Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

[Canadiens1958]

I think you are way overrating Robinson's fighting ability.

Compared to Kevin Morrison and two others who beat Dave Schultz badly in the MMJHL this is true. But no one mentioned is eligible.

 

[ImporterExporter]

That'S the thing : Sidney Crosby was great against the Caps... but that isn't QUITE how he got to 21 points in 12 games!

Haha, touche.

 

[bobholly39]

"I don't do so myself, because the sole reason why I'm participating is to discredit active players."

... Says and thinks absolutely no one.

And understand that I'm actually arguing against a player that I am, at this point, considering the best skater in this group. There are things that move the needle : to me, scoring lots of points against a VERY suspect team isn't one of them. If anything, his performance against the Caps probably adds more.

It's just that going into the playoffs that year Philly had the 16th best defense in the league vs Cap's 15th best.
Philly goalies had better stats than Capitals goalies.

Obviously Washington "played" better in the playoffs, we all saw that. But can't that be said of every team who wins vs loses?

I just don't get how you can say that Crosby only scored so many points (21 in 12) because Philly was garbage - but then in the next post give him full marks for 8 points in 6 games vs the Caps.

I think he should get full merit for 21 points in 12 games. Maybe if Philly had been last place defensively, or even bottom 5, that line of reasoning would have more merit.

Going back to Ageless's original question. 21 points in 12 games is a pretty great run - but as to how much it adds to Crosby's resume - some, not much. It's his 5th best run (4 cup runs) - and a player's 5th best run can only add so much to an overall resume after all.

 

[seventieslord]

Oh, I've never suggested that scoring wasn't much lower on the whole during part of Morenz's career.

That doesn't change the fact that others routinely led the charge for Montreal, namely during their back to back Cup runs in 30 and 31.

26-27 Morenz is shut out over 2 games vs a 34 year old Frank Nighbor. 10 years his senior and Nighbor put the clamps down.

As you said, in 27-28 Morenz and the Habs got upset by the Maroons. Scoring was obviously very low but Morenz did nothing in the 2 games that series. Albert Leduc led team with 2 points. And let's not look past Morenz's 12 PIMs in 2 games. Certainly not helping your team when you are in the box 6 minutes a game....

28-29 Morenz again completely shut down in 3 games, all losses. 0 points and 6 PIM's. Joliat led team with 2 points.

29-30 they win their fist of back to back but Morenz is outscored by Lepine, Wasnie and Leduc. Morenz and Mantha have 3 points. In the Cup final he had 1 point in the 2 games. Certainly an upset given how dominant Boston was but 4 other Habs scored more. The semi finals Howie did nothing against NY being shut down by Boucher. His best performance came in the 1st round.

30-31 scoring increases greatly and yet Morenz again isn't really near the top of scoring for Montreal during their Cup win. 5 points in 10 games. Johnny Gagnon led all scorers with 8 points in that span. Mantha and Lepine had 6. Guess who dominated in the Cup finals? Not Morenz. He had 1 measly point in 5 games. Gagnon stole the show with 6. Lepine had 4, Mantha 3, Wasnie and Joliat 2 apiece. Morenz did his damage in the first round vs Boston.

31-32 Morenz again is weak. 1 point in 4 games. Behind 5, count em 5 other Habs in scoring in a first round exit against....Frank Boucher. I keep saying Boucher was certainly a better defensive C and it's results like this that lend credence to that fact.

That's a 6 year stretch that looks very, very bleak to me despite 2 Cup wins. I'm sorry but unless somebody can produce legitimate (beyond a few newspaper clippings) proof that Morenz was otherworldly defensively or used in some sort of strange manner, there is nothing to conclude other than he was poor to average and other Habs stepped up and carried the load.

I'm not that high on Morenz either, but can you really say he "did nothing"? Would you ever say Crosby "did nothing" in two straight playoff games where he was held off the scoresheet? Think back to 2016 - there were probably three occasions where he was pointless for two games. Did he "do nothing"? Or was he creating chances, carrying his linemates, being the most dangerous player on the ice, just like always, except he didn't get a point? You know the answer, because you saw those games yourself, but you don't seem willing to entertain that Morenz could have been seen in a similar light at that time. In a low-scoring, tight checking environment, we can see that this happens, even to the best players.

