Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[VMBM]

Larionov sacrificed stats to play a certain style of play.

GreatestHockeyLegends said: ↑

Due to the Soviet system the center Larionov was always understated. But he was the perfect man for the job, willing to play positional, deep-defensive zone hockey and making perfect transition passes. He was the glue, both technically and psychologically, that kept the machine running.

Ready to take those brilliant passes were Krutov and Makarov, the wingers with the speed and offensive arsenal of fighter jets. They were explosively spectacular players, blessed with incredible skating and puck handling ability.

Igor Larionov was, very subtly, one of the most highly skilled hockey players we have ever seen. In some ways his best days were left behind in the old Soviet Union, but he still has excelled at the NHL level more so than any other of the veteran former Red Army teammates.​

I think that quote is way too flattering towards Larionov. And I do mean WAY too flattering... "The glue (...) that kept the machine running"... Give me a break. Like Makarov and Krutov were just some floaters who waited for Larionov to feed them. Urgh.

I'd advice to forget the stats and the argument around that for a while and rather compare Larionov's SPOTY voting and domestic and international awards/all-star record especially to those of his linemates Krutov and Makarov; we're really talking about different level of players there. Did the voters/the media both domestically and internationally just look at the stats and were they all so blind that they didn't notice Larionov's genius and his supposed importance to the line/unit? Or was Larionov - like I see it and like his modest accolades indicate - simply clearly inferior player to Makarov and even to Krutov?

Maybe he still belongs to top 200, I don't know.

 

[Theokritos]

Did the voters/the media both domestically and internationally just look at the stats and were they all so blind that they didn't notice Larionov's genius and his supposed importance to the line/unit?

This it indeed what I'd build the case for Starshinov over Larionov on. When you look at the Soviet observers, you do get the impression Starshinov was internationally underappreciated. And not in the sense of "boo-hoo, all of our players are underappreciated!" but underappreciated relative to other Soviet players.

Honours by international voters:
Larionov has two years with accolades (All-star 1983, 1986)
Starshinov has one year with accolades (Best Forward 1965)

Unfortunately, the Soviet Best Player voting only started in 1968 and thus the ranking is missing for the seasons Starshinov was aged 20/21 to 26/27. The four-year tail-end that we have gives him the following rankings among Soviet players: 2, 3, 3, 9. It's safe to say he would have added more top 5 rankings and most likely top 3 rankings if the annual voting was introduced earlier, in particular in his five missing prime years (1962/63 til 1966/67).

For Larionov we have rankings for the seaons he was aged 20/21 to 27/28: 1, 4, 4, 6, 6, 6, 9, 10.

 

[Batis]

This it indeed what I'd build the case for Starshinov over Larionov on. When you look at the Soviet observers, you do get the impression Starshinov was internationally underappreciated. And not in the sense of "boo-hoo, all of our players are underappreciated!" but underappreciated relative to other Soviet players.

Honours by international voters:
Larionov has two years with accolades (All-star 1983, 1986)
Starshinov has one year with accolades (Best Forward 1965)

Unfortunately, the Soviet Best Player voting only started in 1968 and thus the ranking is missing for the seasons Starshinov was aged 20/21 to 26/27. The four-year tail-end that we have gives him the following rankings among Soviet players: 2, 3, 3, 9. It's safe to say he would have added more top 5 rankings and most likely top 3 rankings if the annual voting was introduced earlier, in particular in his five missing prime years (1962/63 til 1966/67).

For Larionov we have rankings for the seaons he was aged 20/21 to 27/28: 1, 4, 4, 6, 6, 6, 9, 10.

Yes Starshinovs strong award recognition domestically (both SPOTY voting and All-Star team selections) makes me more willing to give him the benefit of a doubt for his rather mediocre/weak award recognition on the international stage. Regarding their Soviet player of the year voting records it is also worth noting that when it comes to voting shares Starshinov managed to achieve more during those 4 seasons at the end of his prime than what Larionov achieved throughout his entire prime.

