Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[ted2019]

I'm getting to be a chatty Cathy on here, but a few more I wanted to throw out there that I'm considering on the edge who I could use some further commentary on or would love to just discuss:
-Hooley Smith- Seems like an early pest who has two pretty damn impressive seasons and had a nose for the net which stood out to me, for that era.
-Paul Stastny- I think there are some sound knocks on him, but if Hawerchuk is getting in, he needs consideration.
-Roy Conacher- Need to learn more about him, but his peers seemed to highly respect him.
-Mike Gartner- I personally want him nowhere near this list, but his aggregate totals are lurking. I just never found him to be transcendent in any measure besides speed and consistency...which I do suppose count.

I'll keep throwing out more in the coming days but these are just guys I'm looking into while also taking into consideration all the previous players mentioned in other posts. It's fun narrowing these down!

I like Hooley.
I like Conacher
Stastny is a must.
Gartner is a big no for me.

 

[ted2019]

Honestly, we could use a "chatty Kathy" on Buffalo, Islanders, Kings, among others...don't be shy...

Butch Goring.

 

[ted2019]

Well I appreciate that haha.

I didn't want to bring up LaFontaine, because he's my profile picture on here and I've been preaching his peak in this forum in the past. Since he's a former Isle and Sabre though, I guess I'll toss him out there.

I don't think I have him in my top 200 at this point, but he's neck and neck with Roenick for me at the bottom tier in my top 200 HMs.

Roenick deserves discussion but I watched a lot of LaFontaine and I'd say that he was the more talented player. His playoff record after leaving NYI just kills him, though. I was really getting into the Sabres around 92-93 and he was just never expected to be healthy. Hawerchuck and Mogilny carried the offense on those teams with Bodger helping out a lot on the PP. Obviously, we had Hasek at that point, but I don't think Hasek from 92-96 is the same as Hasek from 97-03. He was obviously great, but he wasn't the same player early on.

I could use some insight on the Kings more. I have a pretty low opinion on Robitaille as a game-changer but I also think he can't be discounted as a passenger. He's on my list but in the 180s. Other than him, for the Kings, I'm going to go hard for Doughty from here on out. He is in my 120s currently. He had two dominant postseasons and just tilts the ice in a way that reminds me of an older-era player. I don't think I'm going to budge on him.

I included Kopitar on my list but I'm low on him and have been admonished for this before. He's a very good player and his longevity is getting better and better, but I don't think that Kings team was his when they were at their peak. I think it was Doughty's team and Quick's team but I can be convinced otherwise. His TOI is impressive for all of those runs.

Someone tell me more about Tonelli and the other dynasty Islanders who should be on the list. Billy Smith made my initial rounds. I haven't found a place for him yet but I'm also learning from all of you a lot, too.

Billy Smith is a nice name, as is Tonelli.
Butch Goring is a name that I've thought about.
Roenick is maybe at the bottom part of my list.
LaFontaine around the same.
Turgeon is a another name I've looked at.

 

[ted2019]

Not a fan of his beliefs, but a name that has popped up for me is Tim Thomas. For me, his peak is like one Bernard Marcel Parent's ( without the Hart Trophy)

 

[Michael Farkas]

Fringe goalie...deserves no consideration from me, of course...

 

[DitchMarner]

I'm interested in seeing how many people include Kovalchuk in the top 200. He looks good on paper, but he was pretty much a floater who played on poor teams and received a lot of PP time for a good portion of his NHL career. Seems like a possible top 200 talent, but I'm not sure his body of work justifies inclusion on a top 200 list.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Easily a top 200 talent...but what did he deliver with it...? He'll definitely be in consideration for me, but whether I go, "yeah, he's at 117" or "woof, he's like 366..." I have no idea...

 

[ted2019]

I'm interested in seeing how many people include Kovalchuk in the top 200. He looks good on paper, but he was pretty much a floater who played on poor teams and received a lot of PP time for a good portion of his NHL career. Seems like a possible top 200 talent, but I'm not sure his body of work justifies inclusion on a top 200 list.

None from me.

