Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Dennis Bonvie]

I would say Defenseman.

Envisioned him as a center or rover.

So you're probably right.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Envisioned him as a center or rover.

So you're probably right.

I tend to agree with you, actually, as Baker was apparently an offense-only player.

Here's a long Iain Fyffe essay on Baker: Hockey Historysis: Putting Some Numbers on Hobey

The short version: Baker was a scorer-only who waited for his teammates to give him the puck let his teammates due the hard work of retrieving the puck. Iain projected his stats to the NHL, and concluded that he had 2 great offensive seasons, and a few other pretty good ones. Iain believes that while Baker was a good player, his early death is what cemented him in the HHOF.

 

[sr edler]

Baker was a rover and I don't think he waited for teammates to bring him the puck, like some centers of the era did occasionally, his skating was one of his strengths and he could rush the puck himself very well, and did so, so him loafing a lot or perpetually is probably not a correct description, unless you want to say Russell Bowie was also constantly loafing.

That said, he didn't play a lot against the strongest competition. He had two seasons in New York's against relatively mediocre competition, and then a bunch of seasons in the intercollegiate circuit with Princeton against perhaps even weaker competition.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Baker was a rover and I don't think he waited for teammates to bring him the puck, like some centers of the era did occasionally, his skating was one of his strengths and he could rush the puck himself very well, and did so, so him loafing a lot or perpetually is probably not a correct description, unless you want to say Russell Bowie was also constantly loafing.

That said, he didn't play a lot against the strongest competition. He had two seasons in New York's against relatively mediocre competition, and then a bunch of seasons in the intercollegiate circuit with Princeton against perhaps even weaker competition.

Yes, my previous summary wasn't entirely precise. The exact words: "Descriptions of his play make it clear that he did very little backchecking, instead waiting for his defencemen to recover the puck from the opponents and get the offence started so Baker could make another of his dandy rushes. "

Anyway, in a world where Frank McGee might not even make my list, Hobey Baker basically has zero shot at it. But others are obviously free to include whoever.

 

[wetcoast]

What position do we use for Hobey Baker?

I'm trying to figure out if you are being serious or not here?

Although I probably won't put him on my list a great player for a not so great national team Erich Kühnhackl deserves a look here.

 

[wetcoast]

Yes, my previous summary wasn't entirely precise. The exact words: "Descriptions of his play make it clear that he did very little backchecking, instead waiting for his defencemen to recover the puck from the opponents and get the offence started so Baker could make another of his dandy rushes. "

Anyway, in a world where Frank McGee might not even make my list, Hobey Baker basically has zero shot at it. But others are obviously free to include whoever.

Frank McGee was the first guy I thought of when Baker was mentioned.

At least there is some reference point for Frank, albeit not a very good one really.

 

[Michael Farkas]

In as few words as possible, what's the case for Hobey...?

 

[bobholly39]

Is there anyway someone like Vincent Damphousse could have a case towards ~200-220?

 

[Michael Farkas]

It might be helpful to build a ladder for a player like that...

Was he better than Owen Nolan? If so, proceed...
Was he better than Joe Nieuwendyk? If so, proceed...
Was he better than Nicklas Backstrom? If so, proceed...
Was he better than Jacques Lemaire? If so, proceed...
Was he better than Dale Hawerchuk? If so, he's certainly in the discussion...

Even if the previous two players, if he leap frogs them, he's probably in the discussion...if he only is getting passed Owen Nolan, than he's probably not, right?

 

[Professor What]

In as few words as possible, what's the case for Hobey...?

Not making the case for him, because I don't see it, but it would have to be historical profile. Actual performance would have to be "I think" he would have done such and such against the best of the best.

 

[ted2019]

Is there anyway someone like Vincent Damphousse could have a case towards ~200-220?

He's on my list, but I'm not sure if he makes it.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

In as few words as possible, what's the case for Hobey...?

Legendary American Player.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Frank McGee was the first guy I thought of when Baker was mentioned.

At least there is some reference point for Frank, albeit not a very good one really.

Both were inducted into the HHOF in the original class (1945)

 

[wetcoast]

Both were inducted into the HHOF in the original class (1945)

Legends that die young always seem to age better.

Like I said upthread I won't have Erich Kühnhackl on my list but IMO his legendary status in Germany is much easier to measure and equate than either McGee or Baker.

Erich Kühnhackl - Wikipedia

He is also easier to compare as he played against players most of us have seen.

I urge people to look at and consider all 3 of them with an open mind as they will with all players considered or brought up.

 

[ted2019]

I have a few more players:
Pierre Turgeon
Joe Nieuwendyk
Jeremy Roenick
Mike Modano
Nicklas Backstrom

 

[ted2019]

In as few words as possible, what's the case for Hobey...?

I don't think there is any. What about Art Ross?

 

[DN28]

Legends that die young always seem to age better.

Like I said upthread I won't have Erich Kühnhackl on my list but IMO his legendary status in Germany is much easier to measure and equate than either McGee or Baker.

Erich Kühnhackl - Wikipedia

He is also easier to compare as he played against players most of us have seen.

I urge people to look at and consider all 3 of them with an open mind as they will with all players considered or brought up.

