Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3
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Canadiens1958
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BM67
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This is a compilation of some of my posts from the original HOH Top 100 project. I've updated some of the numbers with the new NHL data (mostly the missing charts), but some of it has not been updated.
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Plante was short changed on all-star selections because he played on a stacked team. Plante led Montreal to 5 straight Vezinas and Stanley Cups but was only voted 1st all-star twice during that run. When he won the Vezina after Harvey was traded, he won the Hart. No one thought he'd win it without Harvey, but before that he was expected to win the Vezina because of Harvey.
Plante's top 5 Hart record has to be looked at in the same light as his all-star teams. Beliveau is the only Canadiens to win the Hart during their 5 straight Cup run. In fact Beliveau and Harvey are the only Canadiens to finish in the top 5 more than once.
He was a 7 time all-star, and won the Hart Trophy in 1962. His 6 Stanley Cup wins, 10 Finals appearances, and 7 Vezina Trophies are all records for goaltenders. A Retro Conn Smythe win in 1960 also makes him the one of only two goalies with both a Hart and a Conn Smythe. Chuck Rayner is the other.
According to the unofficial SV% numbers, Plante had a SV% over .900 every year, regular season and playoff, until the playoffs of 72. He led the NHL in SV% 5 times in the regular season, and 4 times in the playoffs, including a record .944 in 70-71. He had a high peak, consistency, and longevity like no other. (Plante's quality of competition played a big part in his post expansion SV%, but he still put up very good playoff numbers, and his RS numbers truly are incredible.)
As good as Roy was in the playoffs, his W% dropped from .618 to .616 in the playoffs, while Plante's climbed from .614 (.628 in playoff seasons) to .664.
"If Jacques was in the nets today, I'd still be playing. That's how good he was." - Bob Plager, Hockey Digest 1981
Plante was in net as a junior team beat the Soviet National Team.
"Jacques Plante is the best goaltender I've ever seen." - Anatoli Tarasov
"He did it his own way, and he was so damn good, he could do it his way." - Red Fisher
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Glenn Hall is the only goaltender to ever be voted the NHL's best 7 times. He won a Smythe and was further voted #2 goaltender in the league 4 times.
At first glance it looks like Hall should be ahead of Plante, but you have to look beyond the awards, and playoffs also factor in, and Hall doesn't shine there career wise.
Two of Hall's 1st team nods came over Plante by a combined voting margin of 5 points, 108 to 104 in 57-58 and 106 to 105 in 59-60. 7 to 3 doesn't tell the whole story. Plante was hurt because of the team he played on. He was not getting enough credit for helping his great team, until Harvey left, then he got the Hart. From 56 to 60 he won 5 Vezinas, 5 Stanley Cups, and gave the best goaltending that Toe Blake every saw, but was only a 1st team all-star twice.
Hall and Plante played together in St. Louis for 2 years, lets compare:
Hall RS 69 GP 26 W 20 L 11 T 3360 Min 134 GA 9 SO 2.39 GAA 1559 SOG .914 SV%
Plante RS 69 GP 36 W 21 L 11 T 3976 Min 137 GA 10 SO 2.07 GAA 1854 SOG .926 SV%
Hall PO 10 GP 4 W 5 L 550 Min 26 GA 0 SO 2.84 GAA 272 SOG .904 SV%
Plante PO 16 GP 12 W 3 L 912 Min 22 GA 4 SO 1.45 GAA 381 SOG .942 SV%
Plante is 2 years older than Hall and came out of a 3 year retirement, and out performed Hall. Hall played in St. Louis for 4 years and Plante for 2, yet they both had 12 playoff wins while there.
Compare Hall's Conn Smythe playoff to Plante's of the next season where he didn't win.
Hall 18 GP 8 W 10 L 535 Min 45 GA 1 SO 2.44 GAA 490 SA .916 SV%
Plante 10 GP 8 W 2 L 589 Min 14 GA 3 SO 1.43 GAA 264 SA .950 SV%
Based on their play in the Finals, Hall deserved the Conn Smythe and Plante didn't, but based on the entire playoffs, Plante was just as deserving. Basically the difference is that Montreal was pumped to play against Plante much more than they were against Hall.
