Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[sr edler]

Patrick Kane > Pavel Bure

I think Kane was voted in during the last project. So, if I understand this project right, he's not in the mix here. It's also a bit weird to blast Bure for lacking in defense & hits and then in the next post throw in Patrick Kane into the discussion as a comparison. Kane was/is virtually non-existent regarding both defense & hits, evidently more so than Bure. Bure, especially in the early 90s, for a smallish high scoring winger, was very physically engaging and played with an unfriendly edge. That's where most, or at least some, of his injuries came from, from the fact that he didn't shy away from traffic. He also did throw hits: on Bryan Marchment, on the Leafs, on Leetch in the SCFs, in the Olympics, et cetera, et cetera. He also threw those hits in a very violent context of the 90s goon era. Patrick Kane & Ovechkin played in the post-2nd-lockout baby powder era.

Bure also does have a defining moment in best-on-best international competition, being voted best forward in 1998, picking apart esteemed NHL alumni Jarmo Myllys in a very memorable (or dare I say iconic) contest, which no other team in the tournament figured out how to do. Kane never wowed me with Team USA in best-on-best tourneys, which perhaps feels a bit weird because you would think his slick playmaking game would fit hand-in-glove in a less dump-and-chase-ish skill-environment. Ovechkin also never wowed me on international ice.

As for defense, Bure at least was a mainstay on the penalty kill all throughout his career, even at the tail-end when he had lost most of his speed edge. That obviously doesn't mean he was great defensively overall, I don't think anyone has ever made that argument here on the HOH board (except perhaps JetsAlternate), but being a play driving all-situations player certainly means something in a direct comparison with contemporary players such as Robitaille & Shanahan, or against Gordie Drillon, et cetera. He was an all-situations player in the playoffs, in the SCFs, and in the Olympics.

Bure when he came back with the Panthers in 98–99 from his Willy Nylander-holdout had an eye-popping effect on his team, which translated well into the overall team standing. For me, being able to re-model your game after such a serious knee injury and still be so effective is a major plus in the column.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I'm assuming most lists include Paul Kariya?

Looking at the last project, I was one of just two voters who had both Paul Kariya and Pavel Bure in their top-120 but Paul Kariya slightly higher (#109 vs. #112). No one had Kariya higher than #98, but 7/32 voters had Bure at or above that mark.

I guess I can’t wrap my head around the gap in perception, given the parallels. I don’t discount the idea that we may need to be more forgiving to players from eras where star forwards were more likely to miss time (and I think we appropriately went higher on some of them last time, particularly fellow Pond of Dreams star Eric Lindros), but I’m not sure that this has been evenly applied to Bure and Kariya.

Kariya had an 87-game statline of 50-55-105 without Selanne from 1995-96 through 2000-01 - and even if it is isolated to just the Dead Puck years, he’s a 99-point (per-82) player with Selanne and a 97-point player without.

I’m guessing that’s the reason Kariya gets the short end of the stick relative to other DPE forwards with missed time, but I’m not sure if it’s a valid one. Even if he didn’t play with another great player, the numbers show he’d still be Paul Kariya.

How many more 1990s players do we need? Can’t say, but I don’t know how we could justify Lindros at #96, Bure in the 110s, and then no Paul Kariya at all. Did he need to be maimed to a greater extent so he wouldn’t have better career numbers than both of them and the What If? game would be more fun?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Problem with Kariya is that he did f*** all in the playoffs.

Bure led the playoffs in goals once.

Comparing Kariya vs. Bure vs. Lindros: Two of these are significant in the collective memory, one isn't.

(This doesn't mean he wouldn't make my Top 200)

 

[buffalowing88]

I don't even have Drillon on my list.

Drillon does very little for me. What is his "thing" that sets him apart? A few very good years and above average playoffs? I can consider era and extenuating circumstances for forwards from that time in particular, but not including him seems more than fair.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Problem with Kariya is that he did f*** all in the playoffs.

Bure led the playoffs in goals once.

Not too many Western Conference players did much in the playoffs from 1995-2002 with Dallas, Detroit, and Colorado having a stranglehold (only the 2001 Blues broke through to Round 3).

At the time the Mighty Ducks were knocked out in the 1997 playoffs, only players on the Avalanche (who faced 7th and 8th seeds) were outscoring Paul Kariya.

His only deep run came on a low-seed who faced teams that allowed 176 GA on average. Outside of that one mediocre run (that would be a gauntlet of pain on anyone’s statistics), he’s a 27-points-in-25-games playoff performer.