Erich Kühnhackl is certainly an interesting player and I'd like to read a good case for him.

However, as of now I see no chance of Kuhnhackl making my list. His prime happened in 1976-1984. For the 79-84 timespan, we do have yearly Izvestia votings for top players in Europe. How did Kuhnhackl do?

Kuhnhackl finished 9th in 1984, otherwise there doesn't seem to be any other season where he received votes. Though I'd stress that there were no votings for 1976, 1977, 1978, and Kuhnhackl would have a reasonable chance to get some votes in 76 and 78 for sure.

Kuhnhackl won the scoring at WHC 1978, yet he didn't end up in 1st, neither 2nd All-Star team. He also finished 4th in 1983 WHC' scoring and again he did not appear on 1st or 2nd All-Star team.

Problem with Kuhnhackl is that from available evidence he did not separate himself too much from other German players. Kuhnhackl never received an international accolade, while teammates such as Udo Kiessling or Gerd Truntschka did (WHC 1987 if I remember correctly).

Kiessling also finished as 7th best player in 1987 Izvestia poll for the top Euro players.
Truntschka finished 5th in 1988.
From German players also Holger Meitinger ended up 14th in 1981.

Before I even seriously consider Kuhnhackl for the Top-220, I would need someone to explain why Kuhnhackl won so few 'German Player of the Year' awards? According to eliteprospects.com, he won it once in 1976. According to his Wikipedia profile, he won it three times (1978, 1980, 1983).

For now, I recommend to voters to focus attention on different players.

 

[bobholly39]

Since we're all re-ranking the top 100 players already ranked 2 years ago - is there any plan/appetite to do anything at all with those 100 names this time around? I know the focus is 101-200 of course - but curious if we'll do anything since we're taking the time to assemble the data and rank them again.

At the very least I figure we'd present an aggregate of where those 100 names would be ranked with this new group of voters/2 years later. But anything more?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Since we're all re-ranking the top 100 players already ranked 2 years ago - is there any plan/appetite to do anything at all with those 100 names this time around? I know the focus is 101-200 of course - but curious if we'll do anything since we're taking the time to assemble the data and rank them again.

At the very least I figure we'd present an aggregate of where those 100 names would be ranked with this new group of voters/2 years later. But anything more?

That data will be presented, yes. As you said, the focus for this project will be on the discussion rounds for players who went unranked in the previous project, but what can be studied from the full data set subsequent to the 20-week discussion period will be left up to those who find value in a more full aggregate list than has been previously produced.

 

[Professor What]

I'm all for giving the European players their due, and I think I've been pretty clear on that point. But, (and if I'm off on this, feel free to say so) with German players from back in the day, were their leagues strong enough for a player of the year award to really reflect a massive accomplishment?

 

[Michael Farkas]

It won't be too tough to tell...even if it's just from the video of international competitions that Germany is in...you'll find out real fast about Kuhnhackl and the quality of the German League(s) I suspect...I'd be happy to take the case and provide thoughts if someone wants to point me in the right direction (not that I can't search myself, but there's people here with far greater knowledge of what international competitions are worthwhile vs which ones are fool's gold)...

 

[ted2019]

What is the thought on Mike Grant? I have him in my top 200, but I want to hear others thoughts on him.

 

[ted2019]

It won't be too tough to tell...even if it's just from the video of international competitions that Germany is in...you'll find out real fast about Kuhnhackl and the quality of the German League(s) I suspect...I'd be happy to take the case and provide thoughts if someone wants to point me in the right direction (not that I can't search myself, but there's people here with far greater knowledge of what international competitions are worthwhile vs which ones are fool's gold)...

I don't have Kuhnhackl anywhere near my top 200.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What is the thought on Mike Grant? I have him in my top 200, but I want to hear others thoughts on him.

One of those rare "what about..." players who I think has a decent shot at my list. Seems to have as good a case as any for the best pre-1900 player ever; definitely the best defenseman of that time. From what little I know about his skillset, it is a fairly well-rounded one that probably translates decently well into any era. I've thought for awhile that maybe he should have snuck into spot #60 on the HOH defenseman list, rather than Harvey Pulford.

Actually, wasn't Art Ross mentioned? I've long thought that he was probably just as good as Lester Patrick, with the biggest difference that Patrick's PCHA had regular all-star teams to confirm Patrick's greatness, while Ross's NHA did not.

 

[ted2019]

One of those rare "what about..." players who I think has a decent shot at my list. Seems to have as good a case as any for the best pre-1900 player ever; definitely the best defenseman of that time. From what little I know about his skillset, it is a fairly well-rounded one that probably translates decently well into any era. I've thought for awhile that maybe he should have snuck into spot #60 on the HOH defenseman list, rather than Harvey Pulford.

Actually, wasn't Art Ross mentioned? I've long thought that he was probably just as good as Lester Patrick, with the biggest difference that Patrick's PCHA had regular all-star teams to confirm Patrick's greatness, while Ross's NHA did not.

I brought up Art Ross and just from reading the Bios done, he belongs in the discussion for the top 200. He seemed to be a fine 2 way defenseman who wasn't afraid to mix things up a bit. Just from judging by his numbers, Ross would've made at least 3 NHA All Star teams (1912,13,16) for sure.