Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

[Kyle McMahon]

I never said he was a one way forward to be fair. But there is nowhere near enough on his defense (believe me I've read it all) to put him anywhere near Nighbor's level or even Frank Boucher IMO. And his biggest dominance came before 1927. That matters to me. It's not huge but it matters. Pre consolidation hockey is not the same thing as post in terms of rules or consolidated talent, top end or depth.

And as I said, his playoffs are uneven. No two ways about it. I've been up and down this a bunch of times. He's got 1 signature run to his name, pre consolidation. There are many players who are more accomplished in the postseason.

But are there many more whose careers overlapped significantly with Morenz?

I don't want to keep dredging this up, but it's difficult to condemn Morenz's postseason results without pretty much throwing a blanket over the entire era. I took a look at the playoffs for 1927, 28, and 29. These three stand out as being ridiculously low-scoring in historical terms. There were 12, 13, and 11 total playoff GP in those seasons, so 36 games in all, each involving two teams of course. In 51 out of 72 attempts, a team failed to score 2 goals in a game. 19 shutouts were posted. Things started to loosen up in 1930 and thereafter.

A pretty good portion of the criticism Morenz receives is for those 1927-29 results, where he had one point in 10 games. His peak offensive years fall right into this three-year black hole in terms of league-wide playoff scoring.

In 1927, Montreal was shut down and eliminated by Ottawa, scoring 1 goal in 2 games. Ottawa went on to similarly stymie Boston, allowing just 3 GA in 4 games en route to winning the Stanley Cup.

In 1928, the Maroons knocked out the Canadiens in a mild upset. 3 goals to 2 in the two-game series. The Maroons played seven other playoff games that spring, allowing just 6 GA in those games. (And didn't even win the Stanley Cup, which speaks to how absurdly hard it was to score in the 1928 playoffs).

In 1929 Montreal was swept 3-0 by Boston, scoring twice in the process. The Bruins won the Cup by defeating the Rangers 2-0 in the final, New York scored just once. You could be forgiven for confusing this entire playoff season with the World Cup of Soccer.

This isn't meant to give Morenz a pass for these three years. They're still a negative. But it is meant to provide some context to the playoff short-comings. The Canadiens were knocked out by the 1st, 2nd, and 2nd overall teams in the league. And those teams each suffocated the offenses of all the other opponents they faced as well. Circumstances certainly played a role in making a disappointing stretch of playoffs look as bad as they possibly could.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Although I watched him as a rookie until he retired, I can't for the life of me remember a Ray Bourque fight. I gotta UTube it.

Most of his fights were as a rookie, as it was for most guys.

Being a skinny teen at the time, he bit off more than he could chew a few times. But that was hockey circa 1980.

 

[VanIslander]

... it's difficult to condemn Morenz's postseason results without pretty much throwing a blanket over the entire era...

Seriously?

Take away the 1924 and 1925 playoffs and he isn't even on the radar (okay he'd tie several others for 8th in playoff points in 1930 and 1931).

Compare him in terms of playoffs to Nighbor or Denneny and he doesn't belong anywhere near the top-10 all time!!! (NOT without their HUGE promotion.) We'll get this right some day, even if not soon.

 

[overg]

I don't know why, but I really like this.

Even though Datsyuk is 10th and 12th.

He was just that good of a two way player. One ranking for each end of the ice.

 

[seventieslord]

Indeed. There's no way Recchi made your 120-name list, is there?

God, no

although, now that I take a look, I feel bad that I sounded so dismissive, because I had 31 wingers on my list and I more or less agree with where he falls on our wingers list. Which means that if I named a top 160, he just might make it

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Indeed.

As a Caps fan since Langway in '82 (I was in junior high), I am pained as an OV fan to recognize that - as I have been to see Malkin outperform Alex on the Russian international squad.

As a Marleau fan since the draft, it hurt to see Thornton hit 400 NHL goals this season! (JT has a tepid shot, like Getzlaf in passing awesome/trigger misery.)

The funny thing was Thornton was more of a shooter in Boston. Feel like once he met cheechoo he switched it up to a degree. Obviously the results payed dividends

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I'm not that surprised. Crosby's a pretty damn underrated goal scorer. He's got a pair of Rocket's and was on pace for a ridiculous 64 goals in 2010-11 over 41 games before he got ran by that plug Steckel.

I have always found in peculiar that Crosby has led the league in goals more times than he has assists. For as great as Crosby has been as a passer he has led the regular season once in assists and twice in the playoffs. Probably should be more...

 

[VanIslander]

The funny thing was Thornton was more of a shooter in Boston. Feel like once he met cheechoo he switched it up to a degree. Obviously the results payed dividends

BS.

Yeah, he was first in goals one year in Boston.. yet he was 5th on his own team in shots.... I never recall him as a shoot-first player. He was always less physical and less shooter-deadly than coaches wanted. I was NOT AT ALL surprised when he was traded away!

 

[MXD]

Seriously?