Vyacheslav Starshinov
67/68: 84/153 = 0.549
68/69: 56/165 = 0.339
69/70: 83/204 = 0.407
70/71: 5/204 = 0.025
3-year average: 0.432
5-year average: 0.264
7-year average: 0.189

Igor Larionov
87/88: 142/258 = 0.550
85/86: 35/282 = 0.124
86/87: 28/267 = 0.105
81/82: 20/222 = 0.090
82/83: 15/243 = 0.062
88/89: 9/237 = 0.038
84/85: 10/264 = 0.038
83/84: 7/261 = 0.027
3-year average: 0.260
5-year average: 0.186
7-year average: 0.144

And here you can see how they compare to the other top forwards when it comes to SPOTY voting shares.

Soviet player of the year voting shares (67/68-89/90)

3-year average
1. Sergey Makarov 0.747
2. Anatoly Firsov 0.650
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.630
4. Valery Kharlamov 0.628
5. Alexander Maltsev 0.592
6. Boris Mikhailov 0.434
7. Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.432
8. Vladimir Petrov 0.411
9. Helmuts Balderis 0.304
10. Vyacheslav Bykov 0.303

Igor Larionov 0.260

5-year average
1. Sergey Makarov 0.660
2. Valery Kharlamov 0.522
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.516
4. Alexander Maltsev 0.469
5. Anatoly Firsov 0.418
6. Boris Mikhailov 0.358
7. Vladimir Petrov 0.287
8. Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.264 (Only recieved votes in 4 seasons)
9. Helmuts Balderis 0.192
10. Vyacheslav Bykov 0.189

Igor Larionov 0.186

7-year average
1. Sergey Makarov 0.551
2. Valery Kharlamov 0.440
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.388
4. Alexander Maltsev 0.383
5. Boris Mikhailov 0.316
6. Anatoly Firsov 0.299 (Only recieved votes in 5 seasons)
7. Vladimir Petrov 0.218
8. Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.189 (Only recieved votes in 4 seasons)
9. Igor Larionov 0.144
10. Alexander Yakushev 0.140

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Larionov is pretty well set in my list. I appreciate your reasoning on everything thus far, but what makes him fall short in your opinion?

See comments above.

 

[DN28]

I'm really not convinced that Starshinov should be a sure bet for the top-220. I think his international play doesn't look good enough at all. One time WHC Best forward, never an all-star and for most of his international career he was competing against players who, except for Firsov, will have no chance of making this list. Can we even be sure he was the 2nd best European forward during the 60's based on that?

You definitely have a point in that Starshinov's international career (solely) looks very average at first glance. Indeed no WHC all-stars, only one Best Forward award, but...

Starshinov does impress the more time you spend on researching him. I have some additional info on him which some of you may not know.

For example at '66 WHC, Starsh was neither all-star nor directoriate best forward, but he scored a lot throughout the tournament and especially when it mattered. CSSR had the upper hand; up until the final game they had won everything while Soviets had slipped on SWE. USSR had to win, draw wouldn't have been enough. What happened?

Soviets swept the exhausted Czechoslovaks and ran them off the ice. The game was won 7:1, Starshinov scored hattrick (incl. 1st goal in 2nd min., 2nd goal in 4th min.) and was reportedly one of the two best players of this deciding game (he and Firsov).

Almetov was an all-star C, but Czech coach Vladimír Kostka said in post-WHC interview that Starshinov would have been his pick for the tournament's top center.

We don't have full all-star voting results from 1966 or 1967 championships.. and '67 WHC all-star C is Almetov again but..

We do have Arkady Chernyshev’s list of best players from the '67 championship. What did he think about Starshinov and others?

I have found Arkady Chernyshev’s list of best players at the Vienna 1967’ Championship in the Kopaná-Hokej interview. The list is following:

View attachment 375513

KH: “Which WHC players were the best to you?”

AC: “In goal – Martin. This Canadian is without a doubt the best goaltender over the last years. I would nominate our Konovalenko as the second goalie, and as a third – the American Wetzel.

