Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

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buffalowing88

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Rank em':
Joe Primeau
Syd Howe
Jean Ratelle
Babe Dye
Frank Fredrickson
Frank Foyston
Frank Finnigan
Reg Noble
Bert Olmstead
Punch Broadbent
Woody Dumart
Bernie Morris

I’ll get an actual ranking later but first impression is that I don’t have either of Foyston and Finnegan on my list as well as Bernie Morris. May just be an oversight from me.

of that list, I marked Howe, Ratelle, Olmstead, Dye, and Primeau as locks. The more I read about Frederickson, the closer he seemed to that lock tier as well.

You have a lotta Frank F’s on that list haha
 

Professor What

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@plusandminus I think the same way about Kasatonov. I've been extremely impressed by him in games I've watched on YouTube. I'd dare say I think he's the most underrated Soviet player. The more thought I give him, the more I think he's going to move up on my preliminary defenseman list.

@ted2019 Connell is a slam dunk on my list, and I suspect that he'll be near the border of the first and second hundred. Of the other two, I find Lesueur more intriguing right now, though Holmes could probably be talked up to me.
 

Professor What

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I need to correct something I said I'm that last post. I read Connell and thought Benedict. I got Ottawa in my head but got the wrong guy.

Anyway, I like Connell, but not that much.
 
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ted2019

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Rank em':
Joe Primeau
Syd Howe
Jean Ratelle
Babe Dye
Frank Fredrickson
Frank Foyston
Frank Finnigan
Reg Noble
Bert Olmstead
Punch Broadbent
Woody Dumart
Bernie Morris

1. Fredrickson
2. Ratelle
3. Dye
4. Primeau
5. Dumart
6. Morris
7. Howe
8. Foyston
9. Olmstead
10. Noble
11. Finnigan
12. Broadbent
 
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buffalowing88

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1. Fredrickson
2. Ratelle
3. Dye
4. Primeau
5. Dumart
6. Morris
7. Howe
8. Foyston
9. Noble
10. Finnigan
11. Olmstead
12. Broadbent

You're awfully low on Olmstead. Just wondering why? He seemed like a lock to me. His playoff record was fine and he has several top-6 Hart finishes. I can see an argument to exclude him, but I don't think I'm taking Finnigan or Foyston over him personally.

Foyston has that 1917 year which looks terrific, but not a lot to separate him otherwise from a very wide berth of players that we don't have much to judge upon.
 

buffalowing88

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Okay, here's where I stand, and again, I'm possibly off because this is not the era I specialize in, I've just been committing more time to it in the past several weeks.

1. Ratelle
2. Primeau
3. Dye
4. Frerickson
5. Howe
6. Olmstead
7. Noble
8. Dumart
9. Foyston
10. Morris
11. Finnigan
12. Broadbent

My cut-off is around number 8 for my list. I think I can be persuaded on Foyston, I just need to hear more. I'm not sold on Dumart and Noble.
 

ted2019

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You're awfully low on Olmstead. Just wondering why? He seemed like a lock to me. His playoff record was fine and he has several top-6 Hart finishes. I can see an argument to exclude him, but I don't think I'm taking Finnigan or Foyston over him personally.

Foyston has that 1917 year which looks terrific, but not a lot to separate him otherwise from a very wide berth of players that we don't have much to judge upon.

I meant to have Olmstead at #9 and that drops Noble & Finnigan down a spot each. I like Olmstead, but I like Foyston a bit more.
 
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buffalowing88

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I meant to have Olmstead at #9 and that drops Noble & Finnigan down a spot each. I like Olmstead, but I like Foyston a bit more.
Weird because after I posted I again returned to Foyston and I think I'm bumping him up to number 7 now haha. Dude befuddles me and I can't think of a modern-day comp but he's definitely on my top 200 now.
 

buffalowing88

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I can live in a world where we toss Broadbent and Finnigan off. I can hear arguments though. We just definitely need to start saying players that we can rule off. Put me there with Gartner, too.
 

buffalowing88

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I work nights these days so excuse the constant late postings, but speaking of players I'm leaning towards leaving off who I considered, here are a few more contemporary ones:
-Modano- He's getting in here if I like it or not, I'm sure of it. But I just watched him play so much and he was a very GOOD player, but I don't remember him taking over a game at any point in time.
-Zetterberg- This is a really tough one, but I personally just think he hovers around 220 and every time I try to slot him up, I find someone more deserving.
-Stamkos- He has a huge peak, but I can't overcome his inability, through injury or availability, to come through.
-Ramsay- Hate going against my own team but he had linemates who formed the best shut-down line in the league for several years. It wasn't just him. I can't put him on my list because he transcended them, but not by much, objectively.
 