Take away the 1924 and 1925 playoffs and he isn't even on the radar (okay he'd tie several others for 8th in playoff points in 1930 and 1931).

Compare him in terms of playoffs to Nighbor or Denneny and he doesn't belong anywhere near the top-10 all time!!! (NOT without their HUGE promotion.) We'll get this right some day, even if not soon.

...I'm adding this one to that list :

Well, I had to vote Roy last in round 1 because an ineligible (Hasek) was at least as good as him and I wasn't going to create a gap between the netminders arbitrarily. For example, I thought Roy>>Morenz but also Hasek>>Morenz and Hasek>or=Roy and thus the gap between the two netminders as miniscule compared to the canyon between Morenz and the pair. Epilogue: This round I was a happy camper, with both goalies back-to-back on my list and a gap of five slots to Morenz (not a lot of convincing discussion about Howie this round; doubts prevail).

Plante played behind Beliveau, Richard and Harvey (you know, the most responsible for the dynasty, as was argued last round) and he lost 1st and 2nd team all star selections to contemporaries. He's more like a Billy Smith or Grant Fuhr than a Roy or Hasek.

Plante (should be close to Hall, Sawchuk) doesn't belong anywhere near Hasek; Hasek belongs closer to Roy.

I wonder how many of the 6 guys who ranked Roy first also were among the 7 who ranked Hasek last.

I had them back to back and didn't hear 'gap' arguments. So much discussion made it apparent how competitive the two were when placed side by side.

Hasek would have been inducted if the 7 who ranked him last just put him in the middle of the pack, not even anywhere near the top.

Don't worry. Early NHL era representation is coming soon!

A lot of Montreal Canadiens fans hereabouts. They'll put Morenz first (or second behind Plante) next round.

No Habs this century though. Lafleur will be their next target.

(Jaded and still confused at the 7 last place votes for Hasek yet Roy so much higher. Hope prejudice doesn't explain the gap. Ugh.)

I didn't see why Morenz received so many votes? Where were the convincing arguments?

Back in round one there was discussion of Morenz as overrated, as underwhelming when you look at his production, at the 'star power' factor rather than performances, weak playoffs, the died-so-honor-the-dead dimension, the early hero of Montreal, etc.

We all know 6 of the top 10 are Quebecers, eh?

You just don't seem to have to right state of mind to continue on with this project, since your intenventions seems to have one purpose, and one purpose only.

That's blatant and annoying.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

BS.

Yeah, he was first in goals one year in Boston.. yet he was 5th on his own team in shots.... I never recall him as a shoot-first player. He was always less physical and less shooter-deadly than coaches wanted. I was NOT AT ALL surprised when he was traded away!

Boston wanted Thornton to be a power forward.

But he was a finesse center in a power forward body.

 

[ImporterExporter]

But are there many more whose careers overlapped significantly with Morenz?

I don't want to keep dredging this up, but it's difficult to condemn Morenz's postseason results without pretty much throwing a blanket over the entire era. I took a look at the playoffs for 1927, 28, and 29. These three stand out as being ridiculously low-scoring in historical terms. There were 12, 13, and 11 total playoff GP in those seasons, so 36 games in all, each involving two teams of course. In 51 out of 72 attempts, a team failed to score 2 goals in a game. 19 shutouts were posted. Things started to loosen up in 1930 and thereafter.

A pretty good portion of the criticism Morenz receives is for those 1927-29 results, where he had one point in 10 games. His peak offensive years fall right into this three-year black hole in terms of league-wide playoff scoring.

In 1927, Montreal was shut down and eliminated by Ottawa, scoring 1 goal in 2 games. Ottawa went on to similarly stymie Boston, allowing just 3 GA in 4 games en route to winning the Stanley Cup.

In 1928, the Maroons knocked out the Canadiens in a mild upset. 3 goals to 2 in the two-game series. The Maroons played seven other playoff games that spring, allowing just 6 GA in those games. (And didn't even win the Stanley Cup, which speaks to how absurdly hard it was to score in the 1928 playoffs).

In 1929 Montreal was swept 3-0 by Boston, scoring twice in the process. The Bruins won the Cup by defeating the Rangers 2-0 in the final, New York scored just once. You could be forgiven for confusing this entire playoff season with the World Cup of Soccer.

This isn't meant to give Morenz a pass for these three years. They're still a negative. But it is meant to provide some context to the playoff short-comings. The Canadiens were knocked out by the 1st, 2nd, and 2nd overall teams in the league. And those teams each suffocated the offenses of all the other opponents they faced as well. Circumstances certainly played a role in making a disappointing stretch of playoffs look as bad as they possibly could.

Oh, I've never suggested that scoring wasn't much lower on the whole during part of Morenz's career.

That doesn't change the fact that others routinely led the charge for Montreal, namely during their back to back Cup runs in 30 and 31.

26-27 Morenz is shut out over 2 games vs a 34 year old Frank Nighbor. 10 years his senior and Nighbor put the clamps down.