Davydov was the best amongst defensemen. He played greatly in all the games and was almost flawless. That is very important in such esteemed tournament. Ragulin deserves a high praise too. From other teams’ defensemen, I would pick the Canadian Brewer and the CSSR player Suchý.

Firsov showed an outstanding game in the offense. He was certainly the best. I would name Starshinov as the second best. What a fantastic warrior who can play on the ice exactly what interests of the collective dictate. I would put the Swede Nils Nilsson on the third place, and on the fourth – Jaroslav Holík from the CSSR.”

There is more than this. For example at the end '70 WHC, Czech coach Vladimír Kostka was asked on his all-star team from the tournament. Admittedly, he did tell the reporter that centers had weaker WHC but he picked Starshinov as his choice for the all-star C instead of his own player Václav Nedomanský who was an actual all-star C according to media vote!

Starshinov was the unofficial 2nd all-star C with the 4th best voting record among all forwards at the '70 WHC. I highly suspect that if we had complete all-star voting records from all of the 1960s championships, this voting pattern is what we would see..

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think that quote is way too flattering towards Larionov. And I do mean WAY too flattering...

That's exactly what I said to myself after I read that...

I have a lot of time really smart players, it's really my #1 quality when looking at a player...but man, Larionov is getting a lot of miles out of this...

I can't even call him Datsyuk Jr. because he's a little overrated here...and Joe Thornton Jr. is too strong for Larionov...but a much better Scott Gomez isn't very nice either...

I can't readily comment on Starshinov...but Larionov wasn't a gamebreaker like some of the guys we have been talking about here...he kept it moving, he was really smart and didn't hold world class linemates back certainly...skill level was good, not great...skating wasn't noteworthy...shot wasn't noteworthy...excellent passer...useful two-way player, but in a similar way to Datsyuk - with a lot more use in the NZ because he wasn't physically imposing enough to really box out down low...

I don't know, boys...even giving full marks for hockey sense, he's not better than a lot of players we have discussed...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

By the way, I brought up Starshinov specifically, because he's a relatively rare player for whom our knowledge base greatly expanded since the original top players by position lists came out.

 

[Professor What]

Looking back over the top centers list, I have to ask, has there been some sort of change of heart of Larionov on the board? He finished two spots higher than Krutov, and while it's been stated that Starshinov should have been higher than he was, the suggestion of where he should have finished would still probably have him below the other two. Based on that, I'm having a hard time understanding why Larionov wouldn't generally be a slam dunk for the top-220 unless there's been some revelation about him that drags him down, and that's kind of hard for me to imagine since a lot of us would have something of a grasp on him since we did see at least part of his NHL career, meaning he's more familiar.

I don't think I'd go quite as far as the defense of Larionov that was given earlier, but it does pick up on my general view of his game. He was a smart positional player that did what was asked for the benefit of his team. I do think that his offense could have been noticeably bigger if he had been more sold out to that end of the ice, but I also think that his resume is behind those of Krutov and Makarov. As it stands now, he's going to make my list with room to spare.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Looking back over the top centers list, I have to ask, has there been some sort of change of heart of Larionov on the board? He finished two spots higher than Krutov, and while it's been stated that Starshinov should have been higher than he was, the suggestion of where he should have finished would still probably have him below the other two. Based on that, I'm having a hard time understanding why Larionov wouldn't generally be a slam dunk for the top-220 unless there's been some revelation about him that drags him down, and that's kind of hard for me to imagine since a lot of us would have something of a grasp on him since we did see at least part of his NHL career, meaning he's more familiar.

I don't think I'd go quite as far as the defense of Larionov that was given earlier, but it does pick up on my general view of his game. He was a smart positional player that did what was asked for the benefit of his team. I do think that his offense could have been noticeably bigger if he had been more sold out to that end of the ice, but I also think that his resume is behind those of Krutov and Makarov. As it stands now, he's going to make my list with room to spare.

Perhaps there was some North American guilt?

I know I had Petrov & Maltsev ahead of Larianov back then. As I still do.