DN28

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I'm interested in the gut feelings of those that worked on the non-NHL Euro project, as well as anyone else knowledgeable on the subject as to roughly where you think the consideration cutoff for those players might fall. For convenience, I've quoted the table here.

19 players from that list are a must-haves for every voter IMO. Fetisov, Makarov, Kharlamov, Firsov, Tretiak, Mikhailov, Maltsev, Martinec, Holeček, Vasiliev, Nedomanský, Suchý, Petrov, Pospíšil, Krutov, Kasatonov, Yakushev, Larionov, Starshinov.

I think there are 4-5 players sitting on the edge that would potentially be interesting to talk about more in detail. Nový, Balderis, Jiří Holík, Sologubov.

If you're the kind of guy who likes goalies, thinks it's the most important position, and aims for more than 40 netminders in the list, you can place Vladimír Dzurilla on the list too.
 

DitchMarner

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Who's including Jean Ratelle? He has a rather weird career arc. He wasn't anything early on (although maybe a lack of ice time/opportunity held him back) but then put together some big seasons with the Rangers and won the Pearson one year. He was fairly disappointing in the playoffs until being traded to BOS, where he had some solid years to finish off his career.

He seems kind of like a centre version of MSL, I suppose, although Marty never had a reputation for being a playoff choker.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Who's including Jean Ratelle? He has a rather weird career arc. He wasn't anything early on (although maybe a lack of ice time/opportunity held him back) but then put together some big seasons with the Rangers and won the Pearson one year. He was fairly disappointing in the playoffs until being traded to BOS, where he had some solid years to finish off his career.

He seems kind of like a centre version of MSL, I suppose, although Marty never had a reputation for being a playoff choker.

Correct, Ratelle wasn't really a factor until expansion. As a Bruins fan, I loved him as a player. But I would have his Rangers linemate Rod Gilbert on the list before him.
 
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wetcoast

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Looks like my list in a lot of ways. Also, don't discount Tonelli's Selke resume.


I think the case for Tonelli along with his Selke resume is that he lead the Dynasty NYI is ESP with 60

NHL Stats

He also had a great peak season in 84-85 and in the same time frame a great Canada Cup.

The case against would be that his VsX isn't great and outside of his prime (and even a couple of seasons in it) he wasn't what one would call a real offensive force.

He is a favorite of mine but not sure if he makes the cut, like I said earlier alot of very good players will still be outside the top 200.
 
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wetcoast

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Tom Barrasso is one goalie I'm on the fence about. 5x Vezina finalist, but is he a product of those Penguin teams? In HO's great adjusted save % thread Adjusted-Save-Percentage-Regular-Season-1956-2020, Barrasso doesn't look that bad.

In HO's Goalies-Adjusted-Playoff-Save-Percentage-1984-2020, Barrasso is once again hit or miss, including this statement: "Keep in mind that career save percentage is, by definition, a career average. Tom Barrasso had a few rough playoffs at the start and end of his career, and that dragged down his average. His career average of 90.8% is barely above average; if one focuses on his prime from 1988 to 1996, Barrasso's save percentage rises to a very strong 91.6%."

In this HO's thread Career Adjusted-Save-Percentage Barrasso is among the elite in regards to best peak.


I have to admit that goalies are very hard for me to rank and I will be relying very heavily on the top goalie list in this section.

HOH Top 40 Goaltenders of All Time

A great goalie is simply harder to determine than a great position player and a goalie often lives or dies with the team situation.

That being said I'd like to have at least 30ish goalies on my list so Barrasso will be on and Thomas probably not.
 

wetcoast

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Not on my list.


While I understand this "feeling" on Kovolchuck he is not Mike Gartner type of compiler.

He was top 10 in goals 8 times over a 10 year period (also 5 top 10 point finishes) and led the NHL in goals and 4th in points over a 12 year period.

NHL Stats

He also had some good post NHL years in Russia before he came back and for thsoe that will cite the KHL competition I'll refer back to hos he did in the NHL.

