Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

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buffalowing88

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The main reason I had Doughty over Karlsson on that list was NHL playoffs not international/best on best

EDIT: Just to be clear in the post you replied to, I was saying where I'd put Weber and Karlsson on TDMM's list of playoffs ranking
I think the NHL playoff argument really means a lot in this context. Great players are defined by their team success just as much as their individual peak if they are already at the plateau where they are winning awards. I don't think anyone is disputing that Karlsson had a supernova of a peak that we may not see again for a long time, but if it's a big game environment I think I lean Doughty. His reputation in those games has established him early on and I think he'll have another good playoff run in him should be become a mercenary veteran in 3/4 years...unless LA can put it together again in the meantime.
 

buffalowing88

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Comparing a few Norris records:

Hedman: 1, 3, 3, 3, 7, 9
Doughty: 1, 2, 2, 3, 6, 7, 9
Blake: 1, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8
Niedermayer: 1, 2, 2, 5, 9, 10, 12

Add in playoffs, etc, my preliminary rank of them:

1. Doughty
2. Niedermayer
3. Hedman
4. Blake

But all reasonably close.

This really made me appreciate Hedman even more. I didn't realize just how established his legacy already is. Scary to think how good it will look if things stay on track for another 4-5 years.
 

buffalowing88

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Some forwards I'm currently mulling over if anyone wants to add if they think they belong or I'm reaching and maybe generate some more discussion:
-Rick Martin
-Marian Hossa
-Pavel Datsyuk
-Johnny Bucyk
-Alexander Mogilny
-Rod Gilbert
-Brendan Shanahan

I have my non-NHL and pre-1967 players to discuss as well, but these were some more modern era guys I've currently got on the list but have questions about as they aren't locks for me.
 

East Coast Icestyle

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Karlsson's peak was grand, but when he's not at the top of his game, he's between average and above average to me (injury or no injury) . Defensively, he leaves a lot to be desired.

I think defensively Karlsson has had seasons where he's been very good, but he's also had seasons next to players like Marc Methot who allow him freedom/confidence and pushes the system in a different way when he's on the ice. Its interesting now on San Jose where his first season he still seemed quite elite and had a defensive stabilizer, but the second season and after consecutive injuries, too, that team was sort of a mess overall.

His legacy largely will lie on his longevity now as having a top 5-10 peak and then being known as 'above average' when you're literally at your worst is more impressive than I feel people would admit.

Some forwards I'm currently mulling over if anyone wants to add if they think they belong or I'm reaching and maybe generate some more discussion:
-Rick Martin
-Marian Hossa
-Pavel Datsyuk
-Johnny Bucyk
-Alexander Mogilny
-Rod Gilbert
-Brendan Shanahan

I have my non-NHL and pre-1967 players to discuss as well, but these were some more modern era guys I've currently got on the list but have questions about as they aren't locks for me.

Hossa is a weird case. I absolutely think he's a Hall of Fame guy like he is, but I'm also not sure he's a top 100 guy. Maybe more in the 150-200 range. Insane defensive acumen, 5 finals appearances although you could claim he chased for a few seasons. Strong career totals, but then... his peak totals aren't overwhelmingly impressive. How would you compare Hossa to say, Heatley or Kovalchuk for peak?
 

buffalowing88

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I think defensively Karlsson has had seasons where he's been very good, but he's also had seasons next to players like Marc Methot who allow him freedom/confidence and pushes the system in a different way when he's on the ice. Its interesting now on San Jose where his first season he still seemed quite elite and had a defensive stabilizer, but the second season and after consecutive injuries, too, that team was sort of a mess overall.

His legacy largely will lie on his longevity now as having a top 5-10 peak and then being known as 'above average' when you're literally at your worst is more impressive than I feel people would admit.



Hossa is a weird case. I absolutely think he's a Hall of Fame guy like he is, but I'm also not sure he's a top 100 guy. Maybe more in the 150-200 range. Insane defensive acumen, 5 finals appearances although you could claim he chased for a few seasons. Strong career totals, but then... his peak totals aren't overwhelmingly impressive. How would you compare Hossa to say, Heatley or Kovalchuk for peak?