Starshinov seems to have gained ground. Most likely because we have more European posters now to fill in some the blanks.

 

[Professor What]

Okay, I just caught a big mistake I made in that post. I had Krutov in mind because of the KLM line, and mentioned him instead of Petrov on the centers list, and I should have said that Larionov was two spots behind. Anyway...

Perhaps there was some North American guilt?

I know I had Petrov & Maltsev ahead of Larianov back then. As I still do.

Starshinov seems to have gained ground. Most likely because we have more European posters now to fill in some the blanks.

I agree with Petrov and Maltsev ahead, and Maltsev way ahead. I also agree with Starshinov making up ground. Based on where Starshinov finished in the centers project and the apparent "sellers remorse" that it seems some participants rightly have, that's a given. But, I still see Petrov, Larionov, and Starshinov fairly tightly bunched, and they don't feel like they're dragging the very end of the list to me.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Okay, I just caught a big mistake I made in that post. I had Krutov in mind because of the KLM line, and mentioned him instead of Petrov on the centers list, and I should have said that Larionov was two spots behind. Anyway...



I agree with Petrov and Maltsev ahead, and Maltsev way ahead. I also agree with Starshinov making up ground. Based on where Starshinov finished in the centers project and the apparent "sellers remorse" that it seems some participants rightly have, that's a given. But, I still see Petrov, Larionov, and Starshinov fairly tightly bunched, and they don't feel like they're dragging the very end of the list to me.

Petrov was a 4 time leading scorer in World Championships.

5 time leading scorer in Soviet league.

Twice Soviet player of the year.

He was a real superstar.

 

[MXD]

Without digging too much into it, I don't see the gap between Maltsev and Petrov, then the gap between Petrov and Starshinov as being tight enough to justify locking in Starshinov in my ranking. Not saying he won't make it, but I have a rough clue as to where I'll rank Maltsev and Petrov, and it result from those clues that the best he can hope for is the absolute fringes of my Preliminary List.

Also, errh, what happened between the Top-50 European players list and, well, right now, to make Starshinov such a must? 25th, right between Jiri Holik and Nikolai Sologubov, doesn't exactly scream "MUST". He didn't even end up close to the likes of Kasatonov and Yakushev, players who are sure candidates to make this list, but shouldn't be considered locks by any stretch like, say, Maltsev or Martinek.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Without digging too much into it, I don't see the gap between Maltsev and Petrov, then the gap between Petrov and Starshinov as being tight enough to justify locking in Starshinov in my ranking. Not saying he won't make it, but I have a rough clue as to where I'll rank Maltsev and Petrov, and it result from those clues that the best he can hope for is the absolute fringes of my Preliminary List.

Also, errh, what happened between the Top-50 European players list and, well, right now, to make Starshinov such a must? 25th, right between Jiri Holik and Nikolai Sologubov, doesn't exactly scream "MUST". He didn't even end up close to the likes of Kasatonov and Yakushev, players who are sure candidates to make this list, but shouldn't be considered locks by any stretch like, say, Maltsev or Martinek.

I believe that the information on Starshinov's fairly strong defensive game wasn't widely available on this forum even when the Europeans project was made. @Theokritos could perhaps confirm the timeframe.

 

[Theokritos]

I believe that the information on Starshinov's fairly strong defensive game wasn't widely available on this forum even when the Europeans project was made. @Theokritos could perhaps confirm the timeframe.

Correct. The Europeans project was in 2015-2016, the new infos on Starshinov went up on the ATD Board in February 2017.

 

[Professor What]

Without digging too much into it, I don't see the gap between Maltsev and Petrov, then the gap between Petrov and Starshinov as being tight enough to justify locking in Starshinov in my ranking. Not saying he won't make it, but I have a rough clue as to where I'll rank Maltsev and Petrov, and it result from those clues that the best he can hope for is the absolute fringes of my Preliminary List.