If he played on an Eastern Conference team in that 1995-2002 era - or prior to 1990s expansion after which a lower percentage of teams made the playoffs - we might have a decent sample to look at, but from what we have, I don’t see him as being a deficient performer in pressure situations to the point where it’s a factor relative to players who also don’t have significant playoff resumes.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Not too many Western Conference players did much in the playoffs from 1995-2002 with Dallas, Detroit, and Colorado having a stranglehold (only the 2001 Blues broke through to Round 3).

At the time the Mighty Ducks were knocked out in the 1997 playoffs, only players on the Avalanche (who faced 7th and 8th seeds) were outscoring Paul Kariya.

His only deep run came on a low-seed who faced teams that allowed 176 GA on average. Outside of that one mediocre run (that would be a gauntlet of pain on anyone’s statistics), he’s a 27-points-in-25-games playoff performer.

If he played on an Eastern Conference team in that 1995-2002 era - or prior to 1990s expansion after which a lower percentage of teams made the playoffs - we might have a decent sample to look at, but from what we have, I don’t see him as being a deficient performer in pressure situations to the point where it’s a factor relative to players who also don’t have significant playoff resumes.

OK, but beyond points, do we remember any stretch where Kariya played like a man possessed, in a winning or losing effort ? Where you feel : "Damn, such a shame that this guy doesn't have a team around him, he's really bringing it" ?

I hate to evaluate a player's playoff record by looking at long stretches. The essence of playoffs is right there and then, right now. A deep run with strong performance is a huge boost on a playoff legacy IMO. Bure and Lindros still have this (on top of being a notch above in superstardom).

 

[quoipourquoi]

OK, but beyond points, do we remember any stretch where Kariya played like a man possessed, in a winning or losing effort ? Where you feel : "Damn, such a shame that this guy doesn't have a team around him, he's really bringing it" ?

Besides when he was perhaps literally possessed and scored a really famous goal of which he has no recollection due to the concussion that preceded it, Game 6 against Phoenix is probably the big one.



Team facing elimination, and he takes 8 shots on net, scoring twice (including the OT winner). Check out 1:02:00 through 1:06:20 if you have the time. Chases down his own rebound three times, hits a post, helps create a neutral zone takeaway to keep on the pressure, takes some punishment from Keith Tkachuk, and finally scores to end a two-minute shift.

Also, I wouldn’t say Paul Kariya was less of a star than Pavel Bure. His stardom was concentrated in a series of consecutive years whereas Bure’s was interrupted by a few inconsistent years (due to injury). But overall, I don’t think the number of relevant years is all that different, and if anything, Kariya has the better Hart balloting and THN rankings.

I think Pavel Bure has had a second life post-retirement due to YouTube though.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Worth sticking around for the GWG at 2:50:00, which is one of those Karlsson-to-Hoffman or Forsberg-to-Blake passes that made all the highlight reels back in the day. They claimed after the game they practiced it all of the time.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Kariya should be on everone's list, he was amazingly talented and scored 99, 101 and 108 pts knee deep in the DPE despite being quite dimunitive. He'd be right up there today as well. If Kane and Kucherov could have the seasons they did, Kariya could as well. No doubt in my mind.

 

[rmartin65]

What’s wrong with some of you? Kariya was an incredible player. For my money, I’d rather have him on my team than Bure (though Bure absolutely deserves to be on the list as well).

The more I read this thread, the more I think I need to submit a list to help balance some of the wackiness I am reading.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Kariya should be on everone's list, he was amazingly talented and scored 99, 101 and 108 pts knee deep in the DPE despite being quite dimunitive. He'd be right up there today as well. If Kane and Kucherov could have the seasons they did, Kariya could as well. No doubt in my mind.

Obvious comparison, but Martin St. Louis? I see St. Louis as someone who maybe does have a legitimate edge over Kariya in his playoffs, but I feel largely the same about their regular season record... and maybe lean slightly towards Kariya in that regard.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

What’s wrong with some of you? Kariya was an incredible player. For my money, I’d rather have him on my team than Bure (though Bure absolutely deserves to be on the list as well).

The more I read this thread, the more I think I need to submit a list to help balance some of the wackiness I am reading.

Please do.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Glad qpq found that series...that's immediately where my mind went to...it's a shame it was video recorded with a graphing calculator, but I'm glad we have something...

For my money, Kariya was a lot closer to Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Lindros than he was to some of the lesser tier of stars (Roenick, Tkachuk, Turgeon, whoever...). I had Kariya in my original top 100 (just a whisker ahead of Bure)...

EDIT: Reviewing my list after qpq's post, it appears I'm that other poster...and I had Kariya higher than anyone else. That kind of surprises me. I'm definitely not known as someone that goes to bat for Kariya very often haha...