I definitely don't think he's top-100 but I can at least see a case to be made! I think you captured his attributes pretty perfectly. I currently have him hovering around 150 so I'm with you I think. It's interesting that you bring up Heatley and Kovalchuk as comps. I think those three will always be tied at the hip. Heatley had that incredible peak with Ottawa, but I have to discount it a bit because he was on arguably the best line in the league for 3+ years. Kovalchuk was probably the most dominant from what I've seen. He's on my list but closer to 175 atm. Hossa just seemed like the most dependable and he showed up in the playoffs (you make a good point about him chasing a bit but I don't hold him wanting to be competitive against him).

Thanks for the insights!
 
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Theokritos

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I don't fawn over it like some do (except when necessary, Iron Curtain years)...it's another playoffs for me. One thing I use it for a lot is adaptability...what happened when Joe Thornton was on the 4th line...what happened when d-man whoever was only playing 16 minutes...what happened when so and so played on wide ice...adaptability is a big, big trait for me that you don't readily find in the newspaper, so I look to these varied situations...players that have never been in any other situation too...

I'd like to second this. Another aspect that somewhat overlaps with adaptability:

When the 1967 expansion happened, quite a few players who had limited roles on those stacked O6 teams suddenly became scorers on weaker teams. Which is good for them and it also teaches us something about how limiting roles can be, but at the same time it also shows us that different situations on different teams can really make it hard to compare two top scorers who play on different teams. Put them on the same team and it becomes clearer how good they are compared to each other. The cream rises to the top. Putting elite NHL players on stacked national teams is a little like an O6 throwback to me. It's like you reverse the 1967 expansion, contract the league, put a lot of very good players on a few powerhouse teams and see what happens. Is peak Markus Näslund still a leading scorer when you put him in the Tre Kronor jersey or is Mats Sundin? Is young Alexander Yakushev still a goalgetter like he is on Spartak Moscow's second line when you put him on the Soviet national team or does he suddenly take a backseat? Etc.
 

quoipourquoi

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This really made me appreciate Hedman even more. I didn't realize just how established his legacy already is. Scary to think how good it will look if things stay on track for another 4-5 years.

I’d like to think by then that we’ll be as suspect of team influence on defensive awards rankings in this era as we are of team influence on goaltending awards rankings in the Brimsek-era.
 
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Professor What

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I have a problem ranking Karlsson for a few different reasons. First, he's my favorite player, so I try to be careful not to view him too highly. But, then, there is this:

I think defensively Karlsson has had seasons where he's been very good, but he's also had seasons next to players like Marc Methot who allow him freedom/confidence and pushes the system in a different way when he's on the ice. Its interesting now on San Jose where his first season he still seemed quite elite and had a defensive stabilizer, but the second season and after consecutive injuries, too, that team was sort of a mess overall.

His legacy largely will lie on his longevity now as having a top 5-10 peak and then being known as 'above average' when you're literally at your worst is more impressive than I feel people would admit.

Even though I'm a Senators fan, I have no problem acknowledging that the Sens teams during his peak would have utterly sucked without Karlsson. I know they didn't make the playoffs every time, but that's not what I mean. They would have sucked. Their not making the playoffs is the #2 excuse I've heard for his not getting that Norris in 2016. But what would that team have looked like without Karlsson? That would have been a disaster. In 2015, everyone got caught up in the Andrew Hammond hype, and while Hammond's play was important, Karlsson was still the real heart and soul of that team. In 2017, I don't think that team makes the playoffs without Karlsson, and they certainly don't come within a double overtime goal of the Stanley Cup Finals without him. If you want to look at the official definition of the Hart Trophy, he's the kind of player the award is designed for.

I'm really starting to think that I'm underestimating him. At peak play, how many defensemen have been at his level? That's a short list. He holds the record for the most consecutive seasons leading his team in scoring for a defenseman, a record he took from Denis Potvin. If you exclude the wonky early seasons of the NHL, where assists were an odd statistic, he's the only defenseman other than Bobby Orr to lead the league in defense. In 2016-17, he was the first defenseman since Paul Coffey, 30 years earlier to finish in the top five in scoring. And honestly, look at the teams most of the game's recognized top defensemen played on. While Ray Bourque is an exception, most of them played on teams that had plenty of other weapons for sizeable parts of their careers. Karlsson had to put his team on his back and carry it. Let him do that in a market like Toronto or New York, and there would be a big difference in how he was viewed. Let him play at his peak level on an actual good team, and his numbers would have been through the roof. Then, there's the fact that, again, he's got much better defensive ability than he's credited with, as I and @East Coast Icestyle have pointed out. Ultimately, Karlsson has successfully played the styles that he's been asked to play under various coaches and systems. And, even with what looks like a short peak, at no point in his career do I not see a player I'd like to have on my team in Karlsson.

