Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[BenchBrawl]

Toews' +/- numbers on the road are unusually good. I would like more in-depth explanation for this fact.

From 2008-2009 to 2014-2015.

Home +/- for Chicago players

Road +/- for Chicago players

I've heard it said that having a dominant two-way center on the road enables a coach to control match-ups, thus destroying the home team advantage for the opponent (forcing him to sit his best players or play them against Toews OR Keith). Would need to revisit all this. If this is roughly true, then Toews is way more useful than usually thought and becomes the straw that stirs the drink.

My starting position is that Jonathan Toews should easily make the Top 200 as the leader and #1 center of a dynasty, along with the high level of respect he has from his peers. Then many signals, like his great FO%, his incredible +/- on the road, his two-way reputation, adaptability, playoff offense, etc, are reinforcing that position until proven otherwise. Furthermore, there was no real separation between him, Kane and Keith, as those teams were winning championships.

For similar reasons, Jacques Lemaire would make my list (if I decided to participate).

 

[Michael Farkas]

Lemaire was in my top 100 I think...

 

[BenchBrawl]

Lemaire was in my top 100 I think...

He was in mine too IIRC. Or at least in my Top 120.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He was in mine too IIRC. Or at least in my Top 120.

Me too.

 

[wetcoast]

Toews is (was, at least) a good player, so he definitely contributed to them being a good team. But, this list is going to include two of his teammates. How many other players on this list are going to be the 3rd best player on their team, particularly in the post-expansion/cap era?

A good player on a good team doesn't get a "goodness multiplier" that makes him great. It means that he was a good player in a good situation.

There are some players already on the top 100 list that are the 2,3,4 or less best players on there teams already and there will be more in the top 200 project.

If you are doing a list you will find this to be true.

Toews and Bergeron also have some great success internationally to draw from as well.

 

[ted2019]

Neither of those guys have the production to make the list on production alone (and plus/minus is not a stat I particularly care for, so that is a non-starter).

A Selke and a Conn Smythe are nice... but hardly THAT special. Lots of players with one Selke aren't making this list. Same thing with the Conn Smythe- lots of players with one won't be making the list. Hell, O'Reilly won his Selke and Smythe in the same season, and won the Cup that year for good measure, and he won't be making it. 4 Selkes, on the other hand, is historical.

Toews' case is almost purely based on his team success. And it shows- when his team isn't good, he is not talked about as one of the stars in the league.

I would take Bergeron & Kopitar over Toews right now.

 

[ted2019]

For those who are participating. Who are your #95-100? I have the following.
95. Norm Ullman
96. Brian Leetch
97. Toe Blake
98. Pavel Bure
99. Nels Stewart
100. Duncan Keith

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

I've heard it said that having a dominant two-way center on the road enables a coach to control match-ups, thus destroying the home team advantage for the opponent (forcing him to sit his best players or play them against Toews OR Keith). Would need to revisit all this. If this is roughly true, then Toews is way more useful than usually thought and becomes the straw that stirs the drink.

That could be part of it, but I think usually what happens is that an elite two-way center takes tougher matchups and more defensive responsibilities at home, which ends up decreasing their home ice production. This is why I would say that their road performance is often more reflective of their actual ability (this is not always the case, some teams have different styles of play on the road or continue to try to run matchups even without last change, but just in general).

Look at playoff EV scoring at home and on the road for the Chicago Big 3 over the same period, for example:

Home: Kane 45, Toews 28, Keith 28
Road: Kane 35, Toews 31, Keith 23

Scoring at a higher rate on the road is not at all typical, but Toews did it in both the playoffs and the regular season over this period (actually outscoring Kane 160-153 in the regular season at EV on the road). Considering that Keith has pretty normal home/road splits both offensively and in terms of plus/minus in both the regular season and playoffs, it certainly appears that the main difference was entirely the deployment of Toews, who was likely freeing up his teammates offensively at home, and then on the road when the usage/matchups were more even the offensive gap narrowed considerably.

Kane is going to end up with the better career, but I've never been on board with the idea that he was more valuable to the 2010-2015 Blackhawks than Toews. If Dave Keon is in the top 100, it doesn't seem crazy to me that Toews would be easily in the top 200.

 

[wetcoast]

Figuring that one third of the players on the ice at any one time are wingers would extrapolate that to a #231 ranking with all players. Not a perfect system of estimation, of course, but it suggests that he should be expected near the cutoff point on a lot of lists.

My guess is that he will be a bit lower given the number of excellent centers that didn't make the list and the shift in the last 40ish years to centers being dominating the best forward groups which also can be applied to early days with the rover/center position as well to some degree..

 

[ted2019]

The year Toews became captain in Chicago, they went from a non-playoff team to losing in the conference finals. He was 20 years old. The next season the Hawks won the Cup and Toews was the Conn Smythe winner. I would argue he was every bit as important as Kane & Keith in turning the Blackhawks into a great team.