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'd take Modano over Kariya on my team without thinking twice. I don't see what you guys are seeing. Yeah, he was a great offensive talent, but his accomplishments are thin.

To be clear, Kariya would still make my Top 200. I'm not even sure what we're debating anymore.

A leitmotiv of my future list will be a general downgrading of wingers.

 

[VanIslander]

OK, but beyond points, do we remember any stretch where Kariya played like a man possessed, in a winning or losing effort ? Where you feel : "Damn, such a shame that this guy doesn't have a team around him, he's really bringing it" ?

MANY TIMES!

It was the running narrative on sports shows: Kariya was being wasted on a lousy Mighty Ducks team.

Kariya then got Selanne and the two did everything they could but played on an island with teammates who were out to sea.

Kariya was a superstar talent on a terrible expansion team. Don't hold his lack of team accomplishments against him. He had less than Dale Hawerchuk had to work with.

 

[VanIslander]

I'd take Modano over Kariya on my team without thinking twice. I don't see what you guys are seeing. Yeah, he was a great offensive talent, but his accomplishments are thin.

Modano's Stars struggled in Dallas until they added coach Hitchcock, Conn Smythe Nieuwendyk, offensive dmen Sydor and Zubov, then added HHOFers Belfour, Carbonneau & Hull!!!!

Imagine if Kariya had that level of talent around him.

I never for a nanosecond thought Modano>Kariya.

Let's separate (as much as we can) individual accomplishments from team accomplishments.

Modano
8th, 8th in goals
4th in assists

Kariya
4th, 7th, 9th, 10th in goals
3rd, 8th in assists

And that is with Modano having A TON MORE talented skaters to play with!

Kariya came in 2nd in Hart voting to an insanely-performing Hasek (got a staggering 96% of 1st place votes). Modano never was top 5 in Hart voting.

 

[buffalowing88]

Obvious comparison, but Martin St. Louis? I see St. Louis as someone who maybe does have a legitimate edge over Kariya in his playoffs, but I feel largely the same about their regular season record... and maybe lean slightly towards Kariya in that regard.

Please keep leaning on Kariya over St. Louis. I'm not even sure you should put those two in the same ballpark in terms of taking over a game. Kariya was one of the faces of the NHL at a time when scoring was at the lowest in a generation. He did it without anyone but Selanne (and as has already been shown, he did it without him, as well), he did it against the toughest conference, and he did it for an extended period of time. I will forever bash on St. Louis, but I don't think a list can be completed without Kariya at this point. He defined a generation of players who have largely been forgotten.

 

[MXD]

I think Kariya is being discussed a lot for a player whose career was seen by a significant part of the participants of his project and who wasn't worth significantly more than his statsheet.

 

[sr edler]

Also, I wouldn’t say Paul Kariya was less of a star than Pavel Bure. His stardom was concentrated in a series of consecutive years whereas Bure’s was interrupted by a few inconsistent years (due to injury). But overall, I don’t think the number of relevant years is all that different, and if anything, Kariya has the better Hart balloting and THN rankings.

I think Pavel Bure has had a second life post-retirement due to YouTube though.

I think what separates them is that Bure was more physically engaging plus much more of an all-situations player, otherwise they're fairly similar, yes.

To stardom though also comes external hype. I think Kariya had a lot more media hype than Bure, because the Canadian media always tries to pump up the "next big thing" from Canada. And the league, in this case, also tried to sell its new Disney movie team. Bure's hype was more grassroots with the fans in Vancouver. You can call Bure a YT player all day and everyday, I think that's funny more than anything, but I don't know what a 16 game point streak in the playoffs (second longest of all time in a single playoffs behind Bryan Trottier) has to do with YT. If we're about to shame players for scoring aesthetically pleasing goals, then what about all these Datsyukian Deke videos? Are those also second post-retirement life, or does that only apply to certain players?

Hart ballots is partly popularity contest.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I think what separates them is that Bure was more physically engaging plus much more of an all-situations player, otherwise they're fairly similar, yes.

To stardom though also comes external hype. I think Kariya had a lot more media hype than Bure, because the Canadian media always tries to pump up the "next big thing" from Canada. And the league, in this case, also tried to sell its new Disney movie team. Bure's hype was more grassroots with the fans in Vancouver. You can call Bure a YT player all day and everyday, I think that's funny more than anything, but I don't know what a 16 game point streak in the playoffs (second longest of all time in a single playoffs behind Bryan Trottier) has to do with YT. If we're about to shame players for scoring aesthetically pleasing goals, then what about all these Datsyukian Deke videos? Are those also second post-retirement life, or does that only apply to certain players?

Hart ballots is partly popularity contest.