Over the five years you're referring to, Morenz wasn't exactly a passenger on Montreal - yes, this guy and that guy steps up one year or the other, but on the aggregate, Morenz was right in the mix for the title of best performer: Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Yeah, I'd like to see some distance there. I'd like to think that if Lepine has 10 and Joliat 9, then Morenz should have 12-13 in that time, and percentage wise that represents a big difference from nine, but also we're talking about 3 or 4 points, in 25 games. So many little things can happen that can turn a good performance into a zero point night, as you are well aware (think puck luck). Multiply that by about eight, and well, here we are with Morenz.

This is not meant to provide a robust defense of Morenz' playoff record - it's not special. But it's one of those cases where you kinda have to step back to take a wider look. I've heard criticism of Messier for not being his team's leading scorer outright in the playoffs of 1990 or 1991. But step back and look at the entire post-Gretzky period, and it becomes clear who was their best player over this time. Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

It's the exact same with Crosby too - one year it's Kessel, next year it's Malkin, next year it's Guentzel. But look at all three seasons as a whole, and who was the best? Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[MXD]

The bottom line his : the thread reads much better and the discussions are much more constructive when needless hyperbole is left out.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Now I regret not doing a recap of every playoff game of Morenz' career.Too late for that now.If I learned anything by reading over a hundred game descriptions from the 1920s is that you cannot just check the stats and come to a definitive conclusion about who played best.And this isn't just a Nighbor special case, it's across the board.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I think Hull has a shot to add 1 or 2 more if he doesn't jump to the WHA...he has an undeserved Smythe (if Crosby gets slagged for being the 2nd best player in the playoffs in 2016 then Ovechkin should for being 3rd best in 2018)...

To play devil's advocate..."When Hasek was THE man in Buffalo, they didn't win anything" (even though Jagr was a best man in 1992) - yet we're falling all over ourselves to put him in the 10 items or less line...

Jagr's the better player, more dynamic, more adaptable, better playoff resume, better international resume, better longevity, was the best player in the world for half a decade...he could be the best in goals and best in assists...and he played on teams far worse than Ovechkin and dragged them into the playoffs and he could play with inferior linemates to try to push depth to lower lines (Jan Hrdina, Kip Miller, etc.)...Ovechkin always with Backstrom or Kuznetsov, almost never used to bring along young or incomplete talent (like Andre Burakovsky or Jakub Vrana), instead insulated with more defensive conscience players (Mike Knuble, Chris Clark, etc.)...

It's definitely not Ovechkin time for me.

What is this?

Crosby was 11pts behind the leader, not even PPG, a minus player. OV was the top goal scorer, 5pts behind the leader, PPG+, plus player, top 5 in hits. Stop comparing them, OV's run was way better.

Jagr wasn't a better player, OV's peak is just as good. OV's goal scoring and 200+ hits make up for Jagr's bigger PPG separation from peers. One thing Jagr was better at was quitting on teams. More adaptable? Like when he whined and sulked when asked to change his game? Better playoff resume? Where's his smythe? Has he ever passed the 2nd round when he was the main man? True he was the best player in the world for a half decade. But wasn't OV the best player from 05/06-09/10 (he was better than Crosby in 4/5 seasons)? If he was the best in goals where's his rocket? OV always plays with Backstrom/Kuznetsov? Were they in the league when OV scored 98 goals in his first 2 seasons? And I'm sure rookie Backstrom's (who didn't play with OV until the 2nd half of 07/08) 69pts played a huge role in OV's 65 goal/112pt season.

Hart finishes
OV: 1,1,1,2,2,6,6,9 (13 seasons)
Jagr: 1,2,2,2,2,3,4,7 (24 seasons)

Jagr has an extra nomination, but OV has 2 extra wins. Both have 8 top 10 finishes but Jagr played 10 more seasons. Definitely edge to OV.

