Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Dennis Bonvie]

Bure, Iginla, and St. Louis are in the same neighborhood on my list. Bure might be the single player coming up early that I'm looking forward to the most. We had a discussion about him not long ago, and I'm interested in how it develops with an actual ranking in mind. On the surface, he's a one-dimensional player that's so good at that one dimension that he v can't be ignored, but a deeper dig reveals more to his game. He's always going to be viewed as a scorer first, second, and third, and rightly so, but despite the fact that his game did have deficiencies, they're not necessarily as many and as great as some try to claim when trying to knock him down a peg, which I'm sure you've seen done.

Had Bure at 76th on my original list last time.

 

[Professor What]

Had Bure at 76th on my original list last time.

I don't have him quite that high, but he is just inside my top 100 at the moment.

 

[ted2019]

I'm assuming most lists include Paul Kariya?

How many people listed either Sedin?


Did anyone not include Iginla and/or Bure?

Kariya is in the middle of my top 140-160
Bure is very safely on my list
Iginla is the same as Bure
Sedin is a doubtful at this point.

 

[buffalowing88]

Bure, Iginla, and St. Louis are in the same neighborhood on my list. Bure might be the single player coming up early that I'm looking forward to the most. We had a discussion about him not long ago, and I'm interested in how it develops with an actual ranking in mind. On the surface, he's a one-dimensional player that's so good at that one dimension that he v can't be ignored, but a deeper dig reveals more to his game. He's always going to be viewed as a scorer first, second, and third, and rightly so, but despite the fact that his game did have deficiencies, they're not necessarily as many and as great as some try to claim when trying to knock him down a peg, which I'm sure you've seen done.

Bure could play a game where he cherry-picked the entire time, or he could play a game where he threw checks (albeit at times dirty). I don't think that was his MO, obviously, but Bure wasn't a wimp out there, he was in fantastic shape and stronger than his game may suggest.

 

[Professor What]

Bure could play a game where he cherry-picked the entire time, or he could play a game where he threw checks (albeit at times dirty). I don't think that was his MO, obviously, but Bure wasn't a wimp out there, he was in fantastic shape and stronger than his game may suggest.

He was deceptively physical, and yeah, there were some dirty shots that he took. But, as you say, he tended to cherry pick, so when he decided to get physical, you didn't always know it was coming. I also think his playmaking was better than he's usually given credit for. He was always shoot first, and he loved to score more than anything, but he was actually a capable passer too.

And, boy, could he skate...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He was deceptively physical, and yeah, there were some dirty shots that he took. But, as you say, he tended to cherry pick, so when he decided to get physical, you didn't always know it was coming. I also think his playmaking was better than he's usually given credit for. He was always shoot first, and he loved to score more than anything, but he was actually a capable passer too.

And, boy, could he skate...

Bure is 5th all-time in goals per game. 8th all-time in playoffs.

Incredibly, he's 11th all-time in short-handed goals despite his shortened career.

Played mostly for poor team but still managed to be a plus player (+42 RS) (+8 playoffs).

A very special player.

 

[VanIslander]

Bure is 5th all-time in goals per game. 8th all-time in playoffs.

PPG, GPG stats are useless in cross-era analyses. Worse, they're misleading.

Bure played in the highest-scoring era.

In Bure's career years for goals he scored 60, specifically to the point: He scored 60 in 1992-93 and that was only 5th among players and one of a record 14 players with 50+ goals!!!!! (He was no Cy Denneny.)

Moreover, Bure had a career-high 110 points that season and it was merely 13th among NHL skaters!

There's nothing special about his 60-goal, 110-point career-best season.

What was special about Bure in terms of hockey history was the flashy excitement of his rushes, NOT his production.

In terms of all-time greats, he belongs somewhere below another equally flashy Pavel, ... the more impactful Datsyuk! Better passer, incredibly good the 50%+ of the time he didn't have the puck (versus lollygag wait for a pass Bure, backcheck no way, pass rarely).

All things considered,... Datsyuk > Bure

Just watch how Bure's one special trait (his display of flashy talent rushing with the puck) ain't so unique. We've seen it shine just as bright in a more complete package:

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

PPG, GPG stats are useless in cross-era analyses. Worse, they're misleading.

Bure played in the highest-scoring era.

In Bure's career years for goals he scored 60. He scored 60 in 1992-93 and that was only 5th among players and one of a record 14 players with 50+ goals!!!!! (He was no Cy Denneny.)

