Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Dennis Bonvie]

TBH, I basically threw some names up to get some more discussion going. I have no to Tardif/Hedberg/Nilsson. I am thinking about Brian Propp however.

I'm think Propp isn't any better than Barber or Larmer.

And I object to Barber on principle because of his outrageous diving.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I'm not dismissing Kovalchuk, and I agree with you that he shouldn't be brushed off, but to be honest, I think he's going to come up a bit short for me. I think that the KHL tenure is a problem since, as you say, it's hard to know what to do with it, but it's part of a bigger problem. His last NHL season before the jump doesn't hold up to the same standard as his earlier seasons, and that being followed by a five year absence from the league, followed by an underwhelming return doesn't really make my best guess as to what his KHL years represent a very good impression.

Also, for a player who's as one-dimensional as Kovalchuk has been, his peak didn't last quite as long or go quite as high as I would like to make him a more comfortable fit for the list. It's not his fault that Ovechkin came along and stole the title of the league's top goal scorer relatively early in his career, but I don't think anyone would have imagined that he'd only lead the league in goals once or never have a 40-goal season after age 26 with the hype that built up early on. He's one of those guys that feel like he should have been more than what he has been.

I agree that it feels the same way for me, that he could have been more than he was, and I can buy into him missing the final list... But then, on the other hand, I see names like Jamie Benn, Brian Propp, Bill Barber and Markus Näslund being mentioned, and I guess I don’t see how Kovalchuk wouldn’t belong in the same conversation?

 

[Stephen]

I'm not dismissing Kovalchuk, and I agree with you that he shouldn't be brushed off, but to be honest, I think he's going to come up a bit short for me. I think that the KHL tenure is a problem since, as you say, it's hard to know what to do with it, but it's part of a bigger problem. His last NHL season before the jump doesn't hold up to the same standard as his earlier seasons, and that being followed by a five year absence from the league, followed by an underwhelming return doesn't really make my best guess as to what his KHL years represent a very good impression.

Also, for a player who's as one-dimensional as Kovalchuk has been, his peak didn't last quite as long or go quite as high as I would like to make him a more comfortable fit for the list. It's not his fault that Ovechkin came along and stole the title of the league's top goal scorer relatively early in his career, but I don't think anyone would have imagined that he'd only lead the league in goals once or never have a 40-goal season after age 26 with the hype that built up early on. He's one of those guys that feel like he should have been more than what he has been.

Kovalchuk would have easily cleared the Top 200 player bar if he had just stayed in the NHL and plodded along at 30 goals, 70 points between 2014 and 2018: that's roughly a 600 goal, 1100 point career in the modern age. But the hiatus just doesn't really help his legacy.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Going through, one player who missed the Top 60 centers list who we definitely should consider is Vyacheslav Starshinov. When we did that list back in 2014, we knew that he was the best Soviet goal scorer of the 1960s, but that he wasn't nearly as good a playmaker as the more well-rounded Anatoli Firsov. (Overall, Starshinov was generally considered the 2nd best Soviet forward to Firsov in the years leading up to the 1972 Summit Series).

What's new since we did that list in 2014? We now know a lot more about Starshinov's really strong defensive game, as summarized in this profile by @Theokritos : Twenty years of Soviet Hockey: 1962 - 1982 (Index of player profiles in OP)

IMO, there's a pretty good chance he would have made the bottom end of the top 60 centers list if we had known about his two-way game at the time. As it were, he was a candidate in the last round, but didn't make the cut for the tiebreak vote.

_____________________

By the way, this is the full list of candidates for the last 3 spots of the Top 60 centers project:

Rod Brind'Amour
Guy Carbonneau
Neil Colville
Tommy Dunderdale
Bernie Federko
Frank Foyston
Duke Keats
Pat Lafontaine
Jacques Lemaire
Joe Nieuwendyk
Frank McGee
Bernie Morris
Milan Novy
Joe Primeau
Jeremy Roenick
Henrik Sedin
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Steven Stamkos
Pierre Turgeon

Round 2, Vote 15 (HOH Top Centers)

(Keats, Lemaire, and Colville ended taking the last 3 spots, Colville in the special tiebreak vote)

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'm not convinced Benn is better than certain other players who had very high but short peaks (Naslund, Bertuzzi, Lecavalier come to mind) by such an extent that he deserves consideration for a top 200 list.