I don't think that Maltsev to Petrov is particularly close, and apparently, those who built the top centers list didn't think so as a group either, since there were 16 spots between them. I don't think it's any slight to Petrov to say that since Maltsev was stuck with Dynamo instead of CSKA, where he didn't have nearly as strong of a team and was probably never going to get just domestic recognition. His international performances help demonstrate where his offense was as compared to his national teammates, however, with more international goals than any other Soviet player. Petrov was great, but I think Maltsev was greater.

I really think that Starshinov should be relatively close to Petrov though. I'll grant that by the time Petrov came around the Soviets were a bit farther along than in Starshinov's early years, but we also have to keep in mind that we have a very incomplete domestic voting record for Starshinov, and that it's entirely possible he'd stack up well against almost anyone if we did have it. On top of that, Starshinov had a more well-rounded game, as has been laid out in this thread, and as it's been pointed out that he should have done better than he did in the centers project. Going on that would make the gap between Petrov and Starshinov maybe 10 spots, which is noticeaby less than the gap between Maltsev and Petrov. Don't take those projects as gospel, but I have to say that overall, I think they're pretty good. I haven't ended up with many players more than a handful of ranks away from those lists when sorted by position, and we're all particularly high or low on certain players, so it's going to happen with a handful.

If Petrov was such a star (he was), he should be quite comfortably in, and I think taking everything into account in a comparison between him and Starshinov shows that they're close enough for Starshinov to ride in as well. When I say that, I'm not just talking top 220. I think Starshinov works his way into the top 200 fairly comfortably. If there's something you see about Starshinov that makes him a player that you're more bearish on than the forum as a whole, all well and good. It goes the other way, but as an example, it's looking like I might be higher on Larionov than most. But, I think that the case made by a fairly reasonable consensus around here makes a good case for Starshinov.

 

[MXD]

Not bearish. Realistic vs his circumstances and other players.

 

[Professor What]

My working list of 220 has 60 centers in it at the moment. I have a feeling that I've probably got a lower number than some other voters will. The general consensus that I'm picking up in this thread seems to be that Starshinov is top 60, which would mean that he's probably generally safely in. I'm not saying there's inherently anything wrong with being lower on him. In fact, I've already said the exact opposite. But in his case, I think a deeper dig is warranted. He wasn't going to make my list until I started catching up with what others have pointed out in this thread, and that dig changed my mind.

 

[MXD]

But in his case, I think a deeper dig is warranted. He wasn't going to make my list until I started catching up with what others have pointed out in this thread, and that dig changed my mind.

Never said anything to the contrary, but I probably need to be convinced that this isn't a zero-sum game between him and Petrov, and that the average level of his competition was higher than it actually was, before locking him in.

And when I say "locking him in", that probably involves being in the upper two thirds of my list (at this point). Holecek and Maltsev are locked in (rather safely, I might add, with the former being a sureshot amongst the five best not already Top-100ed). I wouldn't even use "locked in" to describe Petrov at this point (though in all fairness I can't see myself cutting Petrov).

 

[Professor What]

Never said anything to the contrary, but I probably need to be convinced that this isn't a zero-sum game between him and Petrov, and that the average level of his competition was higher than it actually was, before locking him in.

And when I say "locking him in", that probably involves being in the upper two thirds of my list (at this point). Holecek and Maltsev are locked in (rather safely, I might add, with the former being a sureshot amongst the five best not already Top-100ed). I wouldn't even use "locked in" to describe Petrov at this point (though in all fairness I can't see myself cutting Petrov).

I can see that we're a lot more on the same page since you gave your definition of "locked in." I consider Starshinov comfortably in on my list, but he's not in the top two-thirds. Holocek and Maltsev are currently just barely outside my top 100 (both in the top 110, actually). Petrov is dead on the boundary between my second and third thirds at the moment.

 

[VMBM]

Petrov was a 4 time leading scorer in World Championships.

5 time leading scorer in Soviet league.

Twice Soviet player of the year.

He was a real superstar.

Well the bolded was news to me! I wonder what you are referring to...