Moreover, Bure had a career-high 110 points that season and it was merely 13th among NHL skaters!

There's nothing special about his 60-goal, 110-point career-best season.

What was special about Bure in terms of hockey history was the flashy excitement of his rushes, NOT his production.

In terms of all-time greats, he belongs somewhere below another equally flashy Pavel, ... the more impactful Datsyuk!

All things considered,... Datsyuk > Bure

Just watch:

Talk about misleading.....

Bure didn't start his career until 1991-92 so most of his career was not in the highest scoring era.

Yes, Bure scored 60 and finished 5th that season in 1992-93.

But in the next season, he scored 60 again and that led the league.

In 1999-2000 he led the league again, 58 goals (in only 74 games). Owen Nolan was 2nd to him with 44.

The next season he led the league again with 59 goals. Sakic and Jagr were the only other 50 goal scorers that year. That was the season where Florida's second leading goal scorer was Victor Kozlov with 14.

Bure led the league in power play goals one season, led in even strength goals another, led the league in game winners in another and twice led the league in short-handed goals. Also led all goal scorers with 16 in the playoffs in 1994.

I'd say he was historically significant.

 

[VanIslander]

Historically signigicant, yeah.
Top 200.

Nowhere top 5 or top 10 all time in any significant scoring stat or accomplishment.

That was my point.

 

[Professor What]

PPG, GPG stats are useless in cross-era analyses. Worse, they're misleading.

Bure played in the highest-scoring era.

In Bure's career years for goals he scored 60, specifically to the point: He scored 60 in 1992-93 and that was only 5th among players and one of a record 14 players with 50+ goals!!!!! (He was no Cy Denneny.)

Moreover, Bure had a career-high 110 points that season and it was merely 13th among NHL skaters!

There's nothing special about his 60-goal, 110-point career-best season.

What was special about Bure in terms of hockey history was the flashy excitement of his rushes, NOT his production.

In terms of all-time greats, he belongs somewhere below another equally flashy Pavel, ... the more impactful Datsyuk! Better passer, incredibly good the 50%+ of the time he didn't have the puck (versus lollygag wait for a pass Bure, backcheck no way, pass rarely).

All things considered,... Datsyuk > Bure

Just watch how Bure's one special trait (his display of flashy talent rushing with the puck) ain't so unique. We've seen it shine just as bright in a more complete package:

Let's see... Bure is one of only eight players with multiple 60-goal seasons, and every single one of those players, except maybe Esposito, could be argued as having been buoyed by higher than typical scoring rates. Yes, some of those seasons were still incredible and would have been 60-goal seasons anyway. Still, multiple 60-goal seasons is a special feat. And while his tally was 5th in 1992-93, in fairness, it has to be acknowledged that his 1993-94 total of 60 goals led the league, despite his missing eight games.

It's also not fair to brush him off as having "played in the highest scoring era." Scoring averages in the NHL cratered in his fourth season, and after a one-year rebound, followed by the dead puck era. During that very low-scoring era, he posted three 50+ goal seasons, two of which were very close to 60. He had 59 goals in 2000-01, and 58 in 1999-2000, despite missing eight games. Both of those seasons led the league. Overall, he led the league in goals three times, which puts him in some very nice company, and if his career was truly set completely in the high scoring era that preceded the dead puck era, it's very clear that he would have scored 60 at least four times, if not five.

If you think Datsyuk was greater, fine. But tell the whole story about Bure, not just snippets that fit an argument. And, for what it's worth, Bure finished slightly higher on the last aggregate, had a slightly higher peak rating, and appeared on more ballots than did Datsyuk.

 

[Professor What]

Talk about misleading.....

Bure didn't start his career until 1991-92 so most of his career was not in the highest scoring era.

Yes, Bure scored 60 and finished 5th that season in 1992-93.

But in the next season, he scored 60 again and that led the league.

In 1999-2000 he led the league again, 58 goals (in only 74 games). Owen Nolan was 2nd to him with 44.

The next season he led the league again with 59 goals. Sakic and Jagr were the only other 50 goal scorers that year. That was the season where Florida's second leading goal scorer was Victor Kozlov with 14.

Bure led the league in power play goals one season, led in even strength goals another, led the league in game winners in another and twice led the league in short-handed goals. Also led all goal scorers with 16 in the playoffs in 1994.