Compare Plante in 71 when he was a 2nd team all-star to Hall in 69 and Worsley in 68 when they were 1st team members.
Worsley 40 GP 21 W 7 L 8 T 2211 Min 73 GA 6 SO 1.98 GAA 937 SA .922 SV%
Hall 41 GP 19 W 12 L 8 T 2351 Min 85 GA 8 SO 2.17 GAA 1186 SA .928 SV%
Plante 40 GP 24 W 11 L 4 T 2323 Min 73 GA 4 SO 1.89 GAA 1297 SA .944 SV%
Hall won the Conn Smythe in 68, and was a 1st team all-star in 69. Plante on the same team played better in 69 & 70. Plante was better from 69 to 71 than Hall was from 68 to 70, but Hall has a Conn Smythe and a 1st team all-star to Plante's 2nd team all-star. I'm not saying take away the awards, but look beyond them.
Having a better year doesn't always get you a better award. Plante's numbers were better and he played behind a worse team in 71. If Plante had played the same in 68 or 69 he would have been the 1st all-star, so just pointing at 1st vs 2nd doesn't tell the story.
Playoff vs regular season career comparison:
(Missing chart)
I'll have to do a version of this chart removing non-playoff seasons.
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When Goalie's World did their all-time goalie ranking in 2000, they said their biggest argument against Sawchuck being #1 is that he was never a 1st All-star after Hall and Plante were in the NHL.
Sawchuck first 5 (full) years vs rest of career (15 years, from 55-56 on)
345 games 199 wins 57 shutouts 1.94 GAA 3 1st A-S 2 2nd A-S 3 Vezina 3 Cups
626 games 248 wins 46 shutouts 2.82 GAA 0 1st A-S 2 2nd A-S 1 Vezina 1 Cup
Plante first 5 (full) years vs rest of career (11 years, from 59-60 on)
331 games 187 wins 44 shutouts 2.02 GAA 2 1st A-S 2 2nd A-S 4 Vezina 5 Cups
506 games 250 wins 38 shutouts 2.61 GAA 1 1st A-S 2 2nd A-S 3 Vezina 1 Cup
Hall first 5 (full) years vs rest of career (11 years, from 60-61 on)
358 games 154 wins 31 shutouts 2.52 GAA 3 1st A-S 1 2nd A-S 0 Vezina 0 Cups
548 games 253 wins 53 shutouts 2.48 GAA 4 1st A-S 3 2nd A-S 3 Vezina 1 Cup
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It's been pointed out that Plante didn't do much with the Rangers. Let's take a look.
Compare Worsley and Plante before and after the trade.
Worlsey 62-63 67 GP 22 W 34 L 10 T 3980 Min 217 GA 2 SO 3.27 GAA 2317 Saves .914 SV%
Plante 63-64 65 GP 22 W 36 L 7 T 3900 Min 220 GA 3 SO 3.38 GAA 2222 Saves .910 SV%
Hmm... Doesn't look good for Plante, but what else changed?
Doug Harvey 62-63 68 GP 4 G 35 A 39 Pts 92 PIM
Doug Harvey 63-64 14 GP 0 G 2 A 2 Pts 10 PIM
I wonder how many GA 54 games of Harvey are worth?
Of course the next year there was no Harvey, and Plante had a knee injury that required surgery and he went into his three year retirement.
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Plante was short changed on all-star selections because he played on a stacked team. Plante led Montreal to 5 straight Vezinas and Stanley Cups but was only voted 1st all-star twice during that run. When he won the Vezina after Harvey was traded, he won the Hart. No one thought he'd win it without Harvey, but before that he was expected to win the Vezina because of Harvey.
Plante's top 5 Hart record has to be looked at in the same light as his all-star teams. Beliveau is the only Canadiens to win the Hart during their 5 straight Cup run. In fact Beliveau and Harvey are the only Canadiens to finish in the top 5 more than once.
