Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[VanIslander]

I hope those who navel gaze realize the ATDs OVERrepresent defensemen due to team-building needs.

In terms of all-time greatness, MANY yearly top-200 ATD dmen are not as great as many non-top-200 drafted forwards. (It's just a question of supply and demand in drafts.)

 

[ted2019]

I don't have them on my list.

I just keep thinking of players that were very good but I can't fit in. I thought this would be easier than the top 100 but it really isn't, for me anyway.

I knew that this would be more difficult and I'm glad we are doing this project ( and that I suggested it). It's a lot more easier to determine a top 10,20, etc sort of list. Much, much harder to do this type of list due to the fact that there are so many different variables in something like this.

 

[VanIslander]

To my last point:

No Desjardins, Konstantinov, Cameron (three ATD top-200 picks out of positional/skill set need).

Yes to MacKay, Hawerchuk, Sundin (never top-200 ATD draft picks due to positional wealth of options!).

 

[wetcoast]

To my last point:

No Desjardins, Konstantinov, Cameron (three ATD top-200 picks out of positional/skill set need).

Yes to MacKay, Hawerchuk, Sundin (never top-200 ATD draft picks due to positional wealth of options!).

Agree on the Dmen and for Dale and Mats.

Mickey is in the mix with a boatload of other centers that are very hard to separate.

That being said I think that he has a better chance and resume than some of his PCHA centers also in the mix.

 

[Professor What]

I knew that this would be more difficult and I'm glad we are doing this project ( and that I suggested it). It's a lot more easier to determine a top 10,20, etc sort of list. Much, much harder to do this type of list due to the fact that there are so many different variables in something like this.

I didn't think that I wouldn't enjoy it, but I'm enjoying this particular project more than I expected I would. Its scope is incredibly wide, and there are so many options to choose from, which makes it an excellent educational opportunity. One interesting thing about it is that one person's "no way" could do fairly well on someone else's list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

To my last point:

No Desjardins, Konstantinov, Cameron (three ATD top-200 picks out of positional/skill set need).

Yes to MacKay, Hawerchuk, Sundin (never top-200 ATD draft picks due to positional wealth of options!).

Konstantinov was just a bad pick.

Harry Cameron has a pretty good shot at the tail end of my list.

Agree with your greater point that the ATD places a high value on defensemen and shouldn't be used as a "top players" list.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Konstantinov...? I doubt he'd make my top 400...woof...

 

[Professor What]

Konstantinov was just a bad pick.

Harry Cameron has a pretty good shot at the tail end of my list.

Agree with your greater point that the ATD places a high value on defensemen and shouldn't be used as a "top players" list.

I will say that I found the ATD threads very informative on Cameron, and as such, he's also got a shot at making my list. Obviously, I knew about his offensive capability, but I found the discussion of his defensive prowess rather enlightening. He was apparently better at that aspect of his game than I previously realized. I value those threads for informative purposes.

 

[ted2019]

To my last point:

No Desjardins, Konstantinov, Cameron (three ATD top-200 picks out of positional/skill set need).

Yes to MacKay, Hawerchuk, Sundin (never top-200 ATD draft picks due to positional wealth of options!).

I might have Cameron out of your no's. I have the same order as your yes players, but I'm sure that they are very far apart.

 

[VMBM]

But what is the most damning, Nový lost his regular spot in the CSSR's lineup in the middle of his prime. After Nový won the league scoring for 3rd time in a row, Nový found himself as a mere luxurious reserve player. He did play 9 (4+0) games at '78 WHC but with very limited ice-time. Same thing happened at '79 WHC, if I remember correctly, where he played just 5 games (0+2).

So where was the problem? There was no issue whatsoever with Nový's attitude. CSSR coaches were simply betting on club-chemistry. Tesla Pardubice line (xxx-Novak-Martinec) was set, Slovan Bratislava line (Šťastný brothers) was set, and Ivan Hlinka as the captain and natural leader in his prime was set to lead his line with whomever. Other than this, coach Karel Gut in the post-WHC 1978 interview said that he himself expected and intended to play Nový as a wing but found out that Nový is simply unable to employ his shooting qualities in any other position than center properly... That was it.

Thank you for the insight. And I can now understand a bit better why I used to consider (admittedly erroneously) Hlinka a better player.

BTW, I'm not a participant in the project, but these discussions about the Czechoslovak and Soviet players have gotten me (re)watching many available USSR-CSSR games. Hopefully I'll have some energy to create something out of that in form of a thread in the distant future.

 

[VanIslander]

I think TWO Toronto Maple Leaf forwards belong on the top 101-200 list, and one of them is spelt S-u-n-d-i-n.

Don't sleep on his international resume.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Harry Cameron would definitely make my list. If anything he is more valuable in the projects than he is in the ATDs (where he is still very valuable but underrated, so risky).

Think of him as the early Paul Coffey; just as electrifying, as much as a game-breaking talent, great playoff performer, uncoachable for whatever reason.

 

[BenchBrawl]

My top players right now would be Eddie Gerard and Serge Savard.

Hope they rank #101 and #102 straight up. Should have made the Top 100 but that ship has sailed.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

My top players right now would be Eddie Gerard and Serge Savard.

Hope they rank #101 and #102 straight up. Should have made the Top 100 but that ship has sailed.