In the Soviet Player of the Year voting, Petrov was 2nd both in 1973 (just behind Kharlamov) and 1977 (behind Balderis), but he never won. It was so tight in 1973 (Kharlamov 107 pts, Petrov 104 pts), though, that you'd almost like to give him a shared award.

Petrov's statistics (especially Soviet league) are very impressive and his international accolades (four-time All-Star Center at WHCs) are easily good enough for a top 100 placement (although that's obviously too late now) imo. But why wasn't he more appreciated among the contemporary Soviet observes, that is the question. I still have no answer except that my own eye test tells me that he wasn't quite as good as his linemates/some other players on the Soviet national team. Still, Mikhailov at #86, how much further should Petrov drop? However, of the non-NHL European forwards, I consider Maltsev (he should've been in the top 100 and very close to Mikhailov imo!!!) and Martinec (though a little tougher to compare) more immediate, so to speak.

 

[Theokritos]

Well the bolded was news to me! I wonder what you are referring to...

In the Soviet Player of the Year voting, Petrov was 2nd both in 1973 (just behind Kharlamov) and 1977 (behind Balderis), but he never won. It was so tight in 1973 (Kharlamov 107 pts, Petrov 104 pts), though, that you'd almost like to give him a shared award.

Yes, Petrov was never voted Soviet Player of the Year.

For reference, the International & European Award & All-Star Voting thread has all the Voting Results (posts 10-16).

The general consensus that I'm picking up in this thread seems to be that Starshinov is top 60

I've seen 5 likely participants speak out in favour and 2 against. With 30 other potential participants and no broad discussion of this topic before, I don't think there is a general consensus.

 

[DN28]

Without digging too much into it, I don't see the gap between Maltsev and Petrov, then the gap between Petrov and Starshinov as being tight enough to justify locking in Starshinov in my ranking. Not saying he won't make it, but I have a rough clue as to where I'll rank Maltsev and Petrov, and it result from those clues that the best he can hope for is the absolute fringes of my Preliminary List.

Also, errh, what happened between the Top-50 European players list and, well, right now, to make Starshinov such a must? 25th, right between Jiri Holik and Nikolai Sologubov, doesn't exactly scream "MUST". He didn't even end up close to the likes of Kasatonov and Yakushev, players who are sure candidates to make this list, but shouldn't be considered locks by any stretch like, say, Maltsev or Martinek.

To me, it's not necessarily about freshly discovered info on his game. I (we?) knew some part of it back in 2015.

I'm more bullish on Starshinov now because of better understanding of Soviet All-Stars and 1960s USSR Hockey Federation's Top-34 Players lists.

From what we know, resp. from what @Theokritos has discovered, these all-star teams and top-X players lists were selected from a representative group of league coaches and Federation's officials/managers.. In other words, it wasn't just a one referee coming up with the PCHA all-star teams..

IMO Starshinov is 2nd best Soviet forward from the 1960s in large part because of these rankings (incl. Starshinov's also outstanding SPOTY record; SPOTY award/poll was first conducted by the sportswriters in 1968).

One poster argued against Starsh back in 2015 that his continuous USSR all-star selections were influenced primarily by weakness of center position compared to depth of Soviet wingers.. Maybe someone bought it at the time, but now we have confirmed that those Soviet all-stars didn't follow the standard NA pattern of LW-C-RW. Soviet hockey federation instead simply picked the top 3 forwards for each season..

..And again, Starshinov was there on those USSR all-star teams regularly each season - unlike all the rest of that lauded, high-end group of 60s Russian forwards such as Alexandrov, Almetov, Loktev etc. IMO Starshinov separated himself from this group, otherwise I wouldn't care for him.

Having said that, I do not want to swing the pendulum too much in the other direction. Starshinov for me is in the 190-200 range and certainly below Larionov, Petrov or Yakushev.

 

[MXD]

To me, it's not necessarily about freshly discovered info on his game. I (we?) knew some part of it back in 2015.

I'm more bullish on Starshinov now because of better understanding of Soviet All-Stars and 1960s USSR Hockey Federation's Top-34 Players lists.