 

[ted2019]

Easily a top 200 talent...but what did he deliver with it...? He'll definitely be in consideration for me, but whether I go, "yeah, he's at 117" or "woof, he's like 366..." I have no idea...

The old adage of having a million dollar body and a 10 cent brain applies to Kovalchuk for me.

 

[ted2019]

Fringe goalie...deserves no consideration from me, of course...

Surprised to hear that. I figured that you would've liked his peak.

 

[Michael Farkas]

That was a minor league/fringe NHL goalie for me that fell into the right situation at the right time...he was a complete mess in the net. Most of his heroics that made highlight reels were self-made disasters and/or poor anticipation plays...I value reliability as a base for goaltending and build out from there, Thomas is the antithesis of that...

That's why his career numbers fall to pieces outside of the Julien/Chara/Bergeron triumvirate...it's pretty well documented here, but I have exactly no time for him...he's one of the ultimate sucker's bets in the history of the game...

 

[Professor What]

A bit of devil's advocate on Thomas. Yes, he had his flaws, but he tended to stay cool under pressure. Compare that to his successor in Rask, whose, let's just say, "excitability" has led to some very serious, very costly meltdowns. Yet, Rask is often praised as one of the top guys in net, even though he can't hold it together under pressure. Give me Thomas in a high pressure game any day.

On a totally unrelated note, a couple of the names that have been thrown out, such as Baker and Tumba demonstrate to me that there's a significant difference between what we're doing and Hall of Fame selections that I think needs to be pointed out. Historical significance is going to play a role here, but not as much as in HOF inductions. I think Baker and Tumba both belong there, based strictly on their historical significance, yet, I don't see either of them getting a sniff here, since I see this as much more on-ice based. Others might disagree with me, and that's fine, but it feels like a point worth making.

 

[ted2019]

Tom Barrasso is one goalie I'm on the fence about. 5x Vezina finalist, but is he a product of those Penguin teams? In HO's great adjusted save % thread Adjusted-Save-Percentage-Regular-Season-1956-2020, Barrasso doesn't look that bad.

In HO's Goalies-Adjusted-Playoff-Save-Percentage-1984-2020, Barrasso is once again hit or miss, including this statement: "Keep in mind that career save percentage is, by definition, a career average. Tom Barrasso had a few rough playoffs at the start and end of his career, and that dragged down his average. His career average of 90.8% is barely above average; if one focuses on his prime from 1988 to 1996, Barrasso's save percentage rises to a very strong 91.6%."

In this HO's thread Career Adjusted-Save-Percentage Barrasso is among the elite in regards to best peak.

 

[buffalowing88]

Billy Smith is a nice name, as is Tonelli.
Butch Goring is a name that I've thought about.
Roenick is maybe at the bottom part of my list.
LaFontaine around the same.
Turgeon is a another name I've looked at.

I have Turgeon in there but I'm not exactly enthusiastic about it.

I looked back at Goring's record after you mentioned him. I didn't include him in my draft so far but I'm not going to discredit his playoff contributions. He's fringe imo.

Also, re: Tim Thomas. What a weird career. Two very high peaks, two more good years...and then nothing stands out. I was surprised his Vezina voting was relatively low. He only got votes in three seasons. I wonder if having a strong defense held him back in the eyes of some voters....I don't have him on the draft I currently am working with but I do tend to skew towards peak over longevity so I'm all ears if anyone makes a case.

 

[buffalowing88]

That was a minor league/fringe NHL goalie for me that fell into the right situation at the right time...he was a complete mess in the net. Most of his heroics that made highlight reels were self-made disasters and/or poor anticipation plays...I value reliability as a base for goaltending and build out from there, Thomas is the antithesis of that...

That's why his career numbers fall to pieces outside of the Julien/Chara/Bergeron triumvirate...it's pretty well documented here, but I have exactly no time for him...he's one of the ultimate sucker's bets in the history of the game...

Damn, tell me how you really feel haha.

 

[Professor What]

I'm interested in the gut feelings of those that worked on the non-NHL Euro project, as well as anyone else knowledgeable on the subject as to roughly where you think the consideration cutoff for those players might fall. For convenience, I've quoted the table here.

