Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[TheDevilMadeMe]

1. The best athletes often gravitate to playing that position, in the modern NHL anyways. Pre-1960's and pre-NHL days and the Soviet way are clearly different.

2. This isn't the ATD. If the best forward on a team or the next-best on your list happens to be a center, so be it. It seems wrong to enforce an x number of players quota to a position.

Yup, I finished my rough draft down to #175, and I only have 2 guys left from the HOH Top Centers project who aren't on my list yet. So I'll obviously end up with way more than 60 centers on my final list. I still have tons of guys left from the dmen, goalies, and wingers lists.

 

[ted2019]

I have 2 guys that I have thought about and that's Bill Barber & Brian Propp. Both outstanding 2 way wingers and both showed up in the playoffs ( Propp in particular, 31st in points all time). Barber has the post season AS and Propp is coming from that vaunted Brandon Wheat Kings team in Juniors.

 

[ted2019]

Yup, I finished my rough draft down to #175, and I only have 2 guys left from the HOH Top Centers project who aren't on my list yet. So I'll obviously end up with way more than 60 centers on my final list. I still have tons of guys left from the dmen, goalies, and wingers lists.

I'll guess and say that they are Joe Primeau & Igor Larionov ?

 

[ted2019]

I do know one thing and that's I'm having WAY too much fun doing this project.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I had an idea that came to me in the cruel darkness of pre-dawn- and it might be too late for me (since "all-you-can-eat" Overtime has returned to my wonderful workplace, just in time for the run-up to The Holidays) but I'll share this with anyone who wants to check their impressions to make sure they're not too derivative:

Here's an interesting post by QPQ from the previous project. It contains the 208 players of the prior Aggregate List, in Alphabetical Order. I thought about going through each of the names there, and placing them in one of five categories-
1) Already in our Top-100 (or top-100 and/or previously constructed list, for those of us who made a Top-120 list before)
2) Highly worthy (next tier of obvious Hall-of-Famers, people deserving of obvious Hall-of-Fame status, and the best of the mainstream Hall-of-Famers)
3) Moderately worthy (clear core mainstream Hall-of-Famers and those worthy of such consideration)
4) Sort-of-worthy (bottom half of mainstream Hall-of-Famers and the other also-rans)
[and if we're being really honest with ourselves, consider a 5th category]-
5) Don't know enough about these folks to make a judgement one way or the other. [Of course, that's your cue to research and learn more about the player(!)]

I'd say that if we're not being too apish, most of us could find at least a dozen Aggy List players (in our 'sort-of-worthy' column) that we wouldn't care to place in our personal top-220(s). This, of course, obliges us to find about two-dozen NOT on that list that we'd be inclined to add. Here's where you insert your Larry-Murphy-types. [And if our Project Administrator wants to add Cammi Granato at this point, go crazy...]

If we do this before we reference the previously-created lists, rather than during or after them, then (I'd argue) we'll reduce the reverb in the echo-chamber. That's gotta be a good thing, right?!

 

[ted2019]

Just throwing up a few names ( that might make a few throw up), Marc Tardif, Ulf Nilsson, Anders Hedberg.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yup, I finished my rough draft down to #175, and I only have 2 guys left from the HOH Top Centers project who aren't on my list yet. So I'll obviously end up with way more than 60 centers on my final list. I still have tons of guys left from the dmen, goalies, and wingers lists.

As I go haphazardly making my list, I'm finding at the bottom of it there are very few centers.

So that makes sense.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I’m curious as to why Ilya Kovalchuk is considered so easily dismissable for this project? I remember him as a bona fide superstar for years, albeit perhaps a bit one-dimensional and flawed, but aren’t most guys with that distinction making the top 200? I think Hossa is decisively ahead of Kovalchuk by now, however I’m not sure who was more widely considered the best player on those Thrashers teams, but my gut says it was Kovalchuk.

I hurriedly did this on the phone and something might be off, but I think these are Kovalchuk’s top ten finishes:

Goals
T1-2-T3-4-5-7-8
Points
2-6-T6-T6-8-10

He also had one 1st and one 2nd team all star selection, and he ended up third in LW voting on three other occasions, plus: he decisively led the Devils in scoring (one point off the top two overall) when they made the finals in 2012 (where he only managed a goal in six games and was -3, however).

Something I really don’t know what to make of concerning Kovalchuk’s career is his KHL stats, where I’d be very interested in hearing from someone who’s followed that league and knows more about how to contextualize them.

You’d figure he was going to go rampant over there, but guys like Jan Kovar and Nigel Dawes could have him beat in any given year. Now, I’m into the SHL: I know hockey’s played differently on the big ice surface, that scoring is low, and it’s generally more of a team game in all three zones where scoring titles aren’t necessarily an adequate determinant of the overall ability of a player (case in point: Emil Larsson of my favorite team Luleå teared up the league with 23 goals in 2017-18; but even during that insanely productive season, I’d argue he was only the third best player on that line), but I’d be curious in hearing from someone with insight, how Kovalchuk stands compared to Sergei Mozyakin, for example, who’s the all time leader in points in the KHL and routinely was able to outscore similarly-aged Kovalchuk.