From what we know, resp. from what @Theokritos has discovered, these all-star teams and top-X players lists were selected from a representative group of league coaches and Federation's officials/managers.. In other words, it wasn't just a one referee coming up with the PCHA all-star teams..

IMO Starshinov is 2nd best Soviet forward from the 1960s in large part because of these rankings (incl. Starshinov's also outstanding SPOTY record; SPOTY award/poll was first conducted by the sportswriters in 1968).

One poster argued against Starsh back in 2015 that his continous USSR all-star selections were influenced primarily by weakness of center position compared to depth of Soviet wingers.. Maybe someone bought it at the time, but now we have confirmed that those Soviet all-stars didn't follow the standard NA pattern of LW-C-RW. Soviet hockey federation instead simply picked the top 3 forwards for each season..

..And again, Starshinov was there on those USSR all-star teams regularly each season - unlike all the rest of that lauded, high-end group of 60s Russian forwards such as Alexandrov, Almetov, Loktev etc. IMO Starshinov separated himself from this group, otherwise I wouldn't care for him.

Having said that, I do not want to swing the pendulum too much in the other direction. Starshinov for me is in the 190-200 range and certainly below Larionov, Petrov or Yakushev.

My question isn't specifically asked at you, but...
When was the underlined not the case (or perceived to be the case)? Here anyways.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Well the bolded was news to me! I wonder what you are referring to...

In the Soviet Player of the Year voting, Petrov was 2nd both in 1973 (just behind Kharlamov) and 1977 (behind Balderis), but he never won. It was so tight in 1973 (Kharlamov 107 pts, Petrov 104 pts), though, that you'd almost like to give him a shared award.

Petrov's statistics (especially Soviet league) are very impressive and his international accolades (four-time All-Star Center at WHCs) are easily good enough for a top 100 placement (although that's obviously too late now) imo. But why wasn't he more appreciated among the contemporary Soviet observes, that is the question. I still have no answer except that my own eye test tells me that he wasn't quite as good as his linemates/some other players on the Soviet national team. Still, Mikhailov at #86, how much further should Petrov drop? However, of the non-NHL European forwards, I consider Maltsev (he should've been in the top 100 and very close to Mikhailov imo!!!) and Martinec (though a little tougher to compare) more immediate, so to speak.

My apologies.

• 1973, 1975, 1977, 1979 – World Championships All-Star
• 1973, 1975, 1977, 1979 – World Championships leading scorer
• 1972, 1973 – Soviet League Player of the Year
• 1973, 1975, 1977, 1979 – Soviet League All-Star
• 1970, 1973, 1975, 1978, 1979 – Soviet League leading scorer
• Order For Merit to the Fatherland 4th class
• Order of Friendship
• 2 Orders of the Badge of Honour
• 2 Medals "For Labour Valour"

This is straight from world renowned hockey information source Wikipedia.

Is "Soviet League Player of the Year" different?

Again, my apologies and thank you for the correction.

 

[Batis]

Petrov was a 4 time leading scorer in World Championships.

5 time leading scorer in Soviet league.

Twice Soviet player of the year.

He was a real superstar.

This may be nitpicking but I thought that Petrov was a 3-time leading scorer at the WHC (73, 77 and 79). He came very close to being a 4-time leading scorer though considering that he only was 1 point behind Shalimov in the 1975 WHC scoring race. So considering how strong his scoring resume is it is rather interesting that Petrov never was voted the Best Forward at the WHC by the directorate. Still considering how strong both his scoring resume and his WHC All-Star voting record is I definitely think that Petrov has one of the most impressive overall WHC resumes out of the players who did not make the top 100 list.

Here you have a breakdown of the forwards with the strongest WHC All-Star voting records outside of the ones who made the top 100 list. Note that when a player made the First All-Star Team but we don't have the exact vote count I have put that down as a Top 3 finish and when a player made the Second All-Star Team I have put it down as a top 6 finish. Then we can of course speculate on the actual voting finish based on the strenght of the players performance in the tournament.