Peak season: coin flip Ovechkin 07/08 or Jagr 98/99
Extended peak: coin flip OV 07/08-09/10 or Jagr 97/98-99/00 (not including Lemieux boosted 95/96 or 00/01)
Prime: probably Jagr, but OV is still going strong
Playoffs: Ovechkin
International: Jagr
AST: 7-7 1st, 4-1 2nd---11-8 OV
Awards: 16-9 OV
--OV has won every possible realistic award (ross, Rocket, hart, lindsay, smythe, calder) while Jagr has no rocket, no smythe, no calder

Ovechkin is with Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux as the only players with 3 harts and a smythe. He has the most goal scoring titles in history and will go down as the GOAT goal scorer. He is ahead of Jagr at this point.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Can we start over? I want a chance to vote Ovy in the first round...I mean, 200+ hits! That more than makes up for Jagr being the best player in the world for half a decade...how can I say no to that?

In all seriousness, the more of those types of posts I see, the more I see these types of posts, the more it pushes me towards Ovechkin being near the bottom of my ballot this round...not because they're annoyingly one-sided, but because it's like watching a movie trailer, it being very underwhelming and going "wait, this was the two minutes that were supposed to pull me in? I can't imagine another two hours of that...no thanks..." #200hits

 

[ResilientBeast]

What is this?

Crosby was 11pts behind the leader, not even PPG, a minus player. OV was the top goal scorer, 5pts behind the leader, PPG+, plus player, top 5 in hits. Stop comparing them, OV's run was way better.

Jagr wasn't a better player, OV's peak is just as good. OV's goal scoring and 200+ hits make up for Jagr's bigger PPG separation from peers. One thing Jagr was better at was quitting on teams. More adaptable? Like when he whined and sulked when asked to change his game? Better playoff resume? Where's his smythe? Has he ever passed the 2nd round when he was the main man? True he was the best player in the world for a half decade. But wasn't OV the best player from 05/06-09/10 (he was better than Crosby in 4/5 seasons)? If he was the best in goals where's his rocket? OV always plays with Backstrom/Kuznetsov? Were they in the league when OV scored 98 goals in his first 2 seasons? And I'm sure rookie Backstrom's (who didn't play with OV until the 2nd half of 07/08) 69pts played a huge role in OV's 65 goal/112pt season.

Hart finishes
OV: 1,1,1,2,2,6,6,9 (13 seasons)
Jagr: 1,2,2,2,2,3,4,7 (24 seasons)

Jagr has an extra nomination, but OV has 2 extra wins. Both have 8 top 10 finishes but Jagr played 10 more seasons. Definitely edge to OV.

Peak season: coin flip Ovechkin 07/08 or Jagr 98/99
Extended peak: coin flip OV 07/08-09/10 or Jagr 97/98-99/00 (not including Lemieux boosted 95/96 or 00/01)
Prime: probably Jagr, but OV is still going strong
Playoffs: Ovechkin
International: Jagr
AST: 7-7 1st, 4-1 2nd---11-8 OV
Awards: 16-9 OV
--OV has won every possible realistic award (ross, Rocket, hart, lindsay, smythe, calder) while Jagr has no rocket, no smythe, no calder

Ovechkin is with Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux as the only players with 3 harts and a smythe. He has the most goal scoring titles in history and will go down as the GOAT goal scorer. He is ahead of Jagr at this point.

Multiple issues
1) Comparing their Hart records and including seasons played is inherently dishonest since Oveckin probably has several more seasons to play. You're attempted to say that what Ovechkin has done in 13 seasons is more impressive than what Jagr did in 24 which is unfair
2) Who is Ovechkin really competing for LW all star nods?
3) Why don't you talk about Art Ross wins?
4) He is tied for most goal scoring titles with Bobby Hull at 7
6) Citing raw award count is the laziest attempt to compare players I've seen on this board
7) Top 5 in hits

 

[MXD]

Can we start over? I want a chance to vote Ovy in the first round...I mean, 200+ hits! That more than makes up for Jagr being the best player in the world for half a decade...how can I say no to that?