Oh, I totally plan on scoffing when people rank Pavel Datsyuk and not Henrik Zetterberg.

What I mean by the YouTube comment is that as much as Paul Kariya had media hype in the 1990s, what he didn’t have in Anaheim was people with a VCR set to anything above EP/SLP. I think everyone in Vancouver shot 35mm film and later did 4K digital scans.

In the post-YouTube NHL, every highlight play is documented and accessible in complete clarity. But for many players prior to 2005, you almost have to be lucky that there were super-fans of a specific player that cataloged those things, because the NHL did such a poor job of ensuring archival footage of its stars.

As of yet, Paul Kariya hasn’t had fans making those half-a-million view comprehensive HD highlight reels - or even just documenting the fact that yes, Paul Kariya was a penalty killer like Pavel Bure. All he is to YouTube is off-the-floor-on-the-board. So when people say he wasn’t significant to the collective memory, I think that has more to do with his lack of passionate fans (except Mike apparently) than his on-ice performances or the numbers that came about from that.

 

[VanIslander]

Norm Ullman > Pavel Bure > Mike Modano

 

[BenchBrawl]

Oh, I totally plan on scoffing when people rank Pavel Datsyuk and not Henrik Zetterberg.

What I mean by the YouTube comment is that as much as Paul Kariya had media hype in the 1990s, what he didn’t have in Anaheim was people with a VCR set to anything above EP/SLP. I think everyone in Vancouver shot 35mm film and later did 4K digital scans.

In the post-YouTube NHL, every highlight play is documented and accessible in complete clarity. But for many players prior to 2005, you almost have to be lucky that there were super-fans of a specific player that cataloged those things, because the NHL did such a poor job of ensuring archival footage of its stars.

As of yet, Paul Kariya hasn’t had fans making those half-a-million view comprehensive HD highlight reels - or even just documenting the fact that yes, Paul Kariya was a penalty killer like Pavel Bure. All he is to YouTube is off-the-floor-on-the-board. So when people say he wasn’t significant to the collective memory, I think that has more to do with his lack of passionate fans (except Mike apparently) than his on-ice performances or the numbers that came about from that.

I love my new name "people" . I just want to say that this quote of mine should be nuanced because Eric Lindros was also part of the comparison, and he is absolutely, 100% more significant to the collective memory than Kariya (and than Bure). I might have gone overboard with Bure vs. Kariya.

I could sort of see it that Kariya was at the same level of stardom than Bure, but that's not how I remember it personally, but despite my name (people) hinting at me having a very general view of how things are perceived, I'm just a single man.

Now, even from my perspective, I'm talking about a minor difference ; Kariya a tier down, at most. Bure was more exciting and was winning goalscoring titles. Obviously everybody knew the Kariya-Rucchin-Selanne line too. So they had to be close in fame.

Anyway, let's just enjoy a Paul Kariya video:

 

[BenchBrawl]

I think Kariya is being discussed a lot for a player whose career was seen by a significant part of the participants of his project and who wasn't worth significantly more than his statsheet.

I have to agree, but I enjoyed getting some heat for "attacking" Kariya. It puts his talent back in perspective. I tend to forget just how good he was.

But ultimately, the more arguments it takes to boost a player, the more suspicious I get.

I'm not convinced he should be ranked over Bob Gainey. I know, I know.

 

[mrhockey193195]

To me, Kariya was more significant to the hockey zeitgeist of the late 90s than Selanne. I truly believe it's revisionist history (considering how their careers diverged after the lockout) to say that Selanne was more well known or well thought of (EDIT: at the time). Obviously, usually when you talked about one you would talk about the other, but I think Kariya was a hair above. He was the face of the Ducks more so than Teemu was.

Now, that's just my take on public perception at the time. As we know, perception and reality can be divergent as well. But Kariya was absolutely an elite player and HOF worthy in those years. I think he was 100% on par with Bure in terms of quality on ice & name recognition.

 

[BenchBrawl]

To me, Kariya was more significant to the hockey zeitgeist of the late 90s than Selanne. I truly believe it's revisionist history (considering how their careers diverged after the lockout) to say that Selanne was more well known or well thought of. Obviously, usually when you talked about one you would talk about the other, but I think Kariya was a hair above. He was the face of the Ducks more so than Teemu was.

Now, that's just my take on public perception at the time. As we know, perception and reality can be divergent as well. But Kariya was absolutely an elite player and HOF worthy in those years. I think he was 100% on par with Bure in terms of quality on ice & name recognition.

Weird, in memory both seemed inseparable ; they were the Anaheim duo and that was it. I know what you're getting at though, and you're probably right, but Selanne also had some residual fame (name power) from his rookie season, so it all balanced out.