 

[quoipourquoi]

[And if our Project Administrator wants to add Cammi Granato at this point, go crazy...]

Oh, I’ll do it! I started collecting Cammi Granato cards this Summer. I think I have all but two. She’s awesome.

 

[ted2019]

As I go haphazardly making my list, I'm finding at the bottom of it there are very few centers.

So that makes sense.

My wife made me a thing on Excel and I have players in 5 categories, makes it a lot easier to keep track of.

 

[quoipourquoi]

My wife made me a thing on Excel and I have players in 5 categories, makes it a lot easier to keep track of.

Now that’s support. I had to dodge mine last night because I didn’t want her to see me running a pivot table at 11pm.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

My wife made me a thing on Excel and I have players in 5 categories, makes it a lot easier to keep track of.

Thanks for the tip.

But that seems too organized. Haphazard is in my DNA.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Just throwing up a few names ( that might make a few throw up), Marc Tardif, Ulf Nilsson, Anders Hedberg.

Nilsson and Hedberg were super players (with Bobby Hull).

They were pretty good players with the Rangers.

 

[seventieslord]

Just throwing up a few names ( that might make a few throw up), Marc Tardif, Ulf Nilsson, Anders Hedberg.

Hard no

 

[Professor What]

I’m curious as to why Ilya Kovalchuk is considered so easily dismissable for this project? I remember him as a bona fide superstar for years, albeit perhaps a bit one-dimensional and flawed, but aren’t most guys with that distinction making the top 200? I think Hossa is decisively ahead of Kovalchuk by now, however I’m not sure who was more widely considered the best player on those Thrashers teams, but my gut says it was Kovalchuk.

I hurriedly did this on the phone and something might be off, but I think these are Kovalchuk’s top ten finishes:

Goals
T1-2-T3-4-5-7-8
Points
2-6-T6-T6-8-10

He also had one 1st and one 2nd team all star selection, and he ended up third in LW voting on three other occasions, plus: he decisively led the Devils in scoring (one point off the top two overall) when they made the finals in 2012 (where he only managed a goal in six games and was -3, however).

Something I really don’t know what to make of concerning Kovalchuk’s career is his KHL stats, where I’d be very interested in hearing from someone who’s followed that league and knows more about how to contextualize them.

You’d figure he was going to go rampant over there, but guys like Jan Kovar and Nigel Dawes could have him beat in any given year. Now, I’m into the SHL: I know hockey’s played differently on the big ice surface, that scoring is low, and it’s generally more of a team game in all three zones where scoring titles aren’t necessarily an adequate determinant of the overall ability of a player (case in point: Emil Larsson of my favorite team Luleå teared up the league with 23 goals in 2017-18; but even during that insanely productive season, I’d argue he was only the third best player on that line), but I’d be curious in hearing from someone with insight, how Kovalchuk stands compared to Sergei Mozyakin, for example, who’s the all time leader in points in the KHL and routinely was able to outscore similarly-aged Kovalchuk.

I'm not dismissing Kovalchuk, and I agree with you that he shouldn't be brushed off, but to be honest, I think he's going to come up a bit short for me. I think that the KHL tenure is a problem since, as you say, it's hard to know what to do with it, but it's part of a bigger problem. His last NHL season before the jump doesn't hold up to the same standard as his earlier seasons, and that being followed by a five year absence from the league, followed by an underwhelming return doesn't really make my best guess as to what his KHL years represent a very good impression.

Also, for a player who's as one-dimensional as Kovalchuk has been, his peak didn't last quite as long or go quite as high as I would like to make him a more comfortable fit for the list. It's not his fault that Ovechkin came along and stole the title of the league's top goal scorer relatively early in his career, but I don't think anyone would have imagined that he'd only lead the league in goals once or never have a 40-goal season after age 26 with the hype that built up early on. He's one of those guys that feel like he should have been more than what he has been.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Call me crazy, but I never would have considered Jamie Benn for this list...

But I would consider Kovalchuk...Kovy was pretty impactful in the NHL. I know it's a lot of World Championships work, but he has a very strong international resume...

He has a KHL playoffs MVP. A KHL Art Ross...and yeah, sure, it's the KHL...but if anyone gives consideration to the WHA, then you can very, very easily give some credit to the KHL and be intellectually honest...

He was dealt a really poor hand by being a Thrasher, but otherwise, he got a fair amount of winning under his belt by the end of his career...

 

[Professor What]

Call me crazy, but I never would have considered Jamie Benn for this list...

But I would consider Kovalchuk...Kovy was pretty impactful in the NHL. I know it's a lot of World Championships work, but he has a very strong international resume...

He has a KHL playoffs MVP. A KHL Art Ross...and yeah, sure, it's the KHL...but if anyone gives consideration to the WHA, then you can very, very easily give some credit to the KHL and be intellectually honest...

He was dealt a really poor hand by being a Thrasher, but otherwise, he got a fair amount of winning under his belt by the end of his career...

Yeah, Jamie Benn's a no for me too.

