Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

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VMBM

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Sep 24, 2008
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I hope that Gilbert Perreault will be on everyone's list... and high :)

Good playoff numbers, one of the best Canadian international performers and one of the most amazing offensive talents ever (skating, speed, stickhandling, and that very important and imo often underrated skill, namely 1-on-1 skills), and most importantly (I just learned that) he has his 'own' amphitheatre!!
 
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ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
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I hope that Gilbert Perreault will be on everyone's list... and high :)

Good playoff numbers, one of the best Canadian international performers and one of the most amazing offensive talents ever (skating, speed, stickhandling, and that very important and imo often underrated skill, namely 1-on-1 skills), and most importantly (I just learned that) he has his 'own' amphitheatre!!

Around 110.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
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I hope that Gilbert Perreault will be on everyone's list... and high :)

Good playoff numbers, one of the best Canadian international performers and one of the most amazing offensive talents ever (skating, speed, stickhandling, and that very important and imo often underrated skill, namely 1-on-1 skills), and most importantly (I just learned that) he has his 'own' amphitheatre!!

I think he’ll do well. Along with Datsyuk and Quackenbush, Perreault was among the three highest players on the aggregate list who didn’t qualify for the final discussion round in the previous project.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
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I think he’ll do well. Along with Datsyuk and Quackenbush, Perreault was among the three highest players on the aggregate list who didn’t qualify for the final discussion round in the previous project.

I have Quackenbush @ 125 and I think that I have him a bit low. I have Serge Savard ahead of him, but I'm thinking that the gap needs to be closed. I'm also starting to wonder if Quackenbush should be ahead of Savard, instead of behind him.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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I have Quackenbush @ 125 and I think that I have him a bit low. I have Serge Savard ahead of him, but I'm thinking that the gap needs to be closed. I'm also starting to wonder if Quackenbush should be ahead of Savard, instead of behind him.

Good question.

I have him ahead of Denis Savard, but not Serge.
 

Professor What

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I'm curious on others' takes on a guy like Harry Howell. Solid play for a very long time, one year where he really stood out, and he played on some pretty bad teams in New York.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
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I'm curious on others' takes on a guy like Harry Howell. Solid play for a very long time, one year where he really stood out, and he played on some pretty bad teams in New York.

From Billyshoe Bio:
1,411 career NHL games(most by a defenseman at time of retirement)
1x 1st-Team NHL All Star
7x NHL All Star Game Participant(all merit based)
5th Hart Trophy Voting(66-67)
6x Top 10 Norris Trophy voting(1, 5, 6, 6, 9, 9)
2x Top 11 All Star Selection(6, 11)
12x Top 15 Goals Among Defensemen(4, 4, 6, 6, 7, 7, 9, 9, 11, 13, 13, 13)
9x Top 15 Assists Among Defensemen(3, 3, 4, 8, 9, 10, 11, 11, 14)
9x Top 15 Points Among Defensemen(3, 3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 12, 13, 14)
Hockey Hall of Fame Member
Captain New York Rangers, 1955-1957
Number retired by Rangers

Henry Vernon Howell, known by everybody as Harry, had played more games than any defenseman in major-league hockey history by the time he retired, though he never won the Stanley Cup. Howell played in a total of 1,581 contests, 1,411 in the NHL and 170 in the World Hockey Association. Born in Hamilton, Ontario, in 1932, Howell was known as a dedicated, dependable player on the ice and a classy guy off it.

Howell started playing junior hockey for the Guelph Biltmores and his professional career began in 1952 with the New York Rangers. He quickly gained a reputation as a durable, dependable "iron man" and, amazingly, missed only 17 games in his first 16 seasons as a Ranger. Howell's best season was in 1966-67 when he won the Norris Trophy as the NHL's top defenseman.

Here is an interesting trivia question. Who was the last player in to win the Norris Trophy as best defenseman before the arrival and subsequent dominance of the trophy by Bobby Orr?

