Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

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Dennis Bonvie

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Yeah, Petrov is interesting to me, but I didn't feel like I could confidently get a good read on his game through out...there were times where I was like, "meh, this is just a close range scorer and not super discernible from the other second-tier players on this team..." and then a couple shifts later, I'll marvel at some precision pass made from the boards into the interior and it turned out to be Petrov...so I thought it would be better just to catch him next time around than to fumble through it. Balderis stole the show for me anyhow...

I agree with all the rest of that too...particularly the Golikovs, who I had virtually no knowledge of prior to this...they had a strong showing, read off each other predictably well...maybe they're the senior version of our Chris and Peter Ferraro of World Junior fame haha

I'm trying to think of who is left pre-1980 that I didn't get good eyes on yet...I think Petrov, Mikhailov, and Yakushev might be it...but I'm open to others that may qualify...I also haven't bothered with any Swedes or Finns or Kuhnhackl, I guess there's gotta be a couple there worth a watch too...

I was always impressed by Petrov.

Its probably the difference between someone who watches the games carefully (you) and someone who's just watching for fun & interest (me). I see the special plays but not the meh moments.
 

MXD

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I have a few possible borderline defensemen.
Pat Stapleton
Ken Reardon
Tom Johnson
Larry Murphy
Allan Stanley
Ebbie Goodfellow
Lester Patrick
Art Coulter

Emphatic yes for Ebbie Goodfellow (and remember that he's a better player than his ranking on the D-Men list would indicate, since he spent a significant part of his career as a Center)
The other ranges from "Probably" to "Maybe", except for Pat Stapleton who is probably a "I don't think so".
 
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Michael Farkas

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Stapleton was a talent...I think if you're considering Tremblay, then you might well have Stapleton ahead of him...but if nothing else, he should get strong consideration...

He really helped the Blackhawks offense by giving them a really good outlet passer...in fact, he might have been their best outlet passer...as Pilote carried the puck a little bit further up the ice...Stapleton was mostly back there playing QB from his own zone. Bobby Hull was particularly a beneficiary of this, as he finally found a d-man that could hit him in stride for him to rev it up through the NZ.

Hull was gonna score anyway, of course...but after a 39 goal season in 1965, they add Stapleton in '66 and Hull zips up to 54 goals and 97 points, he'd have four straight 30+ ES goal campaigns in a row, leading the league in goals overall each year. With Pilote and Stapleton on separate pairings, it gave Chicago additional matchup and breakout options...so even after taking it on the chin when they traded Esposito away, they bounced back quickly to resume being a potent offense...
 
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DN28

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Thoughts on 1 already mentioned player who is interesting to talk about but who at the same time has some fundamental flaws in his CV - Helmuts Balderis.

Whoever puts the greatest Latvian player all-time on his list should know that Balderis' case rests primarily on his impressive Soviet league stats, since Balderis' international career left a lot on the table. Despite his talent, he didn't accumulate many individual awards. He finished 3rd in Soviet league scoring in 1975, but his breakout season occured in 1976 (7th or 8th in SPOTY voting). Here, he showed decent scoring on both levels as he finally started to play for USSR team on the big stage. Still, clearly below a top-tier of Euro wingers such as Kharlamov, Yakushev, Shalimov or Martinec at this point.

Hit the peak season in 1977 (1st in SPOTY), top scorer in the league, scored a lot internationally as well. Won Directoriate best forward award, WHC 77 All-Star winger. Excellent season for sure, but I'd point out that this happened at a low-point of Soviet hockey. Soviets finished 3rd or 4th at Canada Cup in the beginning and then finished only 3rd at WHC 1977 at the end. Milan Nový over in Czechoslovakia had just as good a season as Balderis, maybe a little better.

From this point, Tikhonov brings Balderis to CSKA, where he suddenly stops being the main guy, and playing in CSKA lower lines and with (I assume..) less PP time caused his production to plummet. Balderis league scoring is now twice as small as in 1977 and while his WHC 1978 productivity is still solid, he got outvoted by his two Soviet RW teammates Mikhailov and Maltsev by the media members. Same thing happened in SPOTY voting, Balderis finishes solidly 5th but behind Mikhailov and Maltsev.

In 1979, Balderis' domestic scoring improves (6th), but he's still just fourth in CSKA team... I think Balderis' performance at Challenge Cup was pretty good but his WHC '79 showing was no better than average. More importantly, Balderis received zero votes at the end of the season's SPOTY / Izvestia voting. 14 Soviet players other than Balderis obtained at least a vote... 1979 was a strong season for Euro wingers, RWers especially - Mikhailov, Makarov, Martinec and Marian Stastny had all better seasons than Balderis.

Balderis in 1980 continues to improve his league scoring - now finishes 2nd overall behind Makarov - but to no avail. Balderis' 9 points in 7 games won't help Soviets to overcome the upset by young US team at the '80 Olympics... Problem with Balderis was that he as a player didn't contribute much outside offense, and when he didn't deliver some clutch scoring, there wasn't much left to admire of. Both Soviet and European sportswriters acknowledged this again when Helmuts did not get a vote in Izvestia voting (at least 15 Euros did) and when he got a one measly vote in SPOTY voting (oficially 16th best USSR player in the 1980..).

After this, Balderis returns to Dinamo Riga and stops playing for the National team. I'm not sure about details here - was this more a Balderis' initiative or got Tikhonov fed up with Balderis' cherrypicking? I have no idea. Only sure thing was that the animosity between the Latvian and the coach grew out of proportion.