As you said, in 27-28 Morenz and the Habs got upset by the Maroons. Scoring was obviously very low but Morenz did nothing in the 2 games that series. Albert Leduc led team with 2 points. And let's not look past Morenz's 12 PIMs in 2 games. Certainly not helping your team when you are in the box 6 minutes a game....

28-29 Morenz again completely shut down in 3 games, all losses. 0 points and 6 PIM's. Joliat led team with 2 points.

29-30 they win their fist of back to back but Morenz is outscored by Lepine, Wasnie and Leduc. Morenz and Mantha have 3 points. In the Cup final he had 1 point in the 2 games. Certainly an upset given how dominant Boston was but 4 other Habs scored more. The semi finals Howie did nothing against NY being shut down by Boucher. His best performance came in the 1st round.

30-31 scoring increases greatly and yet Morenz again isn't really near the top of scoring for Montreal during their Cup win. 5 points in 10 games. Johnny Gagnon led all scorers with 8 points in that span. Mantha and Lepine had 6. Guess who dominated in the Cup finals? Not Morenz. He had 1 measly point in 5 games. Gagnon stole the show with 6. Lepine had 4, Mantha 3, Wasnie and Joliat 2 apiece. Morenz did his damage in the first round vs Boston.

31-32 Morenz again is weak. 1 point in 4 games. Behind 5, count em 5 other Habs in scoring in a first round exit against....Frank Boucher. I keep saying Boucher was certainly a better defensive C and it's results like this that lend credence to that fact.

That's a 6 year stretch that looks very, very bleak to me despite 2 Cup wins. I'm sorry but unless somebody can produce legitimate (beyond a few newspaper clippings) proof that Morenz was otherworldly defensively or used in some sort of strange manner, there is nothing to conclude other than he was poor to average and other Habs stepped up and carried the load.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

BS.

Yeah, he was first in goals one year in Boston.. yet he was 5th on his own team in shots.... I never recall him as a shoot-first player. He was always less physical and less shooter-deadly than coaches wanted. I was NOT AT ALL surprised when he was traded away!

I’m not saying he was Ovechkin out there. But there was a difference

 

[MXD]

@ImporterExporter , your point is absolutely legitimate. Absolutely no one calls that stretch "great" or anything like that, and no one calls Morenz a great playoff performer either. He's squarely into "not very good" territory if you take out 1924 (which would be, you'll agree, absolutely ridiculous; 1924 was possibly the Mother of all Signature Playoffs (and Morenz completely outplayed a closer-to-his-prime-and-possibly-still-in-Prime Nighbor). But Johnny Gagnon being Johnny Gagnon, I find it hard to not give even a bit of credit to Morenz here, because Gagnon was his linemate, and one of the most obvious third wheels in the history of famous lines.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Quick question for whomever wants to answer. Does Crosby’s last playoff run off 21 points in 12 games 1.75 ppg add to his legacy or not move the needle at all..?

 

[MXD]

Quick question for whomever wants to answer. Does Crosby’s last playoff run off 21 points in 12 games 1.75 ppg add to his legacy or not move the needle at all..?

Meh. It moves the needle, in that he wasn't bad. The numbers themselves are grossly inflated.

 

[ImporterExporter]

@ImporterExporter , your point is absolutely legitimate. Absolutely no one calls that stretch "great" or anything like that, and no one calls Morenz a great playoff performer either. He's squarely into "not very good" territory if you take out 1924 (which would be, you'll agree, absolutely ridiculous; 1924 was possibly the Mother of all Signature Playoffs (and Morenz completely outplayed a closer-to-his-prime-and-possibly-still-in-Prime Nighbor). But Johnny Gagnon being Johnny Gagnon, I find it hard to not give even a bit of credit to Morenz here, because Gagnon was his linemate, and one of the most obvious third wheels in the history of famous lines.

Agree with all of this. Call Gagnon's run that year along the lines of a Claude Lemieux. Clearly inferior talent producing above the mean.

And the 24 run was absolutely sterling for Howie. Really saves him from being in the poor category when it comes to postseason players IMO. I've always called him uneven and I think that's more than fair given his exploits in the regular season and overall talent.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Meh. It moves the needle, in that he wasn't bad. The numbers themselves are grossly inflated.

How about looking through it from the eyes from someone 30 years from now? I feel like 21 points in 12 games is gaudy. Imo it saves his relatively weak season (for him)

 

[quoipourquoi]

Mark Messier vs. Ray Bourque

So I kinda peaked four months early on this one, because I didn't expect these two players to be available at the same time. At any rate, to recap where we left off in August, ol' quoipourquoi took on the value of All-Star selections at Center, Left Wing, and Defense (and talked some general **** about Defensemen).

For the voting group and future readers, here's a few excerpts from that discussion followed by some new content:

*********

THN (1998)
12. Messier
14. Bourque

ESPN (2004)
11. Messier
12. Bourque

THN-60 Since 67 (2007)
4. Messier
8. Bourque

The Score (2017)
5. Messier
17. Bourque

USA Today (2017)
8. Messier
16. