Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

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buffalowing88

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Dryden stated in his book that Lapointe was the most important of the Big Three.

Poor Larry, you'd think his last name was Fine.

Dryden's book is amazing but he does suggest that multiple players are the "most important" members on the squad at different times in the book. I think he underrates Lemaire, Savard, and Cournoyer a bit in it. It's a fantastic book, but I don't want to base my opinions on a teammate's perspective entirely.
 
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ted2019

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I have a another name, "Johnny Vermont", John LeClair. His VsX has some good showings and he was one of the top 2 Left Wingers in the league for around a 6 year period. 3X 50 goal scorer when scoring 50 goals actually meant something. Averaged 47 goals a season from 1995-2000. 4 seasons top 10 in points.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Doesn't matter where he ranked players from other teams, the interesting part is how he ranked players he coached.

Bowman coached Trottier in Pittsburgh. Ranked him 62nd.

Also coached Henri Richard at the end of his career in Montreal. Ranked him 13th.

Bottom line, that list is not a very reliable source.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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I have a another name, "Johnny Vermont", John LeClair. His VsX has some good showings and he was one of the top 2 Left Wingers in the league for around a 6 year period. 3X 50 goal scorer when scoring 50 goals actually meant something. Averaged 47 goals a season from 1995-2000. 4 seasons top 10 in points.

He's on my list.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Dryden's book is amazing but he does suggest that multiple players are the "most important" members on the squad at different times in the book. I think he underrates Lemaire, Savard, and Cournoyer a bit in it. It's a fantastic book, but I don't want to base my opinions on a teammate's perspective entirely.

That's fair.

The book also shows how Lapointe was a much bigger part of the locker room dynamic in Montreal.
 

Professor What

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Bowman coached Trottier in Pittsburgh. Ranked him 62nd.

Also coached Henri Richard at the end of his career in Montreal. Ranked him 13th.

Bottom line, that list is not a very reliable source.

It looks like he took all of the names and threw them up against the wall. Wherever they stuck is where they ranked. That's about how much stock I put in it, even though I greatly respect Bowman.
 
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edinson

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I have a another name, "Johnny Vermont", John LeClair. His VsX has some good showings and he was one of the top 2 Left Wingers in the league for around a 6 year period. 3X 50 goal scorer when scoring 50 goals actually meant something. Averaged 47 goals a season from 1995-2000. 4 seasons top 10 in points.
He has a chance of making it somewhere at the bottom of my list. I really like his peak, though there's not much outside those six years. Among contemporary wingers, I have him behind Kariya and slightly ahead of Recchi right now.

I looked into LeClair's scoring numbers with/without Lindros for his 94-95 - 99-00 peak in PHI a while ago so I might as well share it here. Though I'm not sure what to make of them myself as they're pretty much what you'd expect I think. LeClair also has a couple of nice international showings in WC96 and OG02 to show he wasn't just a product of a great situation in PHI.

With Lindros: 346GP 207G 192A 399P 1,15 PPG
Without Lindros: 95GP 53G 45A 98P 1,03 PPG
 

ted2019

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He has a chance of making it somewhere at the bottom of my list. I really like his peak, though there's not much outside those six years. Among contemporary wingers, I have him behind Kariya and slightly ahead of Recchi right now.

I looked into LeClair's scoring numbers with/without Lindros for his 94-95 - 99-00 peak in PHI a while ago so I might as well share it here. Though I'm not sure what to make of them myself as they're pretty much what you'd expect I think. LeClair also has a couple of nice international showings in WC96 and OG02 to show he wasn't just a product of a great situation in PHI.

With Lindros: 346GP 207G 192A 399P 1,15 PPG
Without Lindros: 95GP 53G 45A 98P 1,03 PPG

For those who might be considering Cam Neely, LeClair was a better player. There are some that say that Lindros had some of his success due to the presence of LeClair.
 
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Professor What

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What currently active players are you guys considering? I'm a bit concerned that I'll miss someone current with the lack of a "rear view mirror," as I feel that's a weakness of mine.
 

quoipourquoi

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What currently active players are you guys considering? I'm a bit concerned that I'll miss someone current with the lack of a "rear view mirror," as I feel that's a weakness of mine.