He was a 7 time all-star, and won the Hart Trophy in 1962. His 6 Stanley Cup wins, 10 Finals appearances, and 7 Vezina Trophies are all records for goaltenders. A Retro Conn Smythe win in 1960 also makes him the one of only two goalies with both a Hart and a Conn Smythe. Chuck Rayner is the other.
According to the unofficial SV% numbers, Plante had a SV% over .900 every year, regular season and playoff, until the playoffs of 72. He led the NHL in SV% 5 times in the regular season, and 4 times in the playoffs, including a record .944 in 70-71. He had a high peak, consistency, and longevity like no other. (Plante's quality of competition played a big part in his post expansion SV%, but he still put up very good playoff numbers, and his RS numbers truly are incredible.)
As good as Roy was in the playoffs, his W% dropped from .618 to .616 in the playoffs, while Plante's climbed from .614 (.628 in playoff seasons) to .664.
Know something? While Blake at times hated Plante, he always insisted he was the best goaltender he'd ever seen.
"Especially those five years we won the Cup, eh?" Blake said. "I played with (Bill) Durnan, and he was the best I'd ever seen up to that time. Plante was better during those five years."
Blake knew it and so did Plante. His teammates knew it, even though he stretched their patience from time to time. It's true he played behind many of hockey's best players, starting with Doug Harvey on defence, Jean Beliveau, Dickie Moore, Maurice and Henri Richard, Boom Boom Geoffrion and others. The result was that on some nights, Plante's work was minimal because his colleagues controlled the puck most of the game, but he always made the big stops when the Canadiens needed them. No goaltender I have ever known was more confident in his ability to win.
- Red Fisher - The man in the mask"Especially those five years we won the Cup, eh?" Blake said. "I played with (Bill) Durnan, and he was the best I'd ever seen up to that time. Plante was better during those five years."
Blake knew it and so did Plante. His teammates knew it, even though he stretched their patience from time to time. It's true he played behind many of hockey's best players, starting with Doug Harvey on defence, Jean Beliveau, Dickie Moore, Maurice and Henri Richard, Boom Boom Geoffrion and others. The result was that on some nights, Plante's work was minimal because his colleagues controlled the puck most of the game, but he always made the big stops when the Canadiens needed them. No goaltender I have ever known was more confident in his ability to win.
"If Jacques was in the nets today, I'd still be playing. That's how good he was." - Bob Plager, Hockey Digest 1981
Plante was in net as a junior team beat the Soviet National Team.
"Jacques Plante is the best goaltender I've ever seen." - Anatoli Tarasov
"He did it his own way, and he was so damn good, he could do it his way." - Red Fisher
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Glenn Hall is the only goaltender to ever be voted the NHL's best 7 times. He won a Smythe and was further voted #2 goaltender in the league 4 times.
At first glance it looks like Hall should be ahead of Plante, but you have to look beyond the awards, and playoffs also factor in, and Hall doesn't shine there career wise.
Two of Hall's 1st team nods came over Plante by a combined voting margin of 5 points, 108 to 104 in 57-58 and 106 to 105 in 59-60. 7 to 3 doesn't tell the whole story. Plante was hurt because of the team he played on. He was not getting enough credit for helping his great team, until Harvey left, then he got the Hart. From 56 to 60 he won 5 Vezinas, 5 Stanley Cups, and gave the best goaltending that Toe Blake every saw, but was only a 1st team all-star twice.
Hall and Plante played together in St. Louis for 2 years, lets compare:
Hall RS 69 GP 26 W 20 L 11 T 3360 Min 134 GA 9 SO 2.39 GAA 1559 SOG .914 SV%
Plante RS 69 GP 36 W 21 L 11 T 3976 Min 137 GA 10 SO 2.07 GAA 1854 SOG .926 SV%
Hall PO 10 GP 4 W 5 L 550 Min 26 GA 0 SO 2.84 GAA 272 SOG .904 SV%
Plante PO 16 GP 12 W 3 L 912 Min 22 GA 4 SO 1.45 GAA 381 SOG .942 SV%
Plante is 2 years older than Hall and came out of a 3 year retirement, and out performed Hall. Hall played in St. Louis for 4 years and Plante for 2, yet they both had 12 playoff wins while there.