The answer: Harry Howell.

It could be said that Howell was the last defensive defenseman to win the trophy, as the award took on a different definition after Bobby Orr.

Harry Howell played 24 NHL seasons and three more in the WHA. When he retired no defenseman had played more big league games than the ironman Howell.

Ironman would be an appropriate nickname for the man who never played for a Stanley Cup winner. In his first 16 NHL seasons he missed an amazingly minuscule total of just 17 games.

Although not an overly aggressive rearguard he used his hockey sense to become an extremely effective defensive player. He was quite the unsung hero, buried with the largely unsuccessful Rangers. It was rare that he was rightfully recognized as one of hockey's top players. In fact it was not until 1966-67, his 15th year in the league, that he was honored with the Norris trophy as the league's best defenseman and with all star status.

Although not regarded as an offensive threat by today's standards, Howell was a slick passer who always made the safe play. He was a reliable work horse who could always be counted on to bring his steady game every night of the week. A master of the poke check, his understated brilliance was certainly appreciated by his coaches and teammates, especially his goaltenders. He always was able to steer oncoming attackers to the boards and away from scoring spots.

Howell was all too happy to play in the shadows of more popular defense partners. His most notable co-workers were the xxx, a Manhattan fan favorite, and Doug Harvey, to that time the greatest defenseman of all.

and They don't come much better than Harry," Harvey said soon after joining the Rangers.

"The thing that makes him the great hockey player he is," Emile Francis once said "is that the quality of his game seldom varies. Some defensemen, they look like all-stars one night, or maybe for three games in a row, and then they tail off. But Harry, he's like the Rock of Gibraltar."

Francis added "Hockey is a game of mistakes, and Harry doesn't make many of them

No one in Rangers history has worn the Blueshirt as many times as Harry Howell. Not many have worn it as well, either. For 17 seasons and 1,160 games, Howell was Mr. Reliable on the Rangers' blueline.

Howell continued to provide the Rangers with solid play on the blueline, nothing flashy, but consistent and productive.

Howell kept himself in excellent shape. Rookie Tony Featherstone remembered that the 38-year-old Howell "had a physique that was just amazing. He was the fittest guy I ever met. He was a solid guy, a tough guy."

"He was a great veteran. I always wondered what was so great about him, but you had to play with him to see what a great skater he was. He had class. We all looked up to him. He was a smooth skater and a great guy on and off the ice.

"They don't come any better than him. He could cover the ice and cut the time in half." That was Harry Howell: classy, consistent, and a leader.

Unlike most players, Howell seemed to get better with age.


Harry Howell, one of the most underrated defensemen in the NHL...

Gadsby is a good offensive defenseman, Muzz said. "But the key man on our defense is Harry Howell. He's the solid guy.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I'm curious on others' takes on a guy like Harry Howell. Solid play for a very long time, one year where he really stood out, and he played on some pretty bad teams in New York.

From the HOH Top defensemen project, the next 3 dmen in voting after the official top 60 were Fern Flaman/Harry Howell/Bill White - all close to each other, I forget the exact order but it doesn't really matter. Those 3 all with similar Norris records and not-all-that different skillsets. Consider guys like Doughty, Keith, Karlsson, Weber, etc who have added a ton to their resumes since that list was made, and Howell is what, maybe the 65th-69th best dman of all-time, give or take?

He's a legit candidate for our list, but definitely near the bottom. And I wouldn't be upset if he misses it.
 

wetcoast

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Tremblay was 34 when he jumped to the WHA. He was still the best defenseman in the league.

Doesn't hurt his case.


Sure but looking at the Dmen on WHA all star teams in a very diluted 70s, it's hard to get a grip on how much value they add to his career.

Throw in the diluted NHL and European Dmen stuck behind the iron curtain it's hard to rank the guys in any reasonable order during the 7 years the WHA played.
 

wetcoast

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In part, because Boston didn't realize what they had...in 1965 (surely one of the greatest years of minor league hockey ever, one could reasonably claim) Stapleton just about led the entire WHL in scoring...