Balderis' career from here onwards followed a familiar pattern. He remained a top Soviet league scorer (7th in 1981, 10th in 1982, 1st in 1983, 3rd in 1985) but remained irrelevent in international competition. Balderis spent the 1980s in a role he was most comfortable in - a bad team's star forward, for whom the rest of his teammates work for.

Only after Balderis' scoring title in 1983 (the only 1980s Soviet scoring champion not named Makarov!) Viktor Tikhonov found himself in a situation where he re-included the Latvian into National team. There was nothing special about Balderis' WHC '83 comeback though. He posted respectable numbers again, but was left off 1st and 2nd WHC All-Star teams anyway.

Balderis earned some votes in the SPOTY voting only in 1985 (10th overall), nothing more in the 80s... In the end, even if you'd rather take his league scoring as the best indicator of his "true" level of play, where does it put Balderis globally?

There was some stiff competition just among the European RWs in the 1st half of 1980s.. You had Makarov there all the time, you had Maltsev going strong in early 80s, you had Shalimov as a member of that famous Spartak line (Kapustin-Shepelev-Shalimov) that greatly proved itself against top NHLers as well, you had Drozdetsky's career peak in 1984 winning the SPOTY that year, you had Martinec having fairly decent 1980 and 1981 seasons, you had Jiří Lála having excellent first half of the 1980s himself, you had Jari Kurri over in NHL scoring at ppg level right from 1981 onwards, you had Marián Šťastný in Quebec, you had some good seasons of Anders Hedberg...

I'll repeat what I've said in the beginning, Balderis' case lies in his consistent and stable scoring production primarily on the domestic level. His individual trophy collection is otherwise very thin. Throughout his career, Balderis struggled to find himself useful enough in a loaded, talent-heavy USSR roster. This raises a question mark about Balderis' adaptability; especially compared to dozens of players who were able to strike balance between their play on two different levels (USSR and clubs). Even within Balderis' own generation, you'd find forwards such as Sergei Kapustin or Viktor Shalimov who ended their careers with lower points but with higher degree of admiration from contemporary hockey observers and with broader career credentials.

This project will suffer no damage if Balderis doesn't appear in the discussion. He is a top 200-250 player.
 

MXD

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Stapleton's offensive numbers in the playoffs are actually better than Tremblay's.

Take out Tremblay's first four playoffs and their numbers become very, very similar.
(And Tremblay still has the bigger sample size).

And I really need an explanation as to why his WHA numbers are so low (especially compared to Tremblay).
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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Take out Tremblay's first four playoffs and their numbers become very, very similar.
(And Tremblay still has the bigger sample size).

And I really need an explanation as to why his WHA numbers are so low (especially compared to Tremblay).

Is that some kind of joke?

I have Tremblay ahead of Stapleton in my rankings. Was just reporting the facts of the matter.
 

MXD

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Is that some kind of joke?

Why would that be a joke?
It totally makes sense to do this, especially as :
- Tremblay played A LOT more playoff games than Stapleton
- Tremblay still has more playoffs games than Stapleton even if you take out these less productive seasons
- Stapleton didn't even play regularily in the NHL during that period
- Stapleton didn't even play a single playoff game during that period.

It's like, this comparison would make Tremblay look worse, relative to Stapleton, because he was playing in the NHL, while Stapleton wasn't.
 

Michael Farkas

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Great write-up and context, @DN28 - thanks for that. I guess that will go a long way to circling us back to the Ilya Kovalchuk conversation...or for that matter, Alexei Kovalev...now, I don't expect Kovalev to appear on (m)any lists, but if we were making a list towards the "most talented 200 players ever" it makes you wonder...for some reason I couldn't get the Kovy's out of my head when reading the description of Balderis...
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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Why would that be a joke?
It totally makes sense to do this, especially as :
- Tremblay played A LOT more playoff games than Stapleton
- Tremblay still has more playoffs games than Stapleton even if you take out these less productive seasons
- Stapleton didn't even play regularily in the NHL during that period
- Stapleton didn't even play a single playoff game during that period.

It's like, this comparison would make Tremblay look worse, relative to Stapleton, because he was playing in the NHL, while Stapleton wasn't.

Since when do we throw away FOUR playoffs for a player?

Its not like it was 4 playoff seasons when he was washed up. He played them, he owns them.
 

MXD

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Since when do we throw away FOUR playoffs for a player?

Its not like it was 4 playoff seasons when he was washed up. He played them, he owns them.

You do so when you're comparing the per game output an NHLer who played in the playoffs prior to hitting prime to a player who couldn't cut it in the NHL during that same period.

Or else you're penalizing the NHL'er for being, well, good enough for the NHL, but not good enough to be a go-to option yet.

I wouldn't be advocating this if Stapleton would've been playing in the NHL AND making the playoffs, and if he was (significantly) younger -- both are the same age. Actually, the ONLY way to compare these two players offense in the playoffs is to disregard what Tremblay did before Stapleton played a single playoff game.
 
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MXD

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In part, because Boston didn't realize what they had...in 1965 (surely one of the greatest years of minor league hockey ever, one could reasonably claim) Stapleton just about led the entire WHL in scoring...

Well, they had him play 90 games over two seasons a few years before. Stapleton was also picked in inter-league draft (whatever that was) the day after he was traded, so the Bruins aren't the only one who missed on him.
 

Michael Farkas

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I think MXD is being sarcastic...

But if he's not, DB was referring to his own quoted post, not MXD's explanation of removing playoff from JCT haha

It just reads funny in line...
 
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