I think there was a discussion a few pages back. Pretty sure this is a comprehensive list of the contenders:

Anze Kopitar
Carey Price
Connor McDavid
Drew Doughty
Henrik Lundqvist
Ilya Kovalchuk
Jonathan Toews
Marc-Andre Fleury
Nikita Kucherov
Patrice Bergeron
Patrick Marleau
Pekka Rinne
Ryan Getzlaf
Steven Stamkos
Tuukka Rask
Victor Hedman
 
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Professor What

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I'm coming into the final stretch of having an actual list now, and I'm really beginning to understand what makes this so difficult. Having two players just a couple of ranks different on a positional chart could well represent 10 to 15 ranks on an overall list, which means that very slight, very understandable disagreements by two project members on where two guys fall among those that play(ed) their position can translate into big differences on a list of all players. I think we all agree that the farther down the list we go, the less there is to separate players. So, when we start having bigger differences in where we rank players among their positions, those differences get even bigger on a full list. Eight to ten positions on a positional list could make a difference of 50 to sixty positions on a full list, which could easily be the difference in an absolutely and a no way. I can't help but wonder if there's really going to be any significant difference between #150 and #200 when we reach the end of this.
 

quoipourquoi

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I can't help but wonder if there's really going to be any significant difference between #150 and #200 when we reach the end of this.

Oh, I doubt it. I wouldn’t worry about the list being anything special. The important thing is that we spend time analyzing the players as they come up so that we’re all better educated on players in this range.

The goal should be that we as individuals have better confidence in our opinions on the players that we discuss - not that we nailed it on a cumulative list in our first attempt.
 

MXD

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I'm coming into the final stretch of having an actual list now, and I'm really beginning to understand what makes this so difficult. Having two players just a couple of ranks different on a positional chart could well represent 10 to 15 ranks on an overall list, which means that very slight, very understandable disagreements by two project members on where two guys fall among those that play(ed) their position can translate into big differences on a list of all players. I think we all agree that the farther down the list we go, the less there is to separate players. So, when we start having bigger differences in where we rank players among their positions, those differences get even bigger on a full list. Eight to ten positions on a positional list could make a difference of 50 to sixty positions on a full list, which could easily be the difference in an absolutely and a no way. I can't help but wonder if there's really going to be any significant difference between #150 and #200 when we reach the end of this.

On top of my head, that would be the difference between, oh, I don't know, Marcel Pronovost and Tom Johnson? Tiny Thompson and Rogatien Vachon? Pavel Datsyuk and Duke Keats? Syd Howe and Daniel Alfredsson?

To me, the difference between each of these players is significant. Maybe not as much as, oh, between Wayne Gretzky and Frank Boucher (a legit 1st - 50th) or even Sergei Makarov and Jari Kurri (26th to 76th), but stilll significant.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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On top of my head, that would be the difference between, oh, I don't know, Marcel Pronovost and Tom Johnson? Tiny Thompson and Rogatien Vachon? Pavel Datsyuk and Duke Keats? Syd Howe and Daniel Alfredsson?

To me, the difference between each of these players is significant. Maybe not as much as, oh, between Wayne Gretzky and Frank Boucher (a legit 1st - 50th) or even Sergei Makarov and Jari Kurri (26th to 76th), but stilll significant.

Syd Howe, what is his claim to fame?

Looks like his best seasons were the War years.
 

Professor What

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Oh, I doubt it. I wouldn’t worry about the list being anything special. The important thing is that we spend time analyzing the players as they come up so that we’re all better educated on players in this range.

The goal should be that we as individuals have better confidence in our opinions on the players that we discuss - not that we nailed it on a cumulative list in our first attempt.

I don't expect it to ever be gotten "right," because there is no one right answer. We'll all have our opinions, but you know what they say about those. I know fully well that another informed group could come up with a list quite different from whatever ours turns into, and they wouldn't be wrong for it.

My post wasn't intended to say anything other than pointing out what's probably the biggest source of difficulty, at least for me. I absolutely agree that education is the most important part, and I for one can say that I've already learned plenty and look forward to what I'm still to learn. That's why I wanted to take part in this to begin with. I haven't been disappointed. So far from that, I've found this much more profitable than I expected, and we've barely begun.

On top of my head, that would be the difference between, oh, I don't know, Marcel Pronovost and Tom Johnson? Tiny Thompson and Rogatien Vachon? Pavel Datsyuk and Duke Keats? Syd Howe and Daniel Alfredsson?

To me, the difference between each of these players is significant. Maybe not as much as, oh, between Wayne Gretzky and Frank Boucher (a legit 1st - 50th) or even Sergei Makarov and Jari Kurri (26th to 76th), but stilll significant.

At the same time, the farther you go down the list, the smaller the gap gets. I think it's fair to say that there's noticeably less difference between Makarov and Kurri (though still significant, no doubt) than between any of the big four and anyone around #50. To further that point, just think about how much different the gap between the players you listed seems to someone who views the "higher" player just a little lower and the "lower" player just a little higher, and that's going to happen with a sizeable group of participants. There are already specific players that I have no doubt I'm going to view noticeably higher or lower than the group as a whole, and I'm sure we're all going to be like that. It would be boring otherwise. That's going to be the difference in the "no way's" and "definitely's" in some cases.