In all seriousness, the more of those types of posts I see, the more I see these types of posts, the more it pushes me towards Ovechkin being near the bottom of my ballot this round...not because they're annoyingly one-sided, but because it's like watching a movie trailer, it being very underwhelming and going "wait, this was the two minutes that were supposed to pull me in? I can't imagine another two hours of that...no thanks..." #200hits

I actually have the same reaction to posts against Crosby, which I should probably know better than to entertain by now. But it's worse : I watched the movie, absolutely loved it, then got shown the trailer, which left me wondering if this was the movie I watched in the first place.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'm not that high on Morenz either, but can you really say he "did nothing"? Would you ever say Crosby "did nothing" in two straight playoff games where he was held off the scoresheet? Think back to 2016 - there were probably three occasions where he was pointless for two games. Did he "do nothing"? Or was he creating chances, carrying his linemates, being the most dangerous player on the ice, just like always, except he didn't get a point? You know the answer, because you saw those games yourself, but you don't seem willing to entertain that Morenz could have been seen in a similar light at that time. In a low-scoring, tight checking environment, we can see that this happens, even to the best players.

Over the five years you're referring to, Morenz wasn't exactly a passenger on Montreal - yes, this guy and that guy steps up one year or the other, but on the aggregate, Morenz was right in the mix for the title of best performer: Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Yeah, I'd like to see some distance there. I'd like to think that if Lepine has 10 and Joliat 9, then Morenz should have 12-13 in that time, and percentage wise that represents a big difference from nine, but also we're talking about 3 or 4 points, in 25 games. So many little things can happen that can turn a good performance into a zero point night, as you are well aware (think puck luck). Multiply that by about eight, and well, here we are with Morenz.

This is not meant to provide a robust defense of Morenz' playoff record - it's not special. But it's one of those cases where you kinda have to step back to take a wider look. I've heard criticism of Messier for not being his team's leading scorer outright in the playoffs of 1990 or 1991. But step back and look at the entire post-Gretzky period, and it becomes clear who was their best player over this time. Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

It's the exact same with Crosby too - one year it's Kessel, next year it's Malkin, next year it's Guentzel. But look at all three seasons as a whole, and who was the best? Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

I only said he "did nothing" in one 2 game series. I didn't/don't literally mean he did nothing throughout the span I was highlighting.

But breaking down each series, especially over the 6 year span I focused on shows that others repeatedly produced more and in some cases a good bit more than Morenz. He rarely had a series beyond the 1st round (called semi's then) that one would consider good or better, especially considering his skill and expectation of someone with his skill.

The other issue is we're talking about 90 years ago. All we have, unfortunately are game write ups from the newspapers and maybe a few recollections of former players, coaches or refs. So when I see series where others are producing a great deal more (think the Gagnon finals) I have to weigh that more heavily than players today, when we have TV, DVR, an insane amount of information and analysis to go off of. I can see Crosby's impact beyond the stat sheet, or any player for that matter. Same with Messier, even though his exploits are 30ish years old now. It sucks, but unless specifics are mentioned in the newspapers (generally from a Montreal perspective btw) we're more dependent on the numbers to reach conclusions for players during Morenz's time. Not wholly dependent but more so than today because of limited resources.

I see often that Morenz was stymied against the better C's of that era in the postseason. Obviously 1924 was a high water mark and an elite one at that. Even 1925 he was quite good in a losing effort but beyond that there isn't a ton to go on. Morenz lagged well behind others during the back to back runs in 30 and 31, at least in terms of producing offense for Montreal. Whether we're talking pre or post forward pass. I know he was a good defensive player. But how good? He was lightning fast and back checked hard, often. There is some information in general but in the grand scheme it's not THAT much. I've seen him compared to Babe Ruth. But was he really anywhere near that impactful both individually or team wise? No. Not even close, cross sport comparison aside.

 

[seventieslord]

The Ray Bourque article and scouting report package, part 1

These are Bourque's scouting reports from Zander Hollander's annual Complete handbook of Pro Hockey.

 

[seventieslord]

Part 2: Hockey scouting report, 86-87 to 90-91 (this publication gets repetitive in the years after this)

 

[seventieslord]

Part 3: Jim Proudfoot Pro Hockey

 

[ImporterExporter]

"Plays outstanding game of golf" had me chuckling!

But seriously, those are great additions. Bourque's my #10 player ever.

 

[seventieslord]

Part 4: Selected THN articles from before 1988 (because I can find them easily with my indexes)

 

[seventieslord]

Please everyone, it takes me long enough to just get these pictures taken and spread to you, so take some time, read them and share interesting and telling things that you find. I do skim them to determine if they are worth posting, but I don't have the time to transcribe them.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Any theory on why there was such a different result in All-Star voting vs. Norris voting in 1979-80?