Did Gerard play wing as well as defense?

Serge Savard, 7 time Cup winner, Conn Smythe winner, 6th all-time in plus/minus.

But, only a second team all-star once. Canadiens were 12-2 in the playoffs the year he won the Conn Smythe and several others could have won it. Most of his career he was partnered with either Larry Robinson or Jacques Laperriere. Guy Lapointe, the other member of the big three, was a first team all-star once and second team three times. Montreal was perhaps the best team ever during part of Savard's career, the rest of his time there they only won the Cup three other times.

Yes, I think you are overrating Serge a bit.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Did Gerard play wing as well as defense?

Serge Savard, 7 time Cup winner, Conn Smythe winner, 6th all-time in plus/minus.

But, only a second team all-star once. Canadiens were 12-2 in the playoffs the year he won the Conn Smythe and several others could have won it. Most of his career he was partnered with either Larry Robinson or Jacques Laperriere. Guy Lapointe, the other member of the big three, was a first team all-star once and second team three times. Montreal was perhaps the best team ever during part of Savard's career, the rest of his time there they only won the Cup three other times.

Yes, I think you are overrating Serge a bit.

Gerard played LW until about 1918, then became a top defenseman and team captain during the Ottawa dynasty. If you're asking whether he was as good at LW as he was at D, the answer would be no, but he was still good. Gerard was already known as a coveted all-around athlete when he was signed by Ottawa (to a big contract right off the bat).

Savard was ranked over both Robinson and Lapointe by Scotty Bowman and was obviously more of a defensive general, which doesn't help amass Norris and AST votes. Furthermore, Savard was a big game player perhaps more than any defenseman from his era, including Orr and Potvin (who were just better players, not necessarily better big game players).

 

[sr edler]

Did Gerard play wing as well as defense?

Yes, he was a winger first and foremost.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Gerard played LW until about 1918, then became a top defenseman and team captain during the Ottawa dynasty. If you're asking whether he was as good at LW as he was at D, the answer would be no, but he was still good. Gerard was already known as a coveted all-around athlete when he was signed by Ottawa (to a big contract right off the bat).

Savard was ranked over both Robinson and Lapointe by Scotty Bowman and was obviously more of a defensive general, which doesn't help amass Norris and AST votes. Furthermore, Savard was a big game player perhaps more than any defenseman from his era, including Orr and Potvin (who were just better players, not necessarily better big game players).

Dryden stated in his book that Lapointe was the most important of the Big Three.

Poor Larry, you'd think his last name was Fine.

 

[ted2019]

My top players right now would be Eddie Gerard and Serge Savard.

Hope they rank #101 and #102 straight up. Should have made the Top 100 but that ship has sailed.

Great minds think alike. I have Savard and Berry. I have Gerard at #94 ( decided to re-do my top 100 2018 list for the project also).

 

[wetcoast]

I think TWO Toronto Maple Leaf forwards belong on the top 101-200 list, and one of them is spelt S-u-n-d-i-n.

Don't sleep on his international resume.

I'm guessing the second Leaf forward rhymes with some obscure WWII figure?

 

[wetcoast]

Dryden stated in his book that Lapointe was the most important of the Big Three.

Poor Larry, you'd think his last name was Fine.

Agreed, there are reasons to like Serge Savard and he is definitely on the list for this project, although perhaps not at 101 or 102, but using the Scotty Bowman list isn't a very good one as his list was simply atrocious in a lot of ways.

In fact if we had a top 100 Canadian NHLers project at the time Bowman's list came out, his list would probably be returned for revisions it had such obvious problems.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Agreed, there are reasons to like Serge Savard and he is definitely on the list for this project, although perhaps not at 101 or 102, but using the Scotty Bowman list isn't a very good one as his list was simply atrocious in a lot of ways.

In fact if we had a top 100 Canadian NHLers project at the time Bowman's list came out, his list would probably be returned for revisions it had such obvious problems.

Coaches always appreciate the defensive players more.

 

[wetcoast]

Coaches always appreciate the defensive players more.

Perhaps but I'm going off memory here but wasn't Bryan Trottier 62nd or something?

I looked it up and I remembered it right.

He has Savard 20th, one spot ahead of Denis Potvin FFS.

Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

I mean it's a really crappy list.

 

[buffalowing88]

Great minds think alike. I have Savard and Berry. I have Gerard at #94 ( decided to re-do my top 100 2018 list for the project also).

I need to hear more about Gerard. I didn't have him on my list, I'm ashamed to say. There just aren't a lot of metrics or much data, to really place him. Obviously, his legacy is insane. I would love it if anyone had a more modern comp for him so I could better understand his value.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Perhaps but I'm going off memory here but wasn't Bryan Trottier 62nd or something?

I looked it up and I remembered it right.

He has Savard 20th, one spot ahead of Denis Potvin FFS.

Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

I mean it's a really crappy list.

Doesn't matter where he ranked players from other teams, the interesting part is how he ranked players he coached.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I need to hear more about Gerard. I didn't have him on my list, I'm ashamed to say. There just aren't a lot of metrics or much data, to really place him. Obviously, his legacy is insane. I would love it if anyone had a more modern comp for him so I could better understand his value.

Serge Savard with more leadership and offense.