Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[seventieslord]

I agree with the idea that someone expressed earlier that Gartner wasn't necessarily better than Marleau. That doesn't mean Marleau has a shot at my list though.

Oh, I think Gartner is very necessarily better than Marleau. Still doesn't mean he should be on the list. He's a maybe at best.

 

[ted2019]

I would like to know your opinions on 3 very good wingers not yet mentioned.

1) Jamie Benn. Is Benn another active player who deserves a spot somewhere at the bottom of the list? His 3-year peak (2014-16) is impressive. 1st all-star in 14, Art Ross in 15, 1st all-star in 16. Also 3rd in Hart in 2016. Solid playoffs, especially compared to his Dallas teammate T. Seguin. Unfortunately almost no international exposure... Is Benn more worthy for the list than Markus Naslund?

2) Woody Dumart. A defensive consciousness of the famous Kraut line. Big and skilled LWer. Bruins won the SC in 1939 and 1941 and Dumart was 2nd all-star in 40 and 41. He was then drafted and missed most of '42 and three other seasons due to war. Dumart was also 2nd all-star in 1947, 3rd all-star in 48, 4th all-star in 39, 46 and in 1950. Basically an elite two-way forward for more than a decade.

Why was Dumart not included in the HOH Top-60 Wingers list from 5 years ago? Was it because of his only two top-10 scoring finishes? Dumart was a victim of era he played in; did voters refuse to adjust for his WW2 missing years back then?

3) George Hay. One of the best WCHL players. Hay was four times 1st all-star in the WCHL / WHL in between 1922-26. After that league folded, Hay played the '27 season through injuries, yet he ended up 1st NHL all-star LW here in that unofficial GMs' voting. In 1928, Hay was then again 1st NHL all-star LW according to GMs and he was also 4th in Hart voting. In 1929, Hay was 2nd NHL all-star LW - this time GMs picked A. Joliat ahead of him.

Great stickhandler who was at minimum competent defensively and perhaps a 2nd best LWer thoroughout the 1920s (after Denneny?)... So what am I missing? Seems like a sure thing for the Top-200, yet Hay did not make it as a top60 W on this forum 5 years ago.

I've thought about Dumart and I also think that he is underappreciated somewhat. Could be in the 175-220 range on my list.

 

[VanIslander]

Too many great players for "Porky" Dumart to make my list. He is clearly not a top-60 winger and there are 10+ wingers I'd add to that, so 70 wingers in the top 200? Unlikely.

 

[ted2019]

Really? Two world-class Finals runs, four top-3 finishes in save percentage while playing the majority of his teams’ games (the only other goaltenders to do this post-expansion are Roy/Hasek with 7 each, Esposito with 6, and Parent with 5), and they named a wasp after him in 2015.

Full disclosure, Rask is in the #145-165 range on my list. I might have him above Grant Fuhr.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I would like to know your opinions on 3 very good wingers not yet mentioned.

1) Jamie Benn. Is Benn another active player who deserves a spot somewhere at the bottom of the list? His 3-year peak (2014-16) is impressive. 1st all-star in 14, Art Ross in 15, 1st all-star in 16. Also 3rd in Hart in 2016. Solid playoffs, especially compared to his Dallas teammate T. Seguin. Unfortunately almost no international exposure... Is Benn more worthy for the list than Markus Naslund?

2) Woody Dumart. A defensive consciousness of the famous Kraut line. Big and skilled LWer. Bruins won the SC in 1939 and 1941 and Dumart was 2nd all-star in 40 and 41. He was then drafted and missed most of '42 and three other seasons due to war. Dumart was also 2nd all-star in 1947, 3rd all-star in 48, 4th all-star in 39, 46 and in 1950. Basically an elite two-way forward for more than a decade.

Why was Dumart not included in the HOH Top-60 Wingers list from 5 years ago? Was it because of his only two top-10 scoring finishes? Dumart was a victim of era he played in; did voters refuse to adjust for his WW2 missing years back then?