Hell, I'd take 2007 Lecavalier over 2015 Benn (I think there's no way Benn outscores 2007 Crosby or Thornton) and Lecavalier isn't a guy I consider all that close to a top 200 player. Is Benn even that much better than Tavares? He barely outscored him in 2015 and Tavares is a two-time Hart finalist. Is he that much better than Taylor Hall (Hart Trophy + three top ten scoring finishes)?

Maybe I'm underrating the quality and/or length of Benn's prime. I don't really tend to think of him as too notable a player outside of his best two or three season stretch.

Yeah, but 2007 Lecavalier was literally Béliveau. If he maintained that level for 8 years he'd be a Top 25 player. I think he was my favorite center since Lemieux on that specific year ; just brought so much to the table. Maybe Getzlaf comes to mind as well, but Lecavalier scored more goals. Favorite =/= best, though he wasn't so far of that neither.

Your general point has merit though. I love Benn but his superstardom feels forced.

 

[DN28]

Going through, one player who missed the Top 60 centers list who we definitely should consider is Vyacheslav Starshinov. When we did that list back in 2014, we knew that he was the best Soviet goal scorer of the 1960s, but that he wasn't nearly as good a playmaker as the more well-rounded Anatoli Firsov. (Overall, Starshinov was generally considered the 2nd best Soviet forward to Firsov in the years leading up to the 1972 Summit Series).

What's new since we did that list in 2014? We now know a lot more about Starshinov's really strong defensive game, as summarized in this profile by @Theokritos : Twenty years of Soviet Hockey: 1962 - 1982 (Index of player profiles in OP)

IMO, there's a pretty good chance he would have made the bottom end of the top 60 centers list if we had known about his two-way game at the time. As it were, he was a candidate in the last round, but didn't make the cut for the tiebreak vote.

_____________________

By the way, this is the full list of candidates for the last 3 spots of the Top 60 centers project:

Rod Brind'Amour
Guy Carbonneau
Neil Colville
Tommy Dunderdale
Bernie Federko
Frank Foyston
Duke Keats
Pat Lafontaine
Jacques Lemaire
Joe Nieuwendyk
Frank McGee
Bernie Morris
Milan Novy
Joe Primeau
Jeremy Roenick
Henrik Sedin
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Steven Stamkos
Pierre Turgeon

Round 2, Vote 15 (HOH Top Centers)

(Keats, Lemaire, and Colville ended taking the last 3 spots, Colville in the special tiebreak vote)

Yes, Starshinov is a top 200 player and it would be a disappointment if he were not to show up in some later rounds.

He had excellent international and domestic stats, great awards collection. More importantly, he was a two-way force, physical player who distributed the puck well but who also crashed the net and thrived in the slot. Loved by coaches for his work ethic, intelligence and leadership qualities, as he was not naturally gifted by innate skills. It was all hard effort and training with him.. Very consistent player, there are no holes, no stops, in his 10 or 11-year prime. Highly respected by NA and Czech observers in his time. Goal-scoring type when looking at stats but there are a lot of quotes praising his passing skills and vision. Full package.

Starshinov was - in my opinion - a clearcut 2nd best Soviet player of the 1960s. Firsov was ranked 70th and this should secure Starshinov's top 200 status comfortably.

Era he played in is literally the only question mark around him. But at some point we need to delineate the border and say: OK, the 2nd best 1960s Euro forward is better than a 14th or whatever '..th' best 1970s Euro forward...

 

[ted2019]

Going through, one player who missed the Top 60 centers list who we definitely should consider is Vyacheslav Starshinov. When we did that list back in 2014, we knew that he was the best Soviet goal scorer of the 1960s, but that he wasn't nearly as good a playmaker as the more well-rounded Anatoli Firsov. (Overall, Starshinov was generally considered the 2nd best Soviet forward to Firsov in the years leading up to the 1972 Summit Series).