I'm not saying that he's a top 10 all-time defenseman, because, quite frankly, he isn't. I don't think he's a slam dunk top 100 player, but I think there's a very strong argument for it. One of the problems here is evaluating peak vs longevitiy. If you go for the peak, I think he has to be top 100. If you go for longevity more, he's going to fall quite a bit. While I've long enjoyed making historical player comparisons, this is the first truly in depth total player ranking that I've ever put a lot of effort into, and honestly, even trying to hold myself back because of favoritism, Karlsson is now looking better than I've ever realized before.
 

sr edler

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International best-on-best tourneys are obviously invaluable info to judge top tier players on. The Mats Sundin vs Markus Näslund example above is spot on. Sexy regular season numbers are relatively low on my list when compared to playoffs and best-on-best international competition. Marinko Vukota once scored a natural hat-trick in a regular season game. Gino Odjick once scored 16 goals in a season. Regular season is more of a job and people on jobs aren't always throwing their souls around. Olympics on the other hand athletes from all sports talk like little kids about.
 

plusandminus

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I'd like to second this. Another aspect that somewhat overlaps with adaptability:

When the 1967 expansion happened, quite a few players who had limited roles on those stacked O6 teams suddenly became scorers on weaker teams. Which is good for them and it also teaches us something about how limiting roles can be, but at the same time it also shows us that different situations on different teams can really make it hard to compare two top scorers who play on different teams. Put them on the same team and it becomes clearer how good they are compared to each other. The cream rises to the top. Putting elite NHL players on stacked national teams is a little like an O6 throwback to me. It's like you reverse the 1967 expansion, contract the league, put a lot of very good players on a few powerhouse teams and see what happens. Is peak Markus Näslund still a leading scorer when you put him in the Tre Kronor jersey or is Mats Sundin? Is young Alexander Yakushev still a goalgetter like he is on Spartak Moscow's second line when you put him on the Soviet national team or does he suddenly take a backseat? Etc.

I agree a lot.

I studied scoring distribution within teams some years ago, and posted some results here. Basically, most teams follow about the same distributions within a team. For example, PP icetime matters a lot. And all teams get to play PP.
Even teams like the 1974-75 WSH actually scored fairly many goals. They scored 66 % of the amount of goals the average team scored, and PP goals scored was 75 % of the average team. (Now, in this case their leading scorer finished as low as 73rd in scoring. Similar with Kansas. So bad example in that sense.)

This may also somewhat apply to Kühnhackl, who I saw was mentioned here. I saw him many times (and with his size he was easy to notice). He was very good, but who knows how he would have done on a team where he would be more of an average player? Even lesser good teams score goals, and someone "must" set them up or score them. Kühnhackl also sometimes got to play his last 3 or so games in tournaments vs the lesser good teams (5th-8th among 8 teams participating), for example in 1978 when he was the leading WC scorer.
I don't remember Kühnhackl as an overall great player.
Here's a good article on him (perhaps posted here already).
International Hockey Legends: Erich Kuhnhackl
I didn't know he was born in Czechoslovakia and moved to West Germany at age 18.
Regarding West German hockey... I seemed as if they usually had the same players playing tournament after tournament. Sometimes that is interpreted as a sign of weak internal competition.
I would personally not put Kühnhackl (or any other West German or German) on a top-200 list, unless it's about honoring those who dominated most in their domestic and national team environment.

I also keep thinking of that French guy... Bellemare... He sometimes looked very good during international tournaments. He might seem like an above average player on the ice even against the best teams, but would he even have made the team for CAN, SWE, RUS, USA, etc..?

The topic raised here also contributes to the difficulty in ranking the Soviets. They excelled in every environment; large rink, small rink, vs European style, vs NHL style, on home ice, on away ice, on CSKA/etc vs NHL teams... But... They also usually benefitted from playing with the same familiar teammates, on very good teams. Just like many NHLers, for example on MTL.


Markus Näslund (N)...
I would place Alfredsson clearly ahead of N. Alfredsson always contributed and was better defensively. N is a player that benefitted from playing in an optimal environment (Bertuzzi, Morrison, etc) during his NHL peak. He was however once being voted the NHL's best player, by the players, which complicates things a bit.
I have Mats Näslund ahead of N, and many other Swedes have as well.