Compare Hall's Conn Smythe playoff to Plante's of the next season where he didn't win.
Hall 18 GP 8 W 10 L 535 Min 45 GA 1 SO 2.44 GAA 490 SA .916 SV%
Plante 10 GP 8 W 2 L 589 Min 14 GA 3 SO 1.43 GAA 264 SA .950 SV%
Based on their play in the Finals, Hall deserved the Conn Smythe and Plante didn't, but based on the entire playoffs, Plante was just as deserving. Basically the difference is that Montreal was pumped to play against Plante much more than they were against Hall.
Compare Plante in 71 when he was a 2nd team all-star to Hall in 69 and Worsley in 68 when they were 1st team members.
Worsley 40 GP 21 W 7 L 8 T 2211 Min 73 GA 6 SO 1.98 GAA 937 SA .922 SV%
Hall 41 GP 19 W 12 L 8 T 2351 Min 85 GA 8 SO 2.17 GAA 1186 SA .928 SV%
Plante 40 GP 24 W 11 L 4 T 2323 Min 73 GA 4 SO 1.89 GAA 1297 SA .944 SV%
Hall won the Conn Smythe in 68, and was a 1st team all-star in 69. Plante on the same team played better in 69 & 70. Plante was better from 69 to 71 than Hall was from 68 to 70, but Hall has a Conn Smythe and a 1st team all-star to Plante's 2nd team all-star. I'm not saying take away the awards, but look beyond them.
Having a better year doesn't always get you a better award. Plante's numbers were better and he played behind a worse team in 71. If Plante had played the same in 68 or 69 he would have been the 1st all-star, so just pointing at 1st vs 2nd doesn't tell the story.
Playoff vs regular season career comparison:
(Missing chart)
I'll have to do a version of this chart removing non-playoff seasons.
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When Goalie's World did their all-time goalie ranking in 2000, they said their biggest argument against Sawchuck being #1 is that he was never a 1st All-star after Hall and Plante were in the NHL.
Sawchuck first 5 (full) years vs rest of career (15 years, from 55-56 on)
345 games 199 wins 57 shutouts 1.94 GAA 3 1st A-S 2 2nd A-S 3 Vezina 3 Cups
626 games 248 wins 46 shutouts 2.82 GAA 0 1st A-S 2 2nd A-S 1 Vezina 1 Cup
Plante first 5 (full) years vs rest of career (11 years, from 59-60 on)
331 games 187 wins 44 shutouts 2.02 GAA 2 1st A-S 2 2nd A-S 4 Vezina 5 Cups
506 games 250 wins 38 shutouts 2.61 GAA 1 1st A-S 2 2nd A-S 3 Vezina 1 Cup
Hall first 5 (full) years vs rest of career (11 years, from 60-61 on)
358 games 154 wins 31 shutouts 2.52 GAA 3 1st A-S 1 2nd A-S 0 Vezina 0 Cups
548 games 253 wins 53 shutouts 2.48 GAA 4 1st A-S 3 2nd A-S 3 Vezina 1 Cup
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It's been pointed out that Plante didn't do much with the Rangers. Let's take a look.
Compare Worsley and Plante before and after the trade.
Worlsey 62-63 67 GP 22 W 34 L 10 T 3980 Min 217 GA 2 SO 3.27 GAA 2317 Saves .914 SV%
Plante 63-64 65 GP 22 W 36 L 7 T 3900 Min 220 GA 3 SO 3.38 GAA 2222 Saves .910 SV%
Hmm... Doesn't look good for Plante, but what else changed?
Doug Harvey 62-63 68 GP 4 G 35 A 39 Pts 92 PIM
Doug Harvey 63-64 14 GP 0 G 2 A 2 Pts 10 PIM
I wonder how many GA 54 games of Harvey are worth?
Of course the next year there was no Harvey, and Plante had a knee injury that required surgery and he went into his three year retirement.