I don't think there is too much difference between the guys but Tremblay does have the much better resume on the surface.

I guess it might come down to how much his team situation, both in the NHL and WHA, helps it look that much better.
 

edinson

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May 11, 2012
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I'm interested to hear thoughts on the strength of the defense position in the 30's. We have three guys in Clapper, Siebert and Goodfellow who switched position and pretty much directly start dominating the D field (except Shore) in AST voting for a few years. What does it say about those guys? As in, did they really peak at D or was the competition just much weaker than at the forward positions? And what does it say about guys like Art Coulter and even Earl Seibert (I know he's already in) who was regularly beaten by these "new" guys?

I have Siebert and Goodfellow in the 100-150 range right now and Coulter as a maybe for the list but this may change depending on the answers for these questions...
 

wetcoast

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From the HOH Top defensemen project, the next 3 dmen in voting after the official top 60 were Fern Flaman/Harry Howell/Bill White - all close to each other, I forget the exact order but it doesn't really matter. Those 3 all with similar Norris records and not-all-that different skillsets. Consider guys like Doughty, Keith, Karlsson, Weber, etc who have added a ton to their resumes since that list was made, and Howell is what, maybe the 65th-69th best dman of all-time, give or take?

He's a legit candidate for our list, but definitely near the bottom. And I wouldn't be upset if he misses it.


I would add that current guys like Burns (with Norris voting a twice being the best Dman at the WHC) and Ryan Suter (Norris finishes) should also be looked at if we are looking at the bottom end of the top 60 Dman list.

Burns especially as his resume is probably more impressive and longer than a guy like Suchy (and even František Pospíšil) who finished much higher in that project and with guys like Stapleton and JC Tremblay being recently discussed..
 

DN28

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Jan 2, 2014
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Milan Nový is another borderline top 200 player.

This Czech center also peaked in 1977, was too offense-oriented and his biggest selling point is his domestic league scoring.. all just like Balderis.

Tough to come up with a top-200 case for such player, however consider this. Nový's significant league scoring finishes were (depending on your source but they don't differ that much anyway..) following:

1st (1976), 1st (1977), 1st (1978), 1st (1980), 1st (1981), 1st (1982), 2nd (1975), 3rd (1973), 3rd (1979), 4th (1974), 10th (1988)... + highly productive both of those two and only 1970s CSSR league playoffs: 2nd (1973), 3rd (1971)

That's 5 or 6 scoring titles (sources differ only on who won in 1980; official game records have Nový as the winner) and top 10 overall scoring finishes largely placed in the era when Czechoslovak hockey reached its heights.

No one before or after came close to this kind of resumé. To put this into perspective, Martinec won league scoring 1x, Hlinka 1x, Nedomanský 3x. Old Czech hockey legend Vladimír Zábrodský had done it 6x like Nový, but in the 1940s-1950s and when assists hadn't been recorded..

Milan Nový won his first domestic championship already in 1974 with Dukla Jihlava. In 1975, 76, 77, 78 and in 1980 Nový earned 5 league titles with SONP Kladno, including one European Championship, I believe, in 1978 through close win over Spartak Moscow. Nový was hands down best scorer on the Kladno team and this whole dynasty was largely carried on shoulders of his and Pospíšil.

Nový famously scored the GWG in that Czechoslovakia-Canada round robin game, '76 Canada Cup - game that ended 1:0 in favor of CSSR. Nový was the leading scorer in his team and was voted All-Star C by the end of the tournament.

In the league, Nový in 1977 was completely out of control. He posted 89 or 93 points in 44 games (again depending on your source..), which was absurd. No one before had even reached 80 points, let alone 93 and 2.0+ ppg.

Together with Martinec, Nový led the CSSR in scoring at the WHC '77 with 16 points in 10 games. Czechoslovakia won the gold medal. Although Vladimir Petrov was voted All-Star C then instead... Nový won his first Golden Stick for the best Czechoslovak player after this season.