Mats Näslund might be underrated among North Americans, who might use words like "retired at age 30" for a player that left the NHL around age 30 to play in Europe and later - at age 34 - won an Olympic Gold medal scoring 7 pts in 8 games. Mats Näslund also once was the leading scorer on a Stanley Cup winning MTL team, during regular season by a large margin and during playoffs by 19 pts to 16. He was a small but very smart player.

(By the way, scoring distribution within a team is another case where Gretzky and Mario really stood out. Not only did they play on high scoring teams. They actually scored a point on an extremely high percentage of their team's goals, in Gretzky's case sometimes more than 50 %. For duos, Kariya-Selänne was an extreme example.)
 
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ted2019

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Some forwards I'm currently mulling over if anyone wants to add if they think they belong or I'm reaching and maybe generate some more discussion:
-Rick Martin
-Marian Hossa
-Pavel Datsyuk
-Johnny Bucyk
-Alexander Mogilny
-Rod Gilbert
-Brendan Shanahan

I have my non-NHL and pre-1967 players to discuss as well, but these were some more modern era guys I've currently got on the list but have questions about as they aren't locks for me.

I have Datsyuk/Hossa/Bucyk/Gilbert/ on my list right now. Martin's VsX 7 year point total is below Taylor Hall, Alex Tanguay & Milan Hejduk. His 10 year point total is below Dennis Maruk, Marc Savard. Martin's 7 year goal total is ahead of Shanahan and right below Malkin, Crosby, Bucyk. 10 year goal total is below Lorne Carr.
 

ted2019

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International best-on-best tourneys are obviously invaluable info to judge top tier players on. The Mats Sundin vs Markus Näslund example above is spot on. Sexy regular season numbers are relatively low on my list when compared to playoffs and best-on-best international competition. Marinko Vukota once scored a natural hat-trick in a regular season game. Gino Odjick once scored 16 goals in a season. Regular season is more of a job and people on jobs aren't always throwing their souls around. Olympics on the other hand athletes from all sports talk like little kids about.

Didn't think I would see a Mick Vukota reference on here.
 

buffalowing88

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I have Datsyuk/Hossa/Bucyk/Gilbert/ on my list right now. Martin's VsX 7 year point total is below Taylor Hall, Alex Tanguay & Milan Hejduk. His 10 year point total is below Dennis Maruk, Marc Savard. Martin's 7 year goal total is ahead of Shanahan and right below Malkin, Crosby, Bucyk. 10 year goal total is below Lorne Carr.

yeah...the homer in me is having a hard time leaving him off because I’ve watched all the old games and I do think he was special. Maybe not top 200 though. I can concede that.

Any thoughts on Mogilny?
 

wetcoast

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Some forwards I'm currently mulling over if anyone wants to add if they think they belong or I'm reaching and maybe generate some more discussion:
-Rick Martin
-Marian Hossa
-Pavel Datsyuk
-Johnny Bucyk
-Alexander Mogilny
-Rod Gilbert
-Brendan Shanahan

I have my non-NHL and pre-1967 players to discuss as well, but these were some more modern era guys I've currently got on the list but have questions about as they aren't locks for me.


I was going to say that he is already on the top 100 list but when I looked he wasn't but he is better than some guys on that list already IMO.

Bucyk and Datsyuk are locks off the top of my head and then Gilbert, Shanny and Hossa are on the next tier.

Mogilny and Martin have a couple of questions if they make it.
 
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buffalowing88

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I agree a lot.

I studied scoring distribution within teams some years ago, and posted some results here. Basically, most teams follow about the same distributions within a team. For example, PP icetime matters a lot. And all teams get to play PP.
Even teams like the 1974-75 WSH actually scored fairly many goals. They scored 66 % of the amount of goals the average team scored, and PP goals scored was 75 % of the average team. (Now, in this case their leading scorer finished as low as 73rd in scoring. Similar with Kansas. So bad example in that sense.)

This may also somewhat apply to Kühnhackl, who I saw was mentioned here. I saw him many times (and with his size he was easy to notice). He was very good, but who knows how he would have done on a team where he would be more of an average player? Even lesser good teams score goals, and someone "must" set them up or score them. Kühnhackl also sometimes got to play his last 3 or so games in tournaments vs the lesser good teams (5th-8th among 8 teams participating), for example in 1978 when he was the leading WC scorer.
I don't remember Kühnhackl as an overall great player.
Here's a good article on him (perhaps posted here already).
International Hockey Legends: Erich Kuhnhackl
I didn't know he was born in Czechoslovakia and moved to West Germany at age 18.
Regarding West German hockey... I seemed as if they usually had the same players playing tournament after tournament. Sometimes that is interpreted as a sign of weak internal competition.
I would personally not put Kühnhackl (or any other West German or German) on a top-200 list, unless it's about honoring those who dominated most in their domestic and national team environment.