3) George Hay. One of the best WCHL players. Hay was four times 1st all-star in the WCHL / WHL in between 1922-26. After that league folded, Hay played the '27 season through injuries, yet he ended up 1st NHL all-star LW here in that unofficial GMs' voting. In 1928, Hay was then again 1st NHL all-star LW according to GMs and he was also 4th in Hart voting. In 1929, Hay was 2nd NHL all-star LW - this time GMs picked A. Joliat ahead of him.

Great stickhandler who was at minimum competent defensively and perhaps a 2nd best LWer thoroughout the 1920s (after Denneny?)... So what am I missing? Seems like a sure thing for the Top-200, yet Hay did not make it as a top60 W on this forum 5 years ago.

Thank you for mentioning Benn, who I think is a very strong candidate for the 151-200 range.

Jamie Benn is absolutely more worthy than Markus Naslund. Offensively, he's only a tiny bit behind in the regular season. 7 year VsX average: Naslund 82.9, Benn 81.4. 10 year VsX average: Naslund 73.9, Benn 71.2. And Benn kills Naslund in everything other than regular season offense. Not that Benn is a playoff god, but compared to Naslund...

IMO, Benn's legacy is extremely comparable to John LeClair's at this point. The distribution of their best offensive seasons is different (with Benn's Art Ross and LeClair having more top 10 seasons), but overall they average out to very similar production: 7 year VsX average: LeClair 81.7, Benn 81.4. They are actually dead even in 10 year VsX average, both with 71.2: Reference - VsX comprehensive summary (1927 to 2020)

And in terms of style (power forwards but not especially mean ones) and play away from the puck, I see a lot of LeClair in Benn. Both good but not great in the playoffs too.

LeClair was ranked 49th on this forum's wingers list, and I think that is about where Benn should go too. I definitely prefer Benn to someone like Kovalchuk.

__________________

Woody Dumart - was he better than Bert Olmstead, Rick Middleton, or Reg Noble - the bottom group of two-way winger to make the top 60 wingers list?

What about George Armstrong or Baldy Northcott, neither of whom made the list?

One of the problems with Dumart is that his playoff stats are so horrendous. So even if you give him a bit of a boost for loosing some prime years due to the war (which I agree, you should do!), he definitely gets docked some points for his playoff stats.

I do recall now that Dumart was one of those two-way wingers I was hoping to talk about in the final round of the wingers project, but never got a chance to. I just don't know if he makes it.

_____________

@overpass covered George Hay. His All-Star record at LW is outstanding (and we did NOT have full records of this when we did the wingers project).

Hay's latest ATD bio does mention a two-way game more often than I expected it to: ATD 2019 Bio Thread

I wasn't really thinking of him before, but I think I'll include him on my list, just because I think he's one player who really deserves a closer discussion in Round 2.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He couldn’t even be above teammate Corey Perry to this point, could he? Benn, while good, is maybe only of significant interest in this range of players because on one night with absolutely nothing on the line, the Dallas Stars wanted him to win one of the weaker Art Ross races in memory. It was awesome. But it’s not like Naslund had that sort of thing going for him - from 2002-2004 the Canucks were winning and losing divisions by a single point, or fighting off two reams to clinch the #8 spot. They each have just 3 or 4 great seasons, but I think the disparity in their Hart recognition in Naslund’s favor is well earned.

Maybe if Benn had like a good Final or something, but he just couldn’t finish anything, leaving Perry and Joe Pavelski to try to drag the Stars over the finish line. Come to think of it, that sounds like something Markus Naslund would do.

Benn's "next best" regular seasons were better than Corey Perry's by a fair amount.

Benn had 3 straight seasons as a postseason All-Star, and overall 5 straight seasons of really strong play (2013-14 to 2017-18): Jamie Benn Stats | Hockey-Reference.com.