Rank	Player	Pos.	Born	Died	Nationality
1	Vyacheslav Fetisov	D	1958		Russia/USSR
2	Sergei Makarov	RW	1958		Russia/USSR
3	Valeri Kharlamov	LW	1948	1981	Russia/USSR
4	Anatoli Firsov	LW	1941	2000	Russia/USSR
5	Vladislav Tretiak	G	1952		Russia/USSR
6	Boris Mikhailov	RW	1944		Russia/USSR
7	Alexander Maltsev	C, RW	1949		Russia/USSR
8	Vladimír Martinec	RW	1949		Czechia/ČSSR
9	Jiří Holeček	G	1944		Czechia/ČSSR
10	Valeri Vasiliev	D	1949		Russia/USSR
11	Václav Nedomanský	C, RW	1944		Czechia/ČSSR
12	Jan Suchý	D	1944		Czechia/ČSSR
13	Vladimir Petrov	C	1947		Russia/USSR
14	František Pospíšil	D	1944		Czechia/ČSSR
15	Vladimir Krutov	W	1960	2012	Russia/USSR
16	Alexei Kasatonov	D	1959		Russia/USSR
17	Alexander Yakushev	LW	1947		Russia/USSR
18	Igor Larionov	C	1960		Russia/USSR
19	Milan Nový	C	1951		Czechia/ČSSR
20	Sven "Tumba" Johansson	C	1931	2011	Sweden
21	Vladimír Zábrodský	C	1923		Czechia/ČSSR
22	Vsevolod Bobrov	LW	1922	1979	Russia/USSR
23	Helmuts Balderis	RW	1952		Latvia/USSR
24	Jiří Holík	LW	1944		Czechia/ČSSR
25	Vyacheslav Starshinov	C	1940		Russia/USSR
26	Nikolai Sologubov	D	1924	1988	Russia/USSR
27	Ivan Hlinka	C	1950	2004	Czechia/ČSSR
28	Alexander Ragulin	D	1941	2004	Russia/USSR
29	Veniamin Alexandrov	LW	1937	1991	Russia/USSR
30	Lennart Svedberg	D	1944	1972	Sweden
31	Sergei Kapustin	LW	1953	1995	Russia/USSR
32	Vladimir Lutchenko	D	1949		Russia/USSR
33	Vitali Davydov	D	1939		Russia/USSR
34	Josef Maleček	F	1903	1982	Czechia/ČSSR
35	Vladimír Dzurilla	G	1942		Slovakia/ČSSR
36	Ulf Sterner	LW	1941		Sweden
37	Håkan Loob	RW	1960		Sweden
38	Konstantin Loktev	RW	1933	1996	Russia/USSR
39	Alexander Almetov	C	1940	1992	Russia/USSR
40	Vladimir Vikulov	RW	1946		Russia/USSR
41	Vlastimil Bubník	RW	1931	2015	Czechia/ČSSR
42	Peter Lindmark	G	1956		Sweden
43	Viktor Shalimov	RW	1951		Russia/USSR
44	Jiří Bubla	D	1950		Czechia/ČSSR
45	Boris Mayorov	C	1938		Russia/USSR
46	Jozef Golonka	C	1938		Slovakia/ČSSR
47	Nils Nilsson	C	1936	2017	Sweden
48	Erich Kühnhackl	C	1950		Germany/BRD
49	Vyacheslav Bykov	C	1960		Russia/USSR
50	Jiří Králík	G	1952		Czechia/ČSSR

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

​

 

[seventieslord]

I am pretty sure I'll run out of room for Kovalchuk.

I'm much closer to the HOH party line than I am to Mike Farkas on the subject of Thomas, but I'm pretty sure I won't have any room for him, either.

Turgeon will be close.

 

[Theokritos]

I'm interested in the gut feelings of those that worked on the non-NHL Euro project, as well as anyone else knowledgeable on the subject as to roughly where you think the consideration cutoff for those players might fall. For convenience, I've quoted the table here.