I also keep thinking of that French guy... Bellemare... He sometimes looked very good during international tournaments. He might seem like an above average player on the ice even against the best teams, but would he even have made the team for CAN, SWE, RUS, USA, etc..?

The topic raised here also contributes to the difficulty in ranking the Soviets. They excelled in every environment; large rink, small rink, vs European style, vs NHL style, on home ice, on away ice, on CSKA/etc vs NHL teams... But... They also usually benefitted from playing with the same familiar teammates, on very good teams. Just like many NHLers, for example on MTL.


Markus Näslund (N)...
I would place Alfredsson clearly ahead of N. Alfredsson always contributed and was better defensively. N is a player that benefitted from playing in an optimal environment (Bertuzzi, Morrison, etc) during his NHL peak. He was however once being voted the NHL's best player, by the players, which complicates things a bit.
I have Mats Näslund ahead of N, and many other Swedes have as well.

Mats Näslund might be underrated among North Americans, who might use words like "retired at age 30" for a player that left the NHL around age 30 to play in Europe and later - at age 34 - won an Olympic Gold medal scoring 7 pts in 8 games. Mats Näslund also once was the leading scorer on a Stanley Cup winning MTL team, during regular season by a large margin and during playoffs by 19 pts to 16. He was a small but very smart player.

(By the way, scoring distribution within a team is another case where Gretzky and Mario really stood out. Not only did they play on high scoring teams. They actually scored a point on an extremely high percentage of their team's goals, in Gretzky's case sometimes more than 50 %. For duos, Kariya-Selänne was an extreme example.)
Cool contribution! I’ve been considering Markus Naslund but I ultimately struggling to find his place atm. He had a very good peak, but was underwhelming at either tale of his career.
 

buffalowing88

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I was going to say that he is already on the top 100 list but when I looked he wasn't but he is better than some guys on that list already IMO.

Bucyk and Datsyuk are locks off the top of my head and then Gilbert, Shanny and Hossa are on the next tier.

Mogilny and Martin have a couple of questions if they make it.
Well I’m glad to see I’m not totally off the mark haha. There’s a lot of grey area at this point.

I think I am gonna educate myself more on Mogilny tonight because I’m leaning towards advocating for him but Martin I’m gonna be more skeptical of.
 

wetcoast

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Well I’m glad to see I’m not totally off the mark haha. There’s a lot of grey area at this point.

I think I am gonna educate myself more on Mogilny tonight because I’m leaning towards advocating for him but Martin I’m gonna be more skeptical of.

Mogilny is in for tough sledding as he was inconsistent and Martin played in the weak 1970's and was in part a product of Gilbert Perrault (who didn't make the top 100 and most certainly will be in the next 100) and tailed off after his first 5 extremely impressive careers then had his career cut short by injury.

They both will probably be on the outside looking in when my list is finalized.

Interestingly enough when one enters his name to search on hockey reference Rick Middleton and Rick MacLeish come up with Martin in the top 3.

Shifty most likely makes my top 200, MacLeish probably not but he did lead the NHL playoffs in scoring 2 straight years but his regular season resume gets lost in the crowd.

Wingers are tough aside from the obvious guys as some of their value comes outside of scoring, take for example a guy like John Tonelli who I'm seriously looking at but not sure if he makes the cut.
 

wetcoast

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Didn't think I would see a Mick Vukota reference on here.

A natural hat trick is more important that Gino scoring 16 goals.

I'm surprised he didn't bring up a Jeff Cowan reference as I think he follows the Canucks.
 

buffalowing88

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Mogilny is in for tough sledding as he was inconsistent and Martin played in the weak 1970's and was in part a product of Gilbert Perrault (who didn't make the top 100 and most certainly will be in the next 100) and tailed off after his first 5 extremely impressive careers then had his career cut short by injury.

They both will probably be on the outside looking in when my list is finalized.

Interestingly enough when one enters his name to search on hockey reference Rick Middleton and Rick MacLeish come up with Martin in the top 3.