Perry had two great seasons himself (1st Team All-Star both years), and two more really good ones, but was overall less consistent: Corey Perry Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

The "big picture" stats:

Benn Top 10 finishes: 1st, 2nd, 8th
Perry Top 10 finishes: 3rd, 5th

7 year VsX average = 81.4 Benn vs 75.0 Perry
10 year VsX average = 71.2 Benn vs 69.8 Perry

I actually prefer Perry's best season to Benn's best for reasons you said, but overall, Benn looks to have clearly had the more consistently strong regular season prime.

_____________

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the gap between those two "power forwards" is huge. But this pyramid of players that you like to put up, I think Benn has got to be a level up.

 

[seventieslord]

No Chara?

And Shea Weber continues to be underappreciated: the greatest defenseman to not win a Norris or Stanley Cup since Brad Park.

At least Weber was an Olympic all-star selection for the 2010 gold-medal tourney, and he tied Doughty for the team blueline scoring lead (but Shea had a better +/-) in the 2014 Olympic gold.



Hope you guys are considering major best-on-best tourneys like Canada Cups, World Cups and several of the Olympics.

No Chara, because there's no point discussing top-100 players right now!

 

[seventieslord]

And in terms of style (power forwards but not especially mean ones) and play away from the puck, I see a lot of LeClair in Benn. Both good but not great in the playoffs too.

I don't know, I found LeClair to be rather docile for a player who had the "power forward" tag, compared to others at the time (think Shanahan, Tkachuk, Iginla, Tocchet, etc). While on the other hand, Benn is just about the toughest, meanest player in the league right now who can actually play in a team's top 6 on skill alone.

I think in a vaccuum, Benn is a lot meaner/tougher than Leclair, but looking at them relative to league landscapes, he wins that comparison in a landslide.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't know, I found LeClair to be rather docile for a player who had the "power forward" tag, compared to others at the time (think Shanahan, Tkachuk, Iginla, Tocchet, etc). While on the other hand, Benn is just about the toughest, meanest player in the league right now who can actually play in a team's top 6 on skill alone.

I think in a vaccuum, Benn is a lot meaner/tougher than Leclair, but looking at them relative to league landscapes, he wins that comparison in a landslide.

Yes, sometimes I forget that we should consider the "power" part of "power forward" as also relative to the competition.

 

[VanIslander]

Also, just to clarify, my top three defensemen from 2010 to present are:
Keith
Doughty
Hedman

I have Karlsson right after that crowd. I can be persuaded in him over Hedman, but Doughty and Keith defined the 2010's, to me. They're set in place.

No Chara?

And Shea Weber continues to be underappreciated.

To be clear, my comment was about the post directly before mine.

The upshot: Karlsson may be the 6th best dman of the decade.

 

[ted2019]

Thank you for mentioning Benn, who I think is a very strong candidate for the 151-200 range.

Jamie Benn is absolutely more worthy than Markus Naslund. Offensively, he's only a tiny bit behind in the regular season. 7 year VsX average: Naslund 82.9, Benn 81.4. 10 year VsX average: Naslund 73.9, Benn 71.2. And Benn kills Naslund in everything other than regular season offense. Not that Benn is a playoff god, but compared to Naslund...

IMO, Benn's legacy is extremely comparable to John LeClair's at this point. The distribution of their best offensive seasons is different (with Benn's Art Ross and LeClair having more top 10 seasons), but overall they average out to very similar production: 7 year VsX average: LeClair 81.7, Benn 81.4. They are actually dead even in 10 year VsX average, both with 71.2: Reference - VsX comprehensive summary (1927 to 2020)

And in terms of style (power forwards but not especially mean ones) and play away from the puck, I see a lot of LeClair in Benn. Both good but not great in the playoffs too.

LeClair was ranked 49th on this forum's wingers list, and I think that is about where Benn should go too. I definitely prefer Benn to someone like Kovalchuk.

