playoffs: 1930-1939:

Charlie Conacher 33
Marty Barry 33
Busher Jackson 25
Frank Boucher 25
Doc Romnes 25

Barry tied with Charlie Conacher for 1st, well ahead of the pack

Highest playoff PPG 1930-1939 (min 25 games):

Marty Barry 0.77 (43 games)
Johnny Gagnon 0.74 (31 games)
Charlie Conacher 0.72 (46 games)
Syd Howe 0.68 (25 games)
Frank Boucher 0.68 (37 games)

Barry #1, but with no separation from the pack.
 

ResilientBeast

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As I've reread the thread, I'm coming around on Barry. He's just someone outside of the ATD drafts I might never have even heard of and never quite appreciated his resume.

Kariya to me has felt on the bubble in this project for 3 rounds so naturally, I have him as an incumbent to receive a spot. But you're right Barry looks better

My big question about Barry is, we have ASTs from this era why isn't he on them? He has one 1st team over Herbie Lewis (incomplete data I'm sure) but he keeps losing out to other centers throughout the 30s

The competition is pretty tough, but the voter seemed to have Hooley in higher regard (I eyeballed this so any errors are accidental)

Early 30s: Boucher, Morenz, Hooley, Primeau
Mid 30s: Hooley, Thoms
Late 30s: Cowley, Apps, Schmidt, Colville

Edit: Is being the 4th or 5th best center of the 30s dramatically better than being the best LW at your peak in the 90s?

@TheDevilMadeMe

What do you make of this?
 

The Macho King

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48,929
29,714
Quiet so I'm going to shill for Hedman a bit more.

One of the only players I can think of who's playoff PPG is higher than his regular season PPG, and over a large sample size of 105 games (admittedly it's .64 versus .63, but still most players see a fairly significant decline). I think Hedman needs to be in the conversation of the top playoff performers of the 2010s.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,988
Brooklyn
@TheDevilMadeMe

What do you make of this?

The all-star voters of the 1930s clearly favored two-way players in a way they haven't for a long time now. It is evidence that Barry wasn't much more than his offense. Is it reason for us to vote for him as less than his offense? Maybe, maybe not.

His regular season offense is arguably the best this round. VsX would have him clearly the best, but as an insanely healthy player, Barry would have a little bit of an advantage in stats that look at full seasons (of course, one could also argue that healthy players should be thought of as better, I know there are two reasonable sides to that).

And his playoff offense was generally excellent.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,988
Brooklyn
Quiet so I'm going to shill for Hedman a bit more.

One of the only players I can think of who's playoff PPG is higher than his regular season PPG, and over a large sample size of 105 games (admittedly it's .64 versus .63, but still most players see a fairly significant decline). I think Hedman needs to be in the conversation of the top playoff performers of the 2010s.

I think this stat is skewed by the fact that Hedman played a larger percentage of playoff games at an older age, no?

His regular season stats are from ages 19-30
His playoff stats are age 20 (6 points in 18 games), then not again until ages 23-30.
Victor Hedman Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

That said, being the #1 dman on 4 Conference finalists in 6 years - he was definitely doing something right.
 

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