From the last thread:

I'll just list and group the European players (almost all of them Eastern Bloc players) who deserve consideration based purely on the prior HOH projects.

Consensus top 6:

Those players rank 1st to 6th on the European list and they are also the six Eastern bloc players who made the top 100 list.

Fetisov (#1 on the European list, #25 on the Top 100 list)
Makarov (#2 on the European list, #26 on the Top 100 list)
Kharlamov (#3 on the European list, #43 on the Top 100 list)
Firsov (#4 on the European list, #70 on the Top 100 list)
Tretiak (#5 on the European list, #50 on the Top 100 list)
Mikhailov (#6 on the European list, #86 on the Top 100 list)

Consensus next 12:

Those players rank 7th to 18th on the European list. They didn't make the top 100 list, but show up on the positional lists.

Maltsev (#7 on the European list, #33 on the Top 60 Centers list)
Martinec (#8 on the European list, #32 on the Top 60 Wingers list)
Holeček (#9 on the European list, #20 on the Top 40 Goaltenders list)
Vasiliev (#10 on the European list, #25 on the Top 60 Defensemen list)
Nedomanský (#11 on the European list, #57 on the Top 60 Centers list)
Suchý (#12 on the European list, #49 on the Top 60 Defensemen list)
Petrov (#13 on the European list, #49 on the Top 60 Centers list)
Pospíšil (#14 on the European list, #58 on the Top 60 Defensemen list)
Krutov (#15 on the European list, #44 on the Top 60 Wingers list)
Kasatonov (#16 on the European list, #39 on the Top 60 Defensemen list)
Yakushev (#17 on the European list, #48 on the Top 60 Wingers list)
Larionov (#18 on the European list, #51 on the Top 60 Centers list)

The following 12:

Those players rank 19th to 30th on the European list. Only Balderis shows up on the positional lists, but maybe a case can be made that some of the others should too.

Nový (#19 on the European list over Balderis, but didn't make the positional list)
Tumba (#20 on the European list over Balderis, but didn't make the positional list)
Zábrodský (#21 on the European list over Balderis, but didn't make the positional list)
Bobrov (#22 on the European list over Balderis, but didn't make the positional list)
Balderis (only #23 on the European list, but made the Top 60 Wingers list at #54)
Holík (#24 on the European list)
Starshinov (#25 on the European list)
Sologubov (#26 on the European list)
Hlinka (#27 on the European list)
Ragulin (#28 on the European list)
Alexandrov (#29 on the European list)
Svedberg (#30 on the European list)

 

[Professor What]

From the last thread:

I remember your posting that now. My bad.

 

[Theokritos]

I remember your posting that now. My bad.

No harm, looks like it's a good time to bring it up again.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm interested in seeing how many people include Kovalchuk in the top 200. He looks good on paper, but he was pretty much a floater who played on poor teams and received a lot of PP time for a good portion of his NHL career. Seems like a possible top 200 talent, but I'm not sure his body of work justifies inclusion on a top 200 list.

Not on my list.

 

[ted2019]

Rank em':
Joe Primeau
Syd Howe
Jean Ratelle
Babe Dye
Frank Fredrickson
Frank Foyston
Frank Finnigan
Reg Noble
Bert Olmstead
Punch Broadbent
Woody Dumart
Bernie Morris

 

[plusandminus]

I'm interested in the gut feelings of those that worked on the non-NHL Euro project, as well as anyone else knowledgeable on the subject as to roughly where you think the consideration cutoff for those players might fall. For convenience, I've quoted the table here.

I'll just list and group the European players (almost all of them Eastern Bloc players) who deserve consideration based purely on the prior HOH projects.

Consensus top 6:

Those players rank 1st to 6th on the European list and they are also the six Eastern bloc players who made the top 100 list.

Fetisov (#1 on the European list, #25 on the Top 100 list)
Makarov (#2 on the European list, #26 on the Top 100 list)
Kharlamov (#3 on the European list, #43 on the Top 100 list)
Firsov (#4 on the European list, #70 on the Top 100 list)
Tretiak (#5 on the European list, #50 on the Top 100 list)
Mikhailov (#6 on the European list, #86 on the Top 100 list)

Consensus next 12:

Those players rank 7th to 18th on the European list. They didn't make the top 100 list, but show up on the positional lists.