I can't help but think about Lidstrom and Bourque here. Debating the two of them has been popular for years, and when you put them with Shore and Harvey, you've got four guys that could all be legitimately ranked anywhere from second to fifth among defensemen. I can see any potential order for the four of them. So, someone that ranked either Lidstrom or Bourque second among defensemen and the other fifth could conceivably have one of them as high as fifth overall, even if it's a stretch, and the other could be say, 25th, even if, again, it's a stretch. Right there, you've got a gap of perhaps up to 20 ranks between two players that I think we'd all have to agree are, in truth, pretty close. Again, I'm stretching some of the limits there, but it makes the point. We're going to be dealing with players more closely bunched than that by the end of this project.
 

quoipourquoi

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Jan 26, 2009
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I don't expect it to ever be gotten "right," because there is no one right answer. We'll all have our opinions, but you know what they say about those. I know fully well that another informed group could come up with a list quite different from whatever ours turns into, and they wouldn't be wrong for it.

My post wasn't intended to say anything other than pointing out what's probably the biggest source of difficulty, at least for me. I absolutely agree that education is the most important part, and I for one can say that I've already learned plenty and look forward to what I'm still to learn. That's why I wanted to take part in this to begin with. I haven't been disappointed. So far from that, I've found this much more profitable than I expected, and we've barely begun.



At the same time, the farther you go down the list, the smaller the gap gets. I think it's fair to say that there's noticeably less difference between Makarov and Kurri (though still significant, no doubt) than between any of the big four and anyone around #50. To further that point, just think about how much different the gap between the players you listed seems to someone who views the "higher" player just a little lower and the "lower" player just a little higher, and that's going to happen with a sizeable group of participants. There are already specific players that I have no doubt I'm going to view noticeably higher or lower than the group as a whole, and I'm sure we're all going to be like that. It would be boring otherwise. That's going to be the difference in the "no way's" and "definitely's" in some cases.

I can't help but think about Lidstrom and Bourque here. Debating the two of them has been popular for years, and when you put them with Shore and Harvey, you've got four guys that could all be legitimately ranked anywhere from second to fifth among defensemen. I can see any potential order for the four of them. So, someone that ranked either Lidstrom or Bourque second among defensemen and the other fifth could conceivably have one of them as high as fifth overall, even if it's a stretch, and the other could be say, 25th, even if, again, it's a stretch. Right there, you've got a gap of perhaps up to 20 ranks between two players that I think we'd all have to agree are, in truth, pretty close. Again, I'm stretching some of the limits there, but it makes the point. We're going to be dealing with players more closely bunched than that by the end of this project.

For my money, pyramid ranking is the way to go. I put one together in 2013 or so, and it fanned out from 1 to 3 to 5 to 10 to 20 names (39 total players). Assuming a more conservative spread down the line...

1 player
3 players (2-4)
5 players (5-9)
7 players (10-16)
9 players (17-25)
11 players (26-36)
13 players (37-49)
15 players (50-64)
17 players (65-81)
19 players (82-100)
21 players (101-121)
23 players (122-144)
25 players (145-169)
27 players (170-196)
29 players (197-225)

So this project would be like looking at 5 tiers while the last was looking at twice as many.
 
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DitchMarner

TheGlitchintheSwitch
Jul 21, 2017
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I think there was a discussion a few pages back. Pretty sure this is a comprehensive list of the contenders:

Anze Kopitar
Carey Price
Connor McDavid
Drew Doughty
Henrik Lundqvist
Ilya Kovalchuk
Jonathan Toews
Marc-Andre Fleury
Nikita Kucherov
Patrice Bergeron
Patrick Marleau
Pekka Rinne
Ryan Getzlaf
Steven Stamkos
Tuukka Rask
Victor Hedman

Marleau? Other than playing a hell of a lot of games in the NHL, has he really done anything special?

No offense or anything. Very solid player. But nothing about him screams top 200 to me.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Syd Howe, what is his claim to fame?

Looks like his best seasons were the War years.

Syd Howe was a two-way utility player who played C/LW/D as needed. Less D than C/LW, but it still depressed his point totals a little bit in some seasons.

His top 10 point finishes:

1934-35 NHL 47 (2nd)
1938-39 NHL 37 (10th)
1939-40 NHL 37 (8th)
1940-41 NHL 44 (3rd)
1944-45 NHL 53 (10th)
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
The first NHL players to leave for the war did so during 1941-42, and that was just a trickle. 1944-45 was obviously a bad year for the NHL.
 
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