The Macho King
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Not to be a punk, but Plante's Vezinas border on irrelevant for me. He was behind a truly great defensive forward for a lot of his time in Richard, a solid two way 1C in Beliveau, one of the best defenders of all-time in Harvey. Of course he's going to win some Vezinas in a 6-team league. I think the *lack* of 1st AS in those years isn't a lack of respect for Plante as much as an acknowledgement that other players (I'm guessing he lost most of these to Hall?) were doing if not more - almost as much - with much less.
But to your overall point - Plante is up for this vote while Hall and Sawchuk are not. So... I think the majority agree with this take.
But to your overall point - Plante is up for this vote while Hall and Sawchuk are not. So... I think the majority agree with this take.
MXD
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Plante raises the question whether a goalie can truly be great when playing behind a great team. Plante has always left me the impression he was the best netminder his time (and of all-time) in an abstract/skill sense, but who ended up being passed due to a few other netminders having more opportunities to show their true worth.
There aren't many players whose case is really bolstered by what they did past 35 years old. Jacques Plante is one of those few players.
There aren't many players whose case is really bolstered by what they did past 35 years old. Jacques Plante is one of those few players.
The Macho King
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Looking at our list to date, we don't seen to have knocked any of the other players for that team, so I don't know why Plante would bear the entirety of that burden where Harvey, Beliveau, and Richard don't (although Beliveau's case is bolstered by his continued success, and Richard's is bolstered by his pre-dynasty success [incorrectly so IMO but I know the people have spoken on that so I just want to bring it up again to be contentious]).
DannyGallivan
Your world frightens and confuses me
That's one of the main reasons I placed Dryden so low on my list. I lived and breathed the Habs as a kid growing up in the 70's, and saw almost all of Dryden's televised games (French or English CBC in the Winnipeg area) from the time he returned from his one year off to his retirement. I don't think that he ever stole a game for Montreal (never had to) in those years. In fact, he often let in some questionable goals because, probably because of boredom. He was a goalie who, IMO, was overrated due to the amazing defensive team in front of him, among other reasons.
Therefore, I have to look at Plante sideways a bit. No doubt he was a great goaltender, but I tend to agree that the Vezinas and Stanley Cups are a reflection of the team as a whole more than the goaltender.
DannyGallivan
Your world frightens and confuses me
Because most goalie achievements of that day were team achievements, such as the Vezina. Now, Plante does have that Hart Trophy which helps his case a lot.
The Macho King
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I'm specifically talking about our list - not voting patterns at the time. We seem to be fine with representing the 50s Habs heavily - including Plante. He is going to place well ahead of his contemporaries despite backstopping a dynasty.
We haven't discussed a ton on Plante this round, but if someone wants to make a case as to where he should lie, I'm all ears. He obviously is a great playoff performer, he backstopped a dynasty, and he had a good twilight (in direct competition with Hall which even further bolsters his case). Is there an argument for putting him over Hasek here?
BenchBrawl
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MXD
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Well...
I know that what I'm about to say isn't TOTALLY accurate, but it's quite accurate.
Harvey, Beliveau and Richard (and Petit Richard and Moore and Geoffrion and non-Top-100-worth-mentionning-here Tom Johnson and Bert Olmstead) are what made this team what it was. It made it a team that could basically not fail.
Plante? Well, sure, he was there when the reminder of the team "failed" (to a certain extent : allowing shots doesn't equate to failures), but he didn't always had to be the star. Plante played some great hockey before and after the dynasty, so we know that he wasn't totally a passenger. But we can say that the eight players named above are a big reason why that team was so good. And they had good depth too.
Dryden does have a few things that clearly points that he wasn't quite what you're describing though (a bit like Plante). Let's revisit in due time though, since we're (really) not there yet.
MXD
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Again : How can we be so sure a goalie was so great if he has as much leeway as Plante did?
(That's something of a metaphysical question actually)
The Macho King
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I agree with you, and that's why I think Roy and Hasek are being discussed now and Plante is kind of an afterthought this round. They excelled as *the* guy on their team, while Plante didn't have that same opportunity.
In a mirror universe Hall and Plante are on different teams and the Blackhawks have four Cups in the 60s probably. But in this universe - yeah, I ding Plante for his situation. If Roy didn't have the Habs years to show what he was made of and only backstopped the stacked Avs, we wouldn't have placed him in the top 10 either.