Maltsev (#7 on the European list, #33 on the Top 60 Centers list)
Martinec (#8 on the European list, #32 on the Top 60 Wingers list)
Holeček (#9 on the European list, #20 on the Top 40 Goaltenders list)
Vasiliev (#10 on the European list, #25 on the Top 60 Defensemen list)
Nedomanský (#11 on the European list, #57 on the Top 60 Centers list)
Suchý (#12 on the European list, #49 on the Top 60 Defensemen list)
Petrov (#13 on the European list, #49 on the Top 60 Centers list)
Pospíšil (#14 on the European list, #58 on the Top 60 Defensemen list)
Krutov (#15 on the European list, #44 on the Top 60 Wingers list)
Kasatonov (#16 on the European list, #39 on the Top 60 Defensemen list)
Yakushev (#17 on the European list, #48 on the Top 60 Wingers list)
Larionov (#18 on the European list, #51 on the Top 60 Centers list)

The following 12:

Those players rank 19th to 30th on the European list. Only Balderis shows up on the positional lists, but maybe a case can be made that some of the others should too.

Nový (#19 on the European list over Balderis, but didn't make the positional list)
Tumba (#20 on the European list over Balderis, but didn't make the positional list)
Zábrodský (#21 on the European list over Balderis, but didn't make the positional list)
Bobrov (#22 on the European list over Balderis, but didn't make the positional list)
Balderis (only #23 on the European list, but made the Top 60 Wingers list at #54)
Holík (#24 on the European list)
Starshinov (#25 on the European list)
Sologubov (#26 on the European list)
Hlinka (#27 on the European list)
Ragulin (#28 on the European list)
Alexandrov (#29 on the European list)
Svedberg (#30 on the European list)

I would incluce Krutov and Kasatonov. (Edit: Deleted a sentence.)

I think it's good that North Americans here seem to think more highly about Krutov compared to some years ago. Before going to the NHL he was very good. Unfortunately he didn't feel well mentally over there. Just like some all-time-great North Americans, he didn't do much efter age 28. In their case because their body wasn't the same (due to injuries, etc), and in his case due to his head (and body, as he stopped take proper care of it).

I think Kasatonov is underrated among North Americans. He was part of one of the two-best (or so) defensive pairings ever (according to polls here). I saw him play probably more than 100 times, and found him to be excellent defensively (one of the all-time best) as well as offensively (though not very technically skilled). Sometimes he was better than Fetisov, and often about as good. I remember the commentators (Hegerfors, Virus Lindberg, Ankan Parmström) saying that too.
NHL wasn't easy for him, having a bad relationship with Fetisov, not speaking English, being a different person than Fetisov and Larionov, etc.
Judging him by what he accually did accomplish on the ice, in terms of playing and being part of winning teams, I think he even deserves to be in the upper half of the top-150. Just watch him play.

But... the North American arguments will probably be about what Kasatonov and Krutov didn't do. Many North Americans will think of them as "nothing special" regarding their NHL play, and will "dismiss" their factual accomplishments by claiming they benefitted by playing with the same great teammates season after season.

(Some North Americans too played under the same circumstances(?), for example during their prime years on the same team with the same teammates. The MTL dynasties, O6-DET, NYI... And most of them mainly "only" showed their greatness within the NHL, unlike the mentioned Soviets who excelled everywhere during their prime.)

I notice Petrov (49) and Larionov (51) were only 2 places apart on the "best centers" list, but 5 places apart on the best European list (13 and 18). Although Larionov adapted well in the NHL, and had better longevity, I think Petrov had better peak. So I too would put Petrov higher than Larionov.

Edit: I think Kowalchuk's overall play shouldn't make him a top-200 player. He was great at goal scoring, but lacked in other areas.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Pass on Barrasso too...

 

[ted2019]

Pass on Barrasso too...

Alec Connell?
Percy LeSueur?
Hap Holmes?