Nový had a couple of other high-end performances on international stage, he won 2nd and 3rd Golden Stick in 1981 and 1982. Nonetheless, there are some holes in his career which pulls his all-time value down.

Nový's name didn't establish as high as other stars' of that era. Nový was flirting with domestic reg. season scoring title in 1973, yet he was an afterthought for the WHC 1973. He was Dukla's best scorer that year, yet two forwards from his team were considered better than him. Only in 1974, Nový finally became more-or-less a constant member of National team but I believe he got injured at the end of league season and missed the following WHC.

But what is the most damning, Nový lost his regular spot in the CSSR's lineup in the middle of his prime. After Nový won the league scoring for 3rd time in a row, Nový found himself as a mere luxurious reserve player. He did play 9 (4+0) games at '78 WHC but with very limited ice-time. Same thing happened at '79 WHC, if I remember correctly, where he played just 5 games (0+2).

So where was the problem? There was no issue whatsoever with Nový's attitude. CSSR coaches were simply betting on club-chemistry. Tesla Pardubice line (xxx-Novak-Martinec) was set, Slovan Bratislava line (Šťastný brothers) was set, and Ivan Hlinka as the captain and natural leader in his prime was set to lead his line with whomever. Other than this, coach Karel Gut in the post-WHC 1978 interview said that he himself expected and intended to play Nový as a wing but found out that Nový is simply unable to employ his shooting qualities in any other position than center properly... That was it.

To summarize, Nový's skillset was restricted. He had amazing instinct to pick up the right spot in the offensive zone. He possessed an incredible shooting accuracy so when he skated alone at goalie, or when he got a pass near the goal and unattended, he rarely missed. He wasn't the fastest skater but had a good acceleration.

Nový was not a floater but he was unable to contribute defensively to a meaningful degree, he wasn't really a prime puck carrier, he couldn't generate offense on his own in a tougher competition. For a center, he was a lot dependant on others giving him a precise pass. Nový's chemistry with Pospíšil from Kladno dynasty was built on these breakaways, when Pospíšil typically gained the puck and send it vertically through several players quickly up to Nový waiting somewhere around the red line. One of those often spoken about plays then and still now retrospectively in books.

An apt comparison of Nový to Brett Hull was made by a different poster than me in the past. Nový's domestic stats and awards are great, his international stats and awards aren't bad either. But his overall career value is a bit below a good portion of other non-NHL Euros already discussed. A top 200-250 player.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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I don't think so. They're both clearly behind a guy like Rod Gilbert, right? And Gilbert is a maybe for me.

I don't have them on my list.

I just keep thinking of players that were very good but I can't fit in. I thought this would be easier than the top 100 but it really isn't, for me anyway.
 

wetcoast

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Does anyone have Dain Bain/Duke Keats/Joe Hall anywhere?


I think Bain probably has the highest peak of the 3 but the level of competition and the length of his career probably keep him out.

With Keats and Hall both playing in a time were top talent was spread out over different leagues it's hard to get a grip on where they rank in 3 year peaks or 7 years primes against the compititon and their highest probable ranking among contemporary players.

At the end of the day there are probably better and more defensible options.
 

wetcoast

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I don't have them on my list.

I just keep thinking of players that were very good but I can't fit in. I thought this would be easier than the top 100 but it really isn't, for me anyway.


This is definitely harder than the top 100 list for sure.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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I'm interested to hear thoughts on the strength of the defense position in the 30's. We have three guys in Clapper, Siebert and Goodfellow who switched position and pretty much directly start dominating the D field (except Shore) in AST voting for a few years. What does it say about those guys? As in, did they really peak at D or was the competition just much weaker than at the forward positions? And what does it say about guys like Art Coulter and even Earl Seibert (I know he's already in) who was regularly beaten by these "new" guys?