I'd say he was historically significant.

Looks like we cross-posted there, and it shows how crazy slow it is to make a post that long on my phone. I should have just pulled out my laptop to do it. LOL

 

[Theokritos]

Looks like we cross-posted there, and it shows how crazy slow it is to make a post that long on my phone. I should have just pulled out my laptop to do it. LOL

Gotta look into the IPs of the two of you to figure out whether you are actually different persons or one and the same guy pretending to be two.

Just kidding.

Or maybe not.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Historically signigicant, yeah.
Top 200.

Nowhere top 5 or top 10 all time in any significant scoring stat or accomplishment.

That was my point.

Two 60 goal seasons in his first 3 seasons.

Not even The Great One or Super Mario did that.

 

[Professor What]

Gotta look into the IPs of the two of you to figure out whether you are actually different persons or one and the same guy pretending to be two.

Just kidding.

Or maybe not.

You never know. I could have multiple personalities.

Just kidding.

Or maybe not.

(You don't want the third guy to show up... Just sayin'...)

 

[VanIslander]

When 14 FOURTEEN players score 50+ in a season,... scoring an even 60 (four players scored more).... 60 goals ain't so significant!

14...!

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

When 14 FOURTEEN players score 50+ in a season,... scoring an even 60 (four players scored more).... 60 goals ain't so significant!

14...!

How about when a player scores 58 and no one else scores 45?

Very significant.

No one.

 

[BenchBrawl]

How about when a player scores 58 ad no one else scores 45?

Very significant.

No one.

I loved Bure in Florida, I even had his jersey. But the modus operandi was to give him the puck as he cherrypicked at the blue line. Still significant, but must be evaluated within this context.

Clearly a Top 200 player though. The archetype of the bow-legged skater. Frog legs.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I loved Bure in Florida, I even had his jersey. But the modus operandi was to give him the puck as he cherrypicked at the blue line. Still significant, but must be evaluated within this context.

Clearly a Top 200 player though. The archetype of the bow-legged skater. Frog legs.

To me, clearly a top 100 player.

I can see him being ranked outside the top 100 by voters who feel longevity is a top priority. But no far outside.

But I hate the cherry picking thing. Always comes up for Bure, as if he is the only offender. Hell, two of the big 4 were centers who floated around the blue line when the opponent had the puck. When Bure put up his 58 goal season, he was also the top plus/minus player on the Panthers (+25).

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, was Bure really, pound-for-pound, a worse defensive player than - say - Ovechkin...? And if so, how large is that gap considered? I feel like early Bure was a better much defensive player than Ovechkin ever was, in fact...

 

[VanIslander]

The first half of Ovechkin's career he checked and hit HARD!

He still makes 200 hits a year.

Bure NEVER did that. Bure was the anti-captain. He ought to have been ashamed (i as a Canuck fan loved to watch him on tv but then i actually went to some games and saw him away from the puck (camera avoids those moments) and was disappointed, like i was with Coffey).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Among offense-only wingers, I have Sweeney Schriner and possibly Gordie Drillon over Bure.

But Bure's still comfortably on my list.

 

[VanIslander]

Bill Cowley > Pavel Bure

Cowley was as great a passer as Bure was a goal scorer (one led the league thrice in assists, one thrice in goals), more important offensively (led the league in playoff assists and points to the Stanley Cup).

The two-time Hart winner, 4-time Hart finalist ADMITTED he didn't backcheck. His honesty has been used against him on this board. Bure wasn't as forthcoming.

Only recency bias could put Bure above Cowley. Neither top 100, or both.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Hitting is not defense. Particularly the way Ovechkin hits, which was typically an after-the-fact hit...he rarely hit players to successfully dislodge the puck...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Bill Cowley > Pavel Bure

Cowley was as great a passer as Bure was a goal scorer (one led the league thrice in assists, one thrice in goals), more important offensively (led the league in playoff assists and points to the Stanley Cup).

The two-time Hart winner, 4-time Hart finalist ADMITTED he didn't backcheck. His honesty has been used against him on this board. Bure wasn't as forthcoming.

Only recency bias could put Bure above Cowley. Neither top 100, or both.

Cowley is in the top 100.

How is it wrong to use Cowley's own admission against him?

 

[VanIslander]

Ovechkin finishes his checks.

It is part of defensive play.

Watch the videos i linked. He disrupted the opposition's offense!