 

[seventieslord]

Next up: Shore and Morenz

The THN indexes seem to indicate there are some decent articles about them from the 40s and 50s despite it being past their playing careers.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Seriously?

Take away the 1924 and 1925 playoffs and he isn't even on the radar (okay he'd tie several others for 8th in playoff points in 1930 and 1931).

Compare him in terms of playoffs to Nighbor or Denneny and he doesn't belong anywhere near the top-10 all time!!! (NOT without their HUGE promotion.) We'll get this right some day, even if not soon.

Take away his two best efforts and he isn't on the radar...alright, but why would we do that?

Comparing him with ineligible candidates in the sense that you seem to be implying serves no purpose. The cases for Nighbor and Denneny will be made when appropriate. I will point out though that I don't exactly consider them to be of the same era. Both were nearing the end of the road when Morenz was just hitting his stride.

Oh, I've never suggested that scoring wasn't much lower on the whole during part of Morenz's career.

That doesn't change the fact that others routinely led the charge for Montreal, namely during their back to back Cup runs in 30 and 31.

26-27 Morenz is shut out over 2 games vs a 34 year old Frank Nighbor. 10 years his senior and Nighbor put the clamps down.

As you said, in 27-28 Morenz and the Habs got upset by the Maroons. Scoring was obviously very low but Morenz did nothing in the 2 games that series. Albert Leduc led team with 2 points. And let's not look past Morenz's 12 PIMs in 2 games. Certainly not helping your team when you are in the box 6 minutes a game....

28-29 Morenz again completely shut down in 3 games, all losses. 0 points and 6 PIM's. Joliat led team with 2 points.

29-30 they win their fist of back to back but Morenz is outscored by Lepine, Wasnie and Leduc. Morenz and Mantha have 3 points. In the Cup final he had 1 point in the 2 games. Certainly an upset given how dominant Boston was but 4 other Habs scored more. The semi finals Howie did nothing against NY being shut down by Boucher. His best performance came in the 1st round.

30-31 scoring increases greatly and yet Morenz again isn't really near the top of scoring for Montreal during their Cup win. 5 points in 10 games. Johnny Gagnon led all scorers with 8 points in that span. Mantha and Lepine had 6. Guess who dominated in the Cup finals? Not Morenz. He had 1 measly point in 5 games. Gagnon stole the show with 6. Lepine had 4, Mantha 3, Wasnie and Joliat 2 apiece. Morenz did his damage in the first round vs Boston.

31-32 Morenz again is weak. 1 point in 4 games. Behind 5, count em 5 other Habs in scoring in a first round exit against....Frank Boucher. I keep saying Boucher was certainly a better defensive C and it's results like this that lend credence to that fact.

That's a 6 year stretch that looks very, very bleak to me despite 2 Cup wins. I'm sorry but unless somebody can produce legitimate (beyond a few newspaper clippings) proof that Morenz was otherworldly defensively or used in some sort of strange manner, there is nothing to conclude other than he was poor to average and other Habs stepped up and carried the load.

All the information from your season-by-season breakdowns is just what you've concluded from reviewing the stats sheet. A deeper look puts a different perspective on some of that information. I've re-posted the info I presented on Morenz at the bottom. You will notice that there several instances where the picture painted by the stat sheet does not reflect what more detailed, first hand accounts tell us. 1931 is especially interesting.

Now I regret not doing a recap of every playoff game of Morenz' career.Too late for that now.If I learned anything by reading over a hundred game descriptions from the 1920s is that you cannot just check the stats and come to a definitive conclusion about who played best.And this isn't just a Nighbor special case, it's across the board.

Not quite as in depth, but the Trail of the Stanley Cup does at least have a blurb on every playoff game Morenz participated in. I detailed this in a post from the HOH Playoff Players project:

The case for three-time Cup champion Howie Morenz, info pulled from The Trail of the Stanley Cup.