Alexander Maltsev: 1st (1970), 1st (1972), 1st (1981), 2nd (1971), 4th (1978), 6th (1974)
Maltsev very clearly has the strongest WHC All-Star voting record among the remaining forwards. The two things that stands out to me with Maltsevs voting record is his peak in 1970-1972 where he finished 1st, 2nd, 1st over 3 tournaments and his outstanding elite longevity considering that he led the voting the first time in 1970 and the last time in 1981. The competition among forwards during Maltsevs peak 1970-1972 was also very high considering that he first was up against peak Firsov in 1970-1971 and then peak Kharlamov in 1972.

Vladimir Petrov: 2nd (1975), Top 3 (1973), Top 3 (1977), Top 3 (1979), 6th (1970), Tied for 7th (1971), 10th (1974)
As Petrovs 4 First Team selections already suggests his WHC All-Star voting record is very strong. Since we don´t have the voting results for 3 of the 4 tournaments when Petrov made the All-Star team it is difficult to know exactly how strong his voting record is though. But considering that Petrov never won the Directorates Best Forward award it does not seem that unlikely that Petrov never led the All-Star voting among forwards either. Considering that the Media All-Star vote and the Directorates vote relatively often had different selections as the top forward this is far from certain though. Whether Petrov ever led the voting or not I would still say that his voting record clearly belongs in the truly elite group. Especially considering that he also had some strong results outside of his First Team All-Star tournaments.

Vladimir Martinec: 1st (1974), 2nd (1976), 3rd (1975), Top 3 (1977), Tied for 9th (1972)
Martinec peak period in 1974-1977 is really very impressive with top 3 finishes at four straight tournaments. Four consecutive top 3 finishes is something that only Makarov and Firsov managed to beat out among forwards. The only problem with his voting record is that Martinec outside of that peak period did not add much of value compared to the other players with the strongest voting records. Still I would say that the strenght of that peak period firmly puts his voting record on roughly the same level as Petrovs.

Vaclav Nedomansky: 2nd (1974), 3rd (1969), 3rd (1970), 5th (1971), 7th (1965), Tied for 7th (1968)
Out of the players that we know for sure did not lead the WHC All-Star voting at any tournament Nedomansky clearly has the strongest voting record. Three times top 3, four times top 5 and six times top 7 is a very deep and strong voting record.

Vladimir Krutov: 1st (1987), 2nd (1986), Top 3 (1983), 5th (1985)
For being a 4-time First Team All-Star Krutovs voting record is not overly strong. Mainly due to his 1985 selection being a rather weak one with him only finishing 5th in the overall voting but still getting the LW spot on the All-Star team. Still three top 3 finishes and four top 5 finishes is a rather strong record. Especially when taking into account the strenght of his 1987 tournament where he dominated the voting.

Alexander Yakushev: 1st (1975), 3rd (1972), 3rd (1974)
Yakushev has a strong voting record for only being a 2-time First Team All-Star having three top 3 finishes including one first place finish. In 1972 Yakushev finished top 3 in the voting but missed out on a place on the All-Star team due to being stuck behind peak Kharlamov at LW. The only problem with Yakushevs voting record is that he outside of his peak in 1972-1975 did not get much voting support.

And for reference sake here are the voting records of the forwards who made the top 100 list.

Sergei Makarov: 1st (1982), 1st (1985), 1st (1986), 2nd (1987), 2nd (1989), 3rd (1981), Top 3 (1979), Top 3 (1983)
Anatoli Firsov: 1st (1967), 1st (1968), 1st (1971), 2nd (1969), 2nd (1970), 11th (1965)
Valeri Kharlamov: 1st (1976), 2nd (1972), 3rd (1971), Top 3 (1973), 4th (1969), 7th (1970), 8th (1974)
Boris Mikhailov: Top 3 (1973), Top 3 (1979), 4th (1974), Top 6 (1978), 8th (1972) Tied for 12th (1971), Tied for 16th (1970)