All that being said he does have an uphill battle with the "feeling" test.
 

wetcoast

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1. Fredrickson
2. Ratelle
3. Dye
4. Primeau
5. Dumart
6. Morris
7. Howe
8. Foyston
9. Olmstead
10. Noble
11. Finnigan
12. Broadbent

Couldn't wait eh?

That being said I'm not entirely sold on Ratelle and where to place him.

He was fumbling around quite bit until expansion hit and his playoff resume was horrible until he finally hit his stride on a great deep Boston team in the 70s.

I know Ratelle was 45th on the centers list but there are strong arguments that might have been too high IMO.
 
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wetcoast

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I work nights these days so excuse the constant late postings, but speaking of players I'm leaning towards leaving off who I considered, here are a few more contemporary ones:

My work schedule and life is also very hetic so I post when I can and think the conversation from as many people as possible is important.

-Modano- He's getting in here if I like it or not, I'm sure of it. But I just watched him play so much and he was a very GOOD player, but I don't remember him taking over a game at any point in time.

Modano in the late 90s was a driving force for those Dallas teams as a 2 way #1 center but might get lost in the shuffle sometimes with guys like Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman and Fedorov in the same conference.

That being said I have him above Ratelle (and the next 2 guys as well)


-Zetterberg- This is a really tough one, but I personally just think he hovers around 220 and every time I try to slot him up, I find someone more deserving.

Zetterberg is a must as a 2 way player and a playoff force for Detroit. Injuries and VsX hurt him a bit but he should be in the top 200 IMO.

-Stamkos- He has a huge peak, but I can't overcome his inability, through injury or availability, to come through.

Even with his injuries his prime and goal scoring ability and accomplishments might be too hard to keep him off the list.

-Ramsay- Hate going against my own team but he had linemates who formed the best shut-down line in the league for several years. It wasn't just him. I can't put him on my list because he transcended them, but not by much, objectively.

I have Tonelli over him and he might not make my list but I also wonder if people have Gainey on their lists (or others guys like him) that have similar arguments of line and team mates.
 

wetcoast

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Correct, Ratelle wasn't really a factor until expansion. As a Bruins fan, I loved him as a player. But I would have his Rangers linemate Rod Gilbert on the list before him.


That's very interesting as Gilbert was 52nd in the wingers list and Ratelle was higher on the centers list (45th) with arguably more competition.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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While I understand this "feeling" on Kovolchuck he is not Mike Gartner type of compiler.

He was top 10 in goals 8 times over a 10 year period (also 5 top 10 point finishes) and led the NHL in goals and 4th in points over a 12 year period.

NHL Stats

He also had some good post NHL years in Russia before he came back and for thsoe that will cite the KHL competition I'll refer back to hos he did in the NHL.

All that being said he does have an uphill battle with the "feeling" test.

More than a feeling.....

Great offensive player who rarely gave full effort on defense. More about him than the team. Sulker. Quit and took his puck to Russia, then comes backs with a different team.
 
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DN28

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In a couple of posts, I'm going to briefly describe a case for some of those Eastern Bloc players I mentioned above as a sure thing for the Top-200. I'll also add some links for those who struggle to put these players into perspective or to find relevant information about them.

Sergei Makarov. Truly special player who dominated the ice offensively no matter who the opponent was. Makarov would feast on a low-level teams like Germany or Italy, high-level teams like Czechoslovakia or Sweden and then even the best Canadian or NHL teams all equally, as if there was no difference. Makarov is fascinating to many of us, hockey history enthusiasts, because he's the player of no apparent weaknesses. Excellent scoring in the League? Check. Excellent scoring on World Championships? Check. On Canada Cups? Versus NHL Teams? Check. Visually appealing, highlight-reel type of player? Check. Voted as the best Soviet / European player several times by writers, coaches? Check. No other non-NHL Euro forward from previous generations actually comes close to Makarov in achievements, incl. Kharlamov, Firsov and many more. In the era of Gretzky shattering historical records, Makarov was compared to him, sometimes even favorably by Czech coaches. A top-20 player.

Viacheslav Fetisov. Balanced, two-way defenseman and a leading figure of the Green unit and great Soviet teams of the 80s. Pretty much all the attributes of Makarov applies to Fetisov as well. Only thing that separates him from Makarov is Fetisov's slump from around 1979-81, where he was not much of a factor. Interested in season-by-season breakdown and comparison of these two? Click here. A top-30 player.