1924. Morenz seems to have been the best player as Montreal went 6-0 over three series to win the Cup with relative ease. Had the winning goal in a 1-0 win, 2 goals in 4-2 win over Ottawa in the NHL Final. Had a hat trick in 6-1 win over Calgary in the Stanley Cup Final, Montreal beating the Tigers 2-0 in games without much trouble.

1925. Another great effort in the NHL Final. Two goals in 3-2 win over Toronto with Joliat injured, then scored again in a 2-0 win to advance. The Habs fell behind 2-0 to Victoria in the Stanley Cup series, but Morenz got a hat trick in Game 3 to stave off elimination before Montreal fell in Game 4.

1927. His play is described well in semi final series (2 games/total goals) as he scored and assisted in 2-1 total goals win. Ottawa got ahead of Montreal quickly in the division final (same format) and played kitty bar the door. Morenz and Joliat "tried hard but to no avail".

1928. This is a disappointing performance. Morenz took a lot of penalties as the Habs lost 3-2 total goals semi final.

1929. Montreal finished first and played first place Boston in a best-of-five semi final as the playoff format now dictated. Morenz was described as "always dangerous" with his rushes, despite a 1-0 loss in Game 1. Another 1-0 loss in Game 2, then a 3-2 loss "despite determined efforts of Morenz and Joliat".

1930. Morenz scored two goals including the OT winner to win 3-2 total goals series in the first round. It is mentioned that the Canadiens were tired after the long OT game, but had a very short turnaround before the next series began. As it happened, the opening game of this round went to quadruple OT. Montreal won this series 2-0 and it is interesting that subs scored all the goals. The Habs then upset Boston to win the Stanley Cup 2 games to 0. Morenz had one goal, and was described along with Lepine as the star in the deciding game.

1931. Had three assists in opening game defeat, little mention thereafter in a 3-2 series win over Boston. Morenz was described as "easily the outstanding player" after Game 2 loss in the Cup Final, despite 0 goals in playoffs. He is said to have put up a great performance in Game 3, a triple OT loss. Morenz "did everything but score" in a Game 4 win to send the Final to a decisive game. He finally scored in Game 5 to clinch Cup. It is mentioned that he was playing with an injured shoulder.

1932. Strong effort in opening 4-3 win over the Rangers in the semi-final. Long OT game loss in game 2, then played the very next night in NY, a 1-0 loss where it seems the teams were understandably tired. Joliat and Lepine were both injured in this game, and Montreal was ousted from the playoffs the next game.

1933. Two game/total goals, Montreal lost opener 5-2, and the Morenz line was outplayed by the Cooks and Frank Boucher. Morenz then started Game 2 on defense as coach Newsy Lalonde wanted 4 forwards on the ice to try and close the gap. This seemed to work as Morenz had two assists to pull the round to 6-5 total. Two late Ranger goals sealed the series.

1934. Morenz apparently played great and scored in 3-2 loss in the first game of another two game/total goals. It is said that the Canadiens had numerous injuries, and Morenz himself left injured in Game 2 as Montreal was eliminated.

1935. Now in Chicago. The Black Hawks lost 1-0 total goals in their opening round series. Morenz being stopped on two breakaways was the only specific mention of his play.

Morenz seems to have almost always figured prominently in his teams successes, with few instances where he clearly dropped the ball. His great playoff runs occurred at a time when there simply weren't many games to be played, and he had some prime years in an extremely low scoring environment. I don't think Morenz is a must include at this stage, but at the same time I don't think his resume is lacking compared to just-listed Sidney Crosby or Phil Esposito. They just have much more attractive and easier to quantify statistical profiles. If we're being fair to all eras (and why wouldn't we), we have to remember that modern players might not look so impressive at a glance if they only got to play 6 games during a Conn Smythe-level Cup run.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Not quite as in depth, but the Trail of the Stanley Cup does at least have a blurb on every playoff game Morenz participated in. I detailed this in a post from the HOH Playoff Players project:

Yeah I used your post in my Crosby vs. Morenz comparison, so it wasn't meant as a criticism of your work.I did some more in-depth transcriptions of playoff games from the 1920s (not Morenz though), and I know how extremely time-consuming it can be, so I can't expect every player to be covered in this project or everyone to engage in such a task.

 

[Canadiens1958]

What is this?