@ted2019 mentioned Marc Tardif a few posts ago, and I think that becomes relevant for the Kovalchuk discussion here. Tardif was the WHA's all-time goals leader, so decide what you think about that and maybe you have some guidance to what to make of Kovalchuk's KHL years. Personally, I don't see Tardif as a particularly strong candidate for my list, so that doesn't help Kovalchuk's case here either. But again, I agree that he at least deserves consideration.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Call me crazy, but I never would have considered Jamie Benn for this list...

But I would consider Kovalchuk...Kovy was pretty impactful in the NHL. I know it's a lot of World Championships work, but he has a very strong international resume...

He has a KHL playoffs MVP. A KHL Art Ross...and yeah, sure, it's the KHL...but if anyone gives consideration to the WHA, then you can very, very easily give some credit to the KHL and be intellectually honest...

He was dealt a really poor hand by being a Thrasher, but otherwise, he got a fair amount of winning under his belt by the end of his career...

Bad teams, bad luck, sure.

But he's 13th worst all-time for forwards with a career -146. Well, since the stat has been official I guess. Still, there aren't any other great players found down that low.

And we all know, defense was an afterthought most of the time for Kovy.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, it's a pretty rough number. Even with his buy-in to the heavy forecheck 2012 Devils team, he was still just about the worst minus on the team in the RS and playoffs...

He also scores a goal every other game in the NHL, which is not insignificant...

For players that hit pension, he's t-27th all time in goals per game...that's a meaty placement, particularly for the era that he started in and the absolute dog mess of a team that he played on...

 

[ted2019]

Call me crazy, but I never would have considered Jamie Benn for this list...

But I would consider Kovalchuk...Kovy was pretty impactful in the NHL. I know it's a lot of World Championships work, but he has a very strong international resume...

He has a KHL playoffs MVP. A KHL Art Ross...and yeah, sure, it's the KHL...but if anyone gives consideration to the WHA, then you can very, very easily give some credit to the KHL and be intellectually honest...

He was dealt a really poor hand by being a Thrasher, but otherwise, he got a fair amount of winning under his belt by the end of his career...

I would never thought about Benn myself until I did a deeper dive on him. Actually, Benn has a better Post Season AS record & Hart votes then Kovalchuk has. I have Benn in and Kovy maybe between #190-220.

 

[ted2019]

Yeah, Jamie Benn's a no for me too.

@ted2019 mentioned Marc Tardif a few posts ago, and I think that becomes relevant for the Kovalchuk discussion here. Tardif was the WHA's all-time goals leader, so decide what you think about that and maybe you have some guidance to what to make of Kovalchuk's KHL years. Personally, I don't see Tardif as a particularly strong candidate for my list, so that doesn't help Kovalchuk's case here either. But again, I agree that he at least deserves consideration.

TBH, I basically threw some names up to get some more discussion going. I have no to Tardif/Hedberg/Nilsson. I am thinking about Brian Propp however.

 

[Professor What]

TBH, I basically threw some names up to get some more discussion going. I have no to Tardif/Hedberg/Nilsson. I am thinking about Brian Propp however.

It still ended up being useful to my considerations of Kovalchuk as discussions went on, so it works for me regardless.

I looked at Propp, but I'm pretty sure he's not going to make my list barring some new perspective I haven't seen yet. Good player, but I'm not so sure he's good enough to crack my 220.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Not to absolve Kovalchuk for his not great All-Star record, but from 2002-2011, the LW position wasn’t its usual weak self, claiming Hart nominations in 5 seasons, a Pearson nomination in a 6th season, and three additional top-5 placements in the Hart race besides whatever Ilya Kovalchuk was doing.

2012 was one of the first seasons in a while that nothing was really going on at the position, and sure enough, Kovalchuk grabbed that All-Star selection.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not to absolve Kovalchuk for his not great All-Star record, but from 2002-2011, the LW position wasn’t its usual weak self, claiming Hart nominations in 5 seasons, a Pearson nomination in a 6th season, and three additional top-5 placements in the Hart race besides whatever Ilya Kovalchuk was doing.

2012 was one of the first seasons in a while that nothing was really going on at the position, and sure enough, Kovalchuk grabbed that All-Star selection.

2012 was also the only full season of Kovalchuk's career when he made any effort without the puck (following his half season with Lemaire), and this (temporary) change was well publicized at the time, so the All-Star voters should have been aware of that.

 

[DitchMarner]

I'm not convinced Benn is better than certain other players who had very high but short peaks (Naslund, Bertuzzi, Lecavalier come to mind) by such an extent that he deserves consideration for a top 200 list.

Hell, I'd take 2007 Lecavalier over 2015 Benn (I think there's no way Benn outscores 2007 Crosby or Thornton) and Lecavalier isn't a guy I consider all that close to a top 200 player. Is Benn even that much better than Tavares? He barely outscored him in 2015 and Tavares is a two-time Hart finalist. Is he that much better than Taylor Hall (Hart Trophy + three top ten scoring finishes)?

Maybe I'm underrating the quality and/or length of Benn's prime. I don't really tend to think of him as too notable a player outside of his best two or three season stretch.