Vladislav Tretiak. Legendary goaltender with important and rare G qualities - consistency, reliability. Tretiak was voted 50th in 18/19, which is respectable place but a bit on the lower side of the spectrum. Much has been made of Tretiak not being the Europe's (let alone the World's) best goalie through the 70s, but I made a clear case that Tretiak's peak seasons happened in 1981-1984 and until proven otherwise, I stand behind it. It's not difficult to imagine Tretiak walking off with 4 straight NHL All-Stars / Vezinas in 81-84, especially looking at the names of those who were at the time the cream of the NHL goaltending crop. Even with Tretiak's arguably inflated SPOTY record (discussed here or here) I see him no lesser than 7th best all-time goalie and a top-40 player.

Valeri Kharlamov. Supremely technically skilled forward and considered the best 1970s Soviet skater by many. Kharlamov excelled on international level against any opponent (CSSR, Canada, NHL..). Rightfully known as a big-game player a coach can always count on. Kharlamov's weakness is primarily his league scoring numbers. A top-50 player.

Alexander Maltsev. Forward similarly gifted as Kharlamov in both technical skills and hockey IQ. Maltsev didn't make the cut for the top 100 in 18/19 project and I'm increasingly convinced that it was a mistake. It's true that Maltsev did not score as much against tough opponents, but his international and domestic, scoring and award-voting achievements are up there with Kharlamov. Maltsev is maybe a kind of Soviet Dionne or Soviet Thornton and too many voters dislike these players for play-off shortcomings... Still, some factors made it legitimately more difficult for Maltsev to create a better legacy for himself. From 1969 to 1983, whenever Maltsev got to play the 1st line or got to play with some of his Dynamo linemates in the National team, he ended up being the tournament's All-Star. A top 60-90 player.

Vladimír Martinec. The most reasonable choice for the best non-NHL Czech player, as Martinec won the most Golden Stick trophies as anybody except Jágr and Hašek. At the time of previous project, I didn't bat too much for the guy. I was only glad that he even appeared in the last discussion vote. But now as time passed and as I got to know NHL players more, I'm not shy of ranking Martinec high in the list. Martinec was firmly in a 'best-player-in-Europe' discussion for a good number of years + played greatly vs. high-end opponents (sometimes a target for Soviet goons) + at the same time was a very good two-way player bringing a lot more to the table. Similarly to Kharlamov, Martinec's weakness is his good but not great domestic scoring. A top 70-90 player.

Anatoli Firsov. Discussion about Firsov was one of the highlights of the 18-19 project. I don't rank Firsov as highly as the Panel did a year or two ago but for different reasons than then- Firsov sceptics... I see no problem with the level of competition of that 1963-1972 transition period; while the level hadn't yet reached that of NHL, Soviets won almost everything they could and Firsov was their best player. Besides, a lack of decent 1960s competition for USSR has been overstated; "amateur" Canadian National teams defeated NHL squads on numerous occasions. My thing with Firsov is a) not outstanding longevity as an elite player; b) a seemingly prevalent idea that Firsov was this magical 'head-and-shoulders-above-everyone-else' player in the late 1960s/early 1970s. That is not correct according to my findings. Jan Suchý was at least equal to him and young Maltsev was rated right next to Firsov in early 70s as well.. Ultimately, I think it's OK to have Firsov in the top-100 and Suchý outside due to latter one's alcoholism and, say, 'authority issues', but the gap between them shouldn't be more than 40 places IMO. Want to see season-by-season breakdown of Firsov's career? Click here. A top 80-90 player.
 
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wetcoast

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More than a feeling.....

Great offensive player who rarely gave full effort on defense. More about him than the team. Sulker. Quit and took his puck to Russia, then comes backs with a different team.

That's not entirely true as the NHL had a lockout then he didn't return which saved the devils quite a bit of money BTW.

But sure I see why people will be divided on him (much like Lindros) and his return to the NHL with the Kings sure didn't help his legacy.
 
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Theokritos

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In a couple of posts, I'm going to briefly describe a case for some of those Eastern Bloc players I mentioned above as a sure thing for the Top-200. I'll also add some links for those who struggle to put these players into perspective or to find relevant information about them.

Wait, are you guys actually redoing the top 100? Because Makarov, Fetisov, Tretyak, Kharlamov and Firsov were all voted top 100 two years ago.
 
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