__________________

Woody Dumart - was he better than Bert Olmstead, Rick Middleton, or Reg Noble - the bottom group of two-way winger to make the top 60 wingers list?

What about George Armstrong or Baldy Northcott, neither of whom made the list?

One of the problems with Dumart is that his playoff stats are so horrendous. So even if you give him a bit of a boost for loosing some prime years due to the war (which I agree, you should do!), he definitely gets docked some points for his playoff stats.

I do recall now that Dumart was one of those two-way wingers I was hoping to talk about in the final round of the wingers project, but never got a chance to. I just don't know if he makes it.

_____________

@overpass covered George Hay. His All-Star record at LW is outstanding (and we did NOT have full records of this when we did the wingers project).

Hay's latest ATD bio does mention a two-way game more often than I expected it to: ATD 2019 Bio Thread

I wasn't really thinking of him before, but I think I'll include him on my list, just because I think he's one player who really deserves a closer discussion in Round 2.

The difference between Benn & LeClair for me is that Leclair's peak is a bit stronger then Benn's. I have both above Naslund. Northcott I don't even consider, Armstrong is a maybe. Reg Noble absolutely not. Middelton is a yes for me and Dumart will be in somewhere near the bottom of the top 220. I'll admit that I didn't even think of George Hey, but after looking into things, he should make the bottom part of my list. I'm having issues on where I should put Luc Robitaille on the list.

 

[ted2019]

I don't know, I found LeClair to be rather docile for a player who had the "power forward" tag, compared to others at the time (think Shanahan, Tkachuk, Iginla, Tocchet, etc). While on the other hand, Benn is just about the toughest, meanest player in the league right now who can actually play in a team's top 6 on skill alone.

I think in a vaccuum, Benn is a lot meaner/tougher than Leclair, but looking at them relative to league landscapes, he wins that comparison in a landslide.

LeClair was a beast to get of the puck and was physical around the net and he wasn't a player who mixed it up in the "extra curricular activity" and wasn't one who was collecting PIM's like crazy with his 4 highest being 64/61/58/51. I could most definitely call him a Power Foward. Here's an old thread about times in which players bounced off of other players trying to check them. Times where a player was the receiver of a check but sent the other player flying | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League (mandatory.com)

 

[MXD]

That may be a little harsh, but if you find room for Woody Dumart, take a look at your list to see if you forgot someone. Repeat until Dumart is off the list.

Clearly a Top-300 player of all-time, but 200 players may find us missing room for the likes of Paul Thompson and Bert Olmstead.

EDIT : ... Well, if we go to 220, I suppose Dumart may start to not look out of place.

 

[ted2019]

I sort of have a question. Why are there folks saying that they will have more centers and wingers on their lists and not giving defensemen and goalies their due? It's suppose to be about the top 220 players currently, not the " lets try and see on how many forwards we can get on" list. The top 220 players are the top 220 players, no matter what position or their style of play.

 

[ted2019]

That may be a little harsh, but if you find room for Woody Dumart, take a look at your list to see if you forgot someone. Repeat until Dumart is off the list.

Clearly a Top-300 player of all-time, but 200 players may find us missing room for the likes of Paul Thompson and Bert Olmstead.

EDIT : ... Well, if we go to 220, I suppose Dumart may start to not look out of place.

Dumart should be apart of my top 220 list. For that matter, so should Thompson & Olmstead.

 

[VanIslander]

C, W, D, G = 4 positions

200 players.

Even if take out G, that's 200/3=67 W expected, ASSUMING the greatness of players is evenly distributed by position.

One thing the ATDs has taught me: in building a team i have had to pick lesser wingers over greater centers (Olympic teams have struggled with that as well).

There is no quota. But one does not expect 70 wingers to be ranked top 200 and Dumart ain't top 70. That's my point.