Shifty most likely makes my top 200, MacLeish probably not but he did lead the NHL playoffs in scoring 2 straight years but his regular season resume gets lost in the crowd.

Wingers are tough aside from the obvious guys as some of their value comes outside of scoring, take for example a guy like John Tonelli who I'm seriously looking at but not sure if he makes the cut.

I thought he was known as "Nifty" haha. Yeah, I didn't include Middleton on this list because he's a lock for me. I have been watching the old 1973ish-1977 or so games available and I focused on MacLeish if only because my dad and stepdad are big Sabres fans from that era and hated him. I assumed if they hated him it meant he was particularly good...and he was...in the playoffs as you stated. But I don't think I can find a place for him if I can't find one for Martin. Both are probably top 250 the more I think about it but I'm open to any arguments.

Never really considered Tonelli and now I'm wondering if I should. His overall impact on the ice is impressive...should be a good deep dive!
 

buffalowing88

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I'm getting to be a chatty Cathy on here, but a few more I wanted to throw out there that I'm considering on the edge who I could use some further commentary on or would love to just discuss:
-Hooley Smith- Seems like an early pest who has two pretty damn impressive seasons and had a nose for the net which stood out to me, for that era.
-Paul Stastny- I think there are some sound knocks on him, but if Hawerchuk is getting in, he needs consideration.
-Roy Conacher- Need to learn more about him, but his peers seemed to highly respect him.
-Mike Gartner- I personally want him nowhere near this list, but his aggregate totals are lurking. I just never found him to be transcendent in any measure besides speed and consistency...which I do suppose count.

I'll keep throwing out more in the coming days but these are just guys I'm looking into while also taking into consideration all the previous players mentioned in other posts. It's fun narrowing these down!
 

buffalowing88

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Honestly, we could use a "chatty Kathy" on Buffalo, Islanders, Kings, among others...don't be shy...

Well I appreciate that haha.

I didn't want to bring up LaFontaine, because he's my profile picture on here and I've been preaching his peak in this forum in the past. Since he's a former Isle and Sabre though, I guess I'll toss him out there.

I don't think I have him in my top 200 at this point, but he's neck and neck with Roenick for me at the bottom tier in my top 200 HMs.

Roenick deserves discussion but I watched a lot of LaFontaine and I'd say that he was the more talented player. His playoff record after leaving NYI just kills him, though. I was really getting into the Sabres around 92-93 and he was just never expected to be healthy. Hawerchuck and Mogilny carried the offense on those teams with Bodger helping out a lot on the PP. Obviously, we had Hasek at that point, but I don't think Hasek from 92-96 is the same as Hasek from 97-03. He was obviously great, but he wasn't the same player early on.

I could use some insight on the Kings more. I have a pretty low opinion on Robitaille as a game-changer but I also think he can't be discounted as a passenger. He's on my list but in the 180s. Other than him, for the Kings, I'm going to go hard for Doughty from here on out. He is in my 120s currently. He had two dominant postseasons and just tilts the ice in a way that reminds me of an older-era player. I don't think I'm going to budge on him.

I included Kopitar on my list but I'm low on him and have been admonished for this before. He's a very good player and his longevity is getting better and better, but I don't think that Kings team was his when they were at their peak. I think it was Doughty's team and Quick's team but I can be convinced otherwise. His TOI is impressive for all of those runs.

Someone tell me more about Tonelli and the other dynasty Islanders who should be on the list. Billy Smith made my initial rounds. I haven't found a place for him yet but I'm also learning from all of you a lot, too.
 

ted2019

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Mogilny is in for tough sledding as he was inconsistent and Martin played in the weak 1970's and was in part a product of Gilbert Perrault (who didn't make the top 100 and most certainly will be in the next 100) and tailed off after his first 5 extremely impressive careers then had his career cut short by injury.

They both will probably be on the outside looking in when my list is finalized.

Interestingly enough when one enters his name to search on hockey reference Rick Middleton and Rick MacLeish come up with Martin in the top 3.

Shifty most likely makes my top 200, MacLeish probably not but he did lead the NHL playoffs in scoring 2 straight years but his regular season resume gets lost in the crowd.

Wingers are tough aside from the obvious guys as some of their value comes outside of scoring, take for example a guy like John Tonelli who I'm seriously looking at but not sure if he makes the cut.

Looks like my list in a lot of ways. Also, don't discount Tonelli's Selke resume.
 
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