What's new since we did that list in 2014? We now know a lot more about Starshinov's really strong defensive game, as summarized in this profile by @Theokritos : Twenty years of Soviet Hockey: 1962 - 1982 (Index of player profiles in OP)

IMO, there's a pretty good chance he would have made the bottom end of the top 60 centers list if we had known about his two-way game at the time. As it were, he was a candidate in the last round, but didn't make the cut for the tiebreak vote.

_____________________

By the way, this is the full list of candidates for the last 3 spots of the Top 60 centers project:

Rod Brind'Amour
Guy Carbonneau
Neil Colville
Tommy Dunderdale
Bernie Federko
Frank Foyston
Duke Keats
Pat Lafontaine
Jacques Lemaire
Joe Nieuwendyk
Frank McGee
Bernie Morris
Milan Novy
Joe Primeau
Jeremy Roenick
Henrik Sedin
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Steven Stamkos
Pierre Turgeon

Round 2, Vote 15 (HOH Top Centers)

(Keats, Lemaire, and Colville ended taking the last 3 spots, Colville in the special tiebreak vote)

I have all for consideration except for...
Carbonneau
Roenick
Primeau

 

[Batis]

Yes, Starshinov is a top 200 player and it would be a disappointment if he were not to show up in some later rounds.

He had excellent international and domestic stats, great awards collection. More importantly, he was a two-way force, physical player who distributed the puck well but who also crashed the net and thrived in the slot. Loved by coaches for his work ethic, intelligence and leadership qualities, as he was not naturally gifted by innate skills. It was all hard effort and training with him.. Very consistent player, there are no holes, no stops, in his 10 or 11-year prime. Highly respected by NA and Czech observers in his time. Goal-scoring type when looking at stats but there are a lot of quotes praising his passing skills and vision. Full package.

Starshinov was - in my opinion - a clearcut 2nd best Soviet player of the 1960s. Firsov was ranked 70th and this should secure Starshinov's top 200 status comfortably.

Era he played in is literally the only question mark around him. But at some point we need to delineate the border and say: OK, the 2nd best 1960s Euro forward is better than a 14th or whatever '..th' best 1970s Euro forward...

Especially considering that Starshinov just like Firsov also proved his worth during the years when his prime overlapped with the top forwards of the 70s generation. As you can see below Starshinovs SPOTY voting shares compared very favourably to the voting shares of the stars of the 70s generation during the years leading up to the Summit Series.

To weigh in on the Starshinov discussion I would like to add that during some of the years leading up to the Summit Series Starshinov did in my opinion show that he could hold his ground very well against the new generation of Soviet players. Both in 1969 and 1970 Starshinov finished 3rd in the Soviet player of the year voting while competing with all of the new stars for example.

For what its worth here is the top 5 among forwards when it comes to Soviet player of the year voting shares during the 5 seasons leading up to the Summit Series (67/68-71/72).

1. Anatoli Firsov: 209,2
2. Alexander Maltsev: 160,5
3. Valeri Kharlamov: 142,8
4. Vyacheslav Starshinov: 132,0
5. (Undrafted player): 77,2

Other notable forwards.

Alexander Yakushev 23,9
Boris Mikhailov: 20,7
Vladimir Petrov: 2,5

Now the new generation of Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Petrov, Maltsev and Yakushev did not really start to hit their stride until the 68/69 season but on the other hand Starshinov was clearly out of his prime at the time of the 71/72 season. So to make it more of a head to head comparison lets only look at the 68/69-70/71 time frame.