But we will see.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't know, I found LeClair to be rather docile for a player who had the "power forward" tag, compared to others at the time (think Shanahan, Tkachuk, Iginla, Tocchet, etc). While on the other hand, Benn is just about the toughest, meanest player in the league right now who can actually play in a team's top 6 on skill alone.

I think in a vaccuum, Benn is a lot meaner/tougher than Leclair, but looking at them relative to league landscapes, he wins that comparison in a landslide.

No love for the king of power forwards, Cam Neely?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Dumart should be apart of my top 220 list. For that matter, so should Thompson & Olmstead.

Currently none of them are on my list.

 

[seventieslord]

No love for the king of power forwards, Cam Neely?

I definitely should have mentioned him in that list, shouldn't I?

 

[quoipourquoi]

C, W, D, G = 4 positions

200 players.

Even if take out G, that's 200/3=67 W expected, ASSUMING the greatness of players is evenly distributed by position.

One thing the ATDs has taught me: in building a team i have had to pick lesser wingers over greater centers (Olympic teams have struggled with that as well).

There is no quota. But one does not expect 70 wingers to be ranked top 200 and Dumart ain't top 70. That's my point.

But we will see.

If the previous project is any indication, we may see Defensemen and Wingers hover around the 25% share while Centers eat up Goaltenders’ part of the pie.

 

[MXD]

I think the five first eligible players in my list will be goaltenders. I mean that's where things are headed at the moment.

 

[buffalowing88]

Really? Two world-class Finals runs, four top-3 finishes in save percentage while playing the majority of his teams’ games (the only other goaltenders to do this post-expansion are Roy/Hasek with 7 each, Esposito with 6, and Parent with 5), and they named a wasp after him in 2015.

Those are all good points. I'll reconsider him. I just have trouble with him as a bit of a kook and somewhat unreliable. The resume is there, but I just wonder how much of it was him. I don't remember him stealing games during that tenure. I remember the Bruins being an absolute machine. Maybe he's a modern-day Brodeur. A very good goalie who happened to be behind an even better system and defense. I'll look for a spot for him because you bring up some good points, I'm just not entirely sold.

 

[buffalowing88]

If the previous project is any indication, we may see Defensemen and Wingers hover around the 25% share while Centers eat up Goaltenders’ part of the pie.

Admittedly, this is already happening in my list. I just don't know if it's something I should feel bad about, or if it means the centers simply are more important in the long-term. Franchises have more turnover among defensemen and goalies then they do around star centers.

 

[buffalowing88]

He couldn’t even be above teammate Corey Perry to this point, could he? Benn, while good, is maybe only of significant interest in this range of players because on one night with absolutely nothing on the line, the Dallas Stars wanted him to win one of the weaker Art Ross races in memory. It was awesome. But it’s not like Naslund had that sort of thing going for him - from 2002-2004 the Canucks were winning and losing divisions by a single point, or fighting off two reams to clinch the #8 spot. They each have just 3 or 4 great seasons, but I think the disparity in their Hart recognition in Naslund’s favor is well earned.

Maybe if Benn had like a good Final or something, but he just couldn’t finish anything, leaving Perry and Joe Pavelski to try to drag the Stars over the finish line. Come to think of it, that sounds like something Markus Naslund would do.

Glad to know I didn't think the Benn overreaction initially wasn't ridiculous. He's not in my top 200. I don't think a case can be made yet, either. He's only like 31, he has time. Right now, though, that is a joke.

 

[VanIslander]

Admittedly, this is already happening in my list. I just don't know if it's something I should feel bad about, or if it means the centers simply are more important in the long-term. Franchises have more turnover among defensemen and goalies then they do around star centers.

1. The best athletes often gravitate to playing that position, in the modern NHL anyways. Pre-1960's and pre-NHL days and the Soviet way are clearly different.

2. This isn't the ATD. If the best forward on a team or the next-best on your list happens to be a center, so be it. It seems wrong to enforce an x number of players quota to a position.