The Blackhawks also had already an incredibly deep team in 2007-08 and just missed the playoffs. Toews became captain the following season was just a happenstance in his favor. They were a very young team that was starting to gel. Toews was important, but certainly not as important as Kane & Keith.

 

[wetcoast]

He was in mine too IIRC. Or at least in my Top 120.

Lemaire should be on most top 150 lists even with his career in the lopsided 70s for the most part.

The gap between Lemaire, Bergeron, Toews and Koptiar isn't that great really but there are alot of other great centers to consider as well as non NHL and early players as well.

 

[VanIslander]

The gap between Lemaire, Bergeron, Toews and Koptiar isn't that great really but there are alot of other great centers to consider as well as others

Agreed.

They may all be 200-300th best all time.

They are on my long list of candidates but none are gonna be top 150 consideration, hence marginal candidates at best.

 

[wetcoast]

Agreed.

They may all be 200-300th best all time.

They are on my long list of candidates but none are gonna be top 150 consideration, hence marginal candidates at best.

Bergeron was the lowest of the four on the most recent top 100 aggregate list.

Lemaire 134
Toews 140
Kopitar 162
Bergeron 164

and 3 of them have added to their resumes since the 2 years the project was done.

But I do agree the 150ish range is what they are most likely looking around.

 

[VanIslander]

There are soooo many great centers outside the top 100!!

We also have to consider wingers, defensemen and goalies.

*Note: pre-internet, we used to draft coaches, ranking them with players in our picks. Nowadays only the ATD does.

 

[wetcoast]

The Blackhawks also had already an incredibly deep team in 2007-08 and just missed the playoffs. Toews became captain the following season was just a happenstance in his favor. They were a very young team that was starting to gel. Toews was important, but certainly not as important as Kane & Keith.

They were "deep" in part to adding 2 first line players in Kane and Toews and even with them very few if any could predict that the team would gone on to have 3 SC's in the next 7 years.

It's arguable as to the "importance and rank" of their big 3 but they had a big 3 to be sure.

To me Toews is the modern day version of Niedermeyer in that he is a "winner" and after all in the top 100 project there was a premium on winners right?

Also the salary cap probably hurts the legacy of that Black Hawks team, even so Keith, Kane and Toews all are on my top 200 list and Hossa is a maybe for the top 220 hard to determine.

 

[wetcoast]

There are soooo many great centers outside the top 100!!

We also have to consider wingers, defensemen and goalies.

*Note: pre-internet, we used to draft coaches, ranking them with players in our picks. Nowadays only the ATD does.

Sure we have to consider other positions but it is the top 200 hockey player list and the top 200 should be the top 200 regardless of position.

At least that's the way I see it.

 

[VanIslander]

Don't look at position. Don't look at nationality.

That is sooo 20th Century. Love it!

 

[seventieslord]

Hmm, I estimate that 8 out of 10 people are higher on Toews than I am, and still.... I don't see how he could miss a top-200 list. He's pretty comfortably in.

 

[VanIslander]

Can we all agree a list without Mats Sundin should be thrown out?

(By no means am i a Leafs fan of teams the last half century. Ugh. Huge Habs fan here but hockey history got me interested in their dynasties and early years. In my 40+ years of memory of NHL hockey i've watched, not a single Maple Leaf stands out like he did. Wasted on a crap team. Sigh.)

 

[seventieslord]

Can we all agree a list without Mats Sundin should be thrown out?

(By no means am i a Leafs fan of teams the last half century. Ugh. Huge Habs fan here but hockey history got me interested in their dynasties and early years. In my 40+ years of memory of NHL hockey i've watched, not a single Maple Leaf stands out like he did. Wasted on a crap team. Sigh.)

Thrown out? No, definitely not. Would I strongly agree he belongs on the list? Yes. As the holder of many minority and even fringe opinions, you should agree that it's at least defensible to have him off the list and those who think he doesn't belong should be respected.

 

[MXD]

Can we all agree a list without Mats Sundin should be thrown out?

(By no means am i a Leafs fan of teams the last half century. Ugh. Huge Habs fan here but hockey history got me interested in their dynasties and early years. In my 40+ years of memory of NHL hockey i've watched, not a single Maple Leaf stands out like he did. Wasted on a crap team. Sigh.)

There are players about whom this "suggestion" could apply, and Mats Sundin is definitely not one of of them.

 

[VanIslander]

So i can leave off Karlsson, Bure (neither knows how to play without the puck) an' Tony Esposito (so overrated due to great teams, he the weak link).

*whew*

Thanks man.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I would definitely not throw out Sundin either...

Edit: which no one said, I just can't read

 

[VanIslander]

I would definitely not throw out Sundin either...

Lol.

No one is saying that.

Re-read.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Heh...whoops...my apologies...

I don't agree with that premise either though...I'm a big Sundin fan though...