I have Siebert and Goodfellow in the 100-150 range right now and Coulter as a maybe for the list but this may change depending on the answers for these questions...

Its odd because it was such a low scoring era. One would think defenseman would be a position of strength rather than forward. And many of the top goalies are maligned because their low goals against are due to era rather than great ability (Hainsworth, Chabot, Kerr).
 

Professor What

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@ted2019 mentioning Bain brings me back to something that I've mentioned once but still can't shake and was thinking about this morning. I brought up Frank McGee and Tommy Phillip's once after some of my study suggested that they were generally considered the top two players in the game at one point. @TheDevilMadeMe mentioned Hod Stuart and Russell Bowie in that discussion after I did, and further comparisons between the four have led me to these conclusions: 1)I think that for peak play, I like McGee the best, based largely on his performance in challenges, but his longevity clearly falls short. That can be said about Phillip's as well, but to a lesser degree.
2) Bowie and Stuart win the competition as being "greater," because they were also high level and had excellent longevity for their tone. Stuart basically played until he died.
3) For players like McGee or Bain to have any shot, there will have to be some allowance for the fact that they were professionals in other areas and amateurs in hockey, and a long career could have been a huge risk for them. I think that deserves some consideration, but how much? Is it enough to give guys like Bain and McGee a shot at the bottom of the list, or does it take extreme longevity (for the era) like that of Stuart and Bowie to make it?
 

wetcoast

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@ted2019 mentioning Bain brings me back to something that I've mentioned once but still can't shake and was thinking about this morning. I brought up Frank McGee and Tommy Phillip's once after some of my study suggested that they were generally considered the top two players in the game at one point. @TheDevilMadeMe mentioned Hod Stuart and Russell Bowie in that discussion after I did, and further comparisons between the four have led me to these conclusions: 1)I think that for peak play, I like McGee the best, based largely on his performance in challenges, but his longevity clearly falls short. That can be said about Phillip's as well, but to a lesser degree.
2) Bowie and Stuart win the competition as being "greater," because they were also high level and had excellent longevity for their tone. Stuart basically played until he died.
3) For players like McGee or Bain to have any shot, there will have to be some allowance for the fact that they were professionals in other areas and amateurs in hockey, and a long career could have been a huge risk for them. I think that deserves some consideration, but how much? Is it enough to give guys like Bain and McGee a shot at the bottom of the list, or does it take extreme longevity (for the era) like that of Stuart and Bowie to make it?


For what it's worth Frank McGee was 137 in the aggregate top 100 list due in part to being ranked 71st on one list (Hod Stuart was 57th on that list as well).

Dan Bain was 173rd on that aggregate list based on a 96th place vote by the same poster.

Note I'm not taking any issue with that posters list it's just that a single high rating can lead to these results and I'm just listing it for a reference point.

In the top 60 centers project done 8 years ago Bain didn't show up for voting (76 centers did) and McGee was in the top 76 but the aggregate results aren't available.

For reference 4 centers who made the top 60 list near the end didn't show up on the aggregate top 100 list

Frank Fredrickson 53
Darrly Sittler 56
Duke Keats 58
Neil Colville 60

Also 4 current centers who are on the aggregate list weren't deep enough in their careers in the top 60 centers project to make that list

Jonathan Toews 140
Connor McDavid 154
Anze Kopitar 162
Patrice Bergeron 164

I guess part of the problem is that in the 100-220 range there is a ton of divergence in views even among people who look at things very closely which members of the HOH section do.

I'll further add that there were 33 centers on the top 100 list and a further 35 centers on the aggregate list (meaning they made at least one top 120 list in the project).

Then they are the 4 centers 53,56,58 &60 in the top 60 centers list as well and 11 other guys in the final top centers list that didn't appear on the aggregate list.

It's possible that some of the 110-220 lists might have around 40 centers.

I'm working my way through the aggregate and top wingers and Dman list as well for points of reference but would really like some some guidance for the goalies after I cross reference those lists.
 
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