1. Anatoli Firsov: 110,3
2. Alexander Maltsev: 88,3
3. Vyacheslav Starshinov: 77,1
4. Valeri Kharlamov: 70,6
5. (Undrafted player): 57.8

Boris Mikhailov: 20.7
Alexander Yakushev: 13,3
Vladimir Petrov: 2,5

Just to be clear I am not saying that I think that Starshinov is greater than any of Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Petrov, Maltsev and Yakushev but I personally think that it is clear that Starshinov during the 68/69-70/71 time frame showed that he could compete with the new generation of Soviet forwards.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Going through, one player who missed the Top 60 centers list who we definitely should consider is Vyacheslav Starshinov. When we did that list back in 2014, we knew that he was the best Soviet goal scorer of the 1960s, but that he wasn't nearly as good a playmaker as the more well-rounded Anatoli Firsov. (Overall, Starshinov was generally considered the 2nd best Soviet forward to Firsov in the years leading up to the 1972 Summit Series).

What's new since we did that list in 2014? We now know a lot more about Starshinov's really strong defensive game, as summarized in this profile by @Theokritos : Twenty years of Soviet Hockey: 1962 - 1982 (Index of player profiles in OP)

IMO, there's a pretty good chance he would have made the bottom end of the top 60 centers list if we had known about his two-way game at the time. As it were, he was a candidate in the last round, but didn't make the cut for the tiebreak vote.

_____________________

By the way, this is the full list of candidates for the last 3 spots of the Top 60 centers project:

Rod Brind'Amour
Guy Carbonneau
Neil Colville
Tommy Dunderdale
Bernie Federko
Frank Foyston
Duke Keats
Pat Lafontaine
Jacques Lemaire
Joe Nieuwendyk
Frank McGee
Bernie Morris
Milan Novy
Joe Primeau
Jeremy Roenick
Henrik Sedin
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Steven Stamkos
Pierre Turgeon

Round 2, Vote 15 (HOH Top Centers)

(Keats, Lemaire, and Colville ended taking the last 3 spots, Colville in the special tiebreak vote)

I have Starshinov solidly on my list. He's got star right there in his name.

The only player from this list that I have higher than him is Jacques Lemaire.

Originally Novy & Turgeon & Sedin were on my list but they have since been replaced.

 

[Professor What]

Going through, one player who missed the Top 60 centers list who we definitely should consider is Vyacheslav Starshinov. When we did that list back in 2014, we knew that he was the best Soviet goal scorer of the 1960s, but that he wasn't nearly as good a playmaker as the more well-rounded Anatoli Firsov. (Overall, Starshinov was generally considered the 2nd best Soviet forward to Firsov in the years leading up to the 1972 Summit Series).

What's new since we did that list in 2014? We now know a lot more about Starshinov's really strong defensive game, as summarized in this profile by @Theokritos : Twenty years of Soviet Hockey: 1962 - 1982 (Index of player profiles in OP)

IMO, there's a pretty good chance he would have made the bottom end of the top 60 centers list if we had known about his two-way game at the time. As it were, he was a candidate in the last round, but didn't make the cut for the tiebreak vote.

_____________________

By the way, this is the full list of candidates for the last 3 spots of the Top 60 centers project:

Rod Brind'Amour
Guy Carbonneau
Neil Colville
Tommy Dunderdale
Bernie Federko
Frank Foyston
Duke Keats
Pat Lafontaine
Jacques Lemaire
Joe Nieuwendyk
Frank McGee
Bernie Morris
Milan Novy
Joe Primeau
Jeremy Roenick
Henrik Sedin
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Steven Stamkos
Pierre Turgeon

Round 2, Vote 15 (HOH Top Centers)

(Keats, Lemaire, and Colville ended taking the last 3 spots, Colville in the special tiebreak vote)

Starshinov makes my list. I'm curious about one thing you said though. When you said he would have made the end of the centers list had his defensive game had been known, do you mean that in the sense of it having been known in the final round or from the beginning of the project? If you mean just the final round, then I'm curious as to where you think he might have landed in the aggregate, since it might have meant that his name came up sooner.

 

[edinson]

I'm really not convinced that Starshinov should be a sure bet for the top-220. I think his international play doesn't look good enough at all. One time WHC Best forward, never an all-star and for most of his international career he was competing against players who, except for Firsov, will have no chance of making this list. Can we even be sure he was the 2nd best European forward during the 60's based on that?