BenchBrawl
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Not sure this applies to Plante, since he's probably a Top 3 player of the mega-dynasty, but I guess you'd have to go with his raw talent in that case.I agree it's not ideal to judge someone that was never tested.Guess this is what we means by "in a vacuum".
There are other questions about ranking players that are metaphysical.For example, if you had to throw the "in a vacuum" specimen that are Potvin and Lidstrom into thousands of different hockey career circumstances in alternate universes (different teams, different teammates, different coaches, different towns, different X or Y, but the players remain the same specimen), who does better? I guess this is sort of the same question.
(p.s. Potvin would win)
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VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Since THE TOP TWO point getters of the longest dynasty in NHL history are INELIGIBLE YET, that means you think Beliveau and Richard aren't top 3 of the dynasty.
I see Plante as 4th greatest contributor to the 5-year dynasty. Heck, that is Isles' goalie role... yes, in terms of dynasty role, Smith and Plante compare. One absurdly is gonna be ranked by some voters way ahead of Hasek and the other won't even sniff 100th greatest voting considetation.
Hogtied at a Southern bbq yet declared free. That's how I feel.
Canadiens1958
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The Macho King
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The logic as I see it is that Potvin (especially) and Lidstrom (kinda?) played in numerous different situations, so we have a pretty good idea of how they translate. This applies less to Plante than to a guy like Dryden, but the majority of Plante's prime also is in a similar situation. IMO Plante has enough on each side of his career to show that he wasn't just a product of a good team in front of him, but it's also hard to see how much credit he should get when the majority of his accolades were achieved in what can only be described as the best situation a goaltender has ever been in (except for *maybe* Dryden).
BenchBrawl
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It's just you overrating Geoffrion, and I like Geoffrion.
Maybe you have a point with Moore though.
I don't think Maurice Richard was a Top 3 player of the dynasty.He was too old.
Maybe Henri Richard was.
Canadiens1958
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VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
He was the top scorer of the 5-year dynasty playoffs (and no one scored more points in the full season just prior AND just subsequent to the dynasty, making for a dang impressive 7-year peak).
Geoffrion, Dionne and Kurri have been vocal about the shadows they've played in. I'll gladly cite their exact words and supporting data.
Right now "Plante as top 3" of the dynasty is the claim I was questioning. And the gall of thinking he deserves several voting slots over Hasek, absent any gumption to try and DIRECTLY argue: Plante over Hasek?
(Gawd I feel like this is a Habs fan unite powder keg. Ugh. Once again.)
DannyGallivan
Your world frightens and confuses me
For the record, Plante made number 30 on my original list of 120. Harvey was 8th and The Rocket was 12th.
Michael Farkas
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MXD
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I'd like to remind both of you that :
- I'm the one that started this discussion on whether Plante gets too much merit for dynasty success. (Credit to BM67 for introducing the discussion in the first place)
- Contrary to popular belief, I'm not a Blue Jackets fan.
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VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Wow. 30th is exactly where I placed Plante initially, halfway between two of his contempory netminders.
WHAT on these threads convinced you to vault him to top-12 status, ahead of even Hasek?
I was stunned at two of the four Habs inducted last round, given I've read every post carefully. And.no, no one has ever suggested I am anti-Habs, the first team I ever loved. (Gawd how I've loathed the pathetic Leafs since childhood.) I have met Dryden (walked to the front of a very long line of a hundred or more autograph seekers and said: "I just wanted to shake the hand of my first hockey hero,... and he eagerly gave me his undivided attention for a couple of minutes of chatting.. before returning to signing robotically those in line) and I became a Caps fan for a quarter century because my 3rd fav Habs blueliner went there (I was a dman when I played organized youth hockey). And no, for the record, my beloved Langway was not among tne 120 names on my submitted list, he painfully missed the cut, I always trying to counter personal bias, though 21st century culture seems quite alternatively primed and pumped.
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MXD
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To keep with the movie theme from the other thread...
"It's not the size that matters, it's how you use it".
- Sherif of Rottingham, in Robin Hood:Men In Tights, 1993.
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