Crosby was 11pts behind the leader, not even PPG, a minus player. OV was the top goal scorer, 5pts behind the leader, PPG+, plus player, top 5 in hits. Stop comparing them, OV's run was way better.

Jagr wasn't a better player, OV's peak is just as good. OV's goal scoring and 200+ hits make up for Jagr's bigger PPG separation from peers. One thing Jagr was better at was quitting on teams. More adaptable? Like when he whined and sulked when asked to change his game? Better playoff resume? Where's his smythe? Has he ever passed the 2nd round when he was the main man? True he was the best player in the world for a half decade. But wasn't OV the best player from 05/06-09/10 (he was better than Crosby in 4/5 seasons)? If he was the best in goals where's his rocket? OV always plays with Backstrom/Kuznetsov? Were they in the league when OV scored 98 goals in his first 2 seasons? And I'm sure rookie Backstrom's (who didn't play with OV until the 2nd half of 07/08) 69pts played a huge role in OV's 65 goal/112pt season.

Hart finishes
OV: 1,1,1,2,2,6,6,9 (13 seasons)
Jagr: 1,2,2,2,2,3,4,7 (24 seasons)

Jagr has an extra nomination, but OV has 2 extra wins. Both have 8 top 10 finishes but Jagr played 10 more seasons. Definitely edge to OV.

Peak season: coin flip Ovechkin 07/08 or Jagr 98/99
Extended peak: coin flip OV 07/08-09/10 or Jagr 97/98-99/00 (not including Lemieux boosted 95/96 or 00/01)
Prime: probably Jagr, but OV is still going strong
Playoffs: Ovechkin
International: Jagr
AST: 7-7 1st, 4-1 2nd---11-8 OV
Awards: 16-9 OV
--OV has won every possible realistic award (ross, Rocket, hart, lindsay, smythe, calder) while Jagr has no rocket, no smythe, no calder

Ovechkin is with Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux as the only players with 3 harts and a smythe. He has the most goal scoring titles in history and will go down as the GOAT goal scorer. He is ahead of Jagr at this point.

To be clear, in the bolded you effectively allege that both Ovechkin and Jagr, quit on teams, except Jagr was better at quitting on teams?

Examples?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Please everyone, it takes me long enough to just get these pictures taken and spread to you, so take some time, read them and share interesting and telling things that you find. I do skim them to determine if they are worth posting, but I don't have the time to transcribe them.

-Bourque already getting described in his rookie year as somebody who's value doesn't show up on the stats sheet. Mentioned that when Brad Park was unavailable, Bourque stepped up and took charge of the powerplay. The (admittedly biased) Terry O'Reilly said he was the closest thing to Orr to enter the league since, including Potvin.

-Bourque was called "a field general on ice" for the Bruins in his fourth season. This team still had some pretty big names on the roster, including Brad Park.

Thus far, nobody has really managed to dig up any dirt on Bourque. I came into this round with Morenz and Crosby as my top 2. Bourque is at least giving me pause to consider this, and at the moment he's my #3 here. I wondered whether I might have been overrating him a little on my preliminary list, but I don't think so in light of what has been presented in his favour.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

interesting how it's not until '86 that they talk about bourque's famous wrist shot from the point. before, all the articles talk about his slap shot.

also, amusing that sinden goes from saying "i never compare anyone to orr. there will never be another orr," to "orr wasn't perfect. he's just as good as orr."

 

[Canadiens1958]

Howie Morenz:

1930 L.S.B. Shapiro,The Gazette,SC winning game including details of each period:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

1931 L.S.B. Shapiro,The Gazette,SC victory over Chicago, reviews all the players. For someone who was too injured to play, Howie Morenz did very well, contributing to the victory:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

1932 L.S.B. Shapiro, The Gazette after game 4 vs NYR:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Summary.

Three playoff seasons where Howie Morenz is praised for his defensive efforts. 1931, a year, when Morenz was to injured to play, he did play. Unlike modern stars who focus on offence , Morenz focused on defence playing hurt.

Overlooked. With injuries the three years, and a hole at RW in 1930, Morenz adapted, Crosby like to depth wingers.

Surprised and disappointed that these articles were not found earlier. Hope they are ATD archives worthy.