 

[VanIslander]

Petrov > Starshinov

I hope that's clear.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Starshinov makes my list. I'm curious about one thing you said though. When you said he would have made the end of the centers list had his defensive game had been known, do you mean that in the sense of it having been known in the final round or from the beginning of the project? If you mean just the final round, then I'm curious as to where you think he might have landed in the aggregate, since it might have meant that his name came up sooner.

The final list. If you read the discussion of the final round, Starshinov was fairly easily dismissed (by ME but also others) as a fairly one-dimensional goal scorer, which we know now is not accurate.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Petrov > Starshinov

I hope that's clear.

Well... yeah, but Petrov easily made the centers list, in a roughly appropriate place IMO

 

[VanIslander]

Talk of Starshinov in but Sundin & Larionov out?

Or is one's center list of top-200 players just THAT long!

 

[ted2019]

Talk of Starshinov in but Sundin & Larionov out?

Or is one's center list of top-200 players just THAT long!

I have all 3 in myself. In the order of....
Larionov
Sundin
Starshinov

 

[ted2019]

I'm still having trouble to find a place for Tommy Dunderdale. I'm having trouble trying to figure out where to slot him at.

 

[Professor What]

The final list. If you read the discussion of the final round, Starshinov was fairly easily dismissed (by ME but also others) as a fairly one-dimensional goal scorer, which we know now is not accurate.

I don't think I made myself very clear. What I was trying to ask was, with the additional knowledge of Starshinov's game, is the last round of voting where you think he belongs, or do you think he should have come up sooner and ranked higher than those in the last vote?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm still having trouble to find a place for Tommy Dunderdale. I'm having trouble trying to figure out where to slot him at.

Good question.

There are good discussions of the centers of that era in the last few rounds of the HOH Top Centers list.

In general, I think it goes Frank Fredrickson > Duke Keats > Frank Foyston > Tommy Dunderdale

Not sure if Dunderdale make it in the end; the cutoff might end up being between Foyston and Dunderdale.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't think I made myself very clear. What I was trying to ask was, with the additional knowledge of Starshinov's game, is the last round of voting where you think he belongs, or do you think he should have come up sooner and ranked higher than those in the last vote?

Last round or maybe two

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I have all 3 in myself. In the order of....
Larionov
Sundin
Starshinov

I can do without Larionov.

 

[ted2019]

I can do without Larionov.

Larionov sacrificed stats to play a certain style of play.

GreatestHockeyLegends said: ↑

Due to the Soviet system the center Larionov was always understated. But he was the perfect man for the job, willing to play positional, deep-defensive zone hockey and making perfect transition passes. He was the glue, both technically and psychologically, that kept the machine running.

Ready to take those brilliant passes were Krutov and Makarov, the wingers with the speed and offensive arsenal of fighter jets. They were explosively spectacular players, blessed with incredible skating and puck handling ability.

Igor Larionov was, very subtly, one of the most highly skilled hockey players we have ever seen. In some ways his best days were left behind in the old Soviet Union, but he still has excelled at the NHL level more so than any other of the veteran former Red Army teammates.​

 

[VanIslander]

Forget Starshinov if Larionov ain't on your list.

 

[buffalowing88]

I'm still having trouble to find a place for Tommy Dunderdale. I'm having trouble trying to figure out where to slot him at.

He's on the outskirts for me. That 1920 campaign seems to be his calling card, but if we're going back a century, I have a hard time justifying "very good" regular seasons otherwise, with those that I can actually see as having impacts on the sport as a whole. I'm going to assume (and potentially be very wrong) in considering that the Portland Rosebuds didn't have a playoff opponent to compare him against during his prime, but that lack of anything to stand out hurts his argument for me.

This is all tricky stuff at this point, though.

 

[buffalowing88]

I can do without Larionov.

Larionov is pretty well set in my list. I appreciate your reasoning on everything thus far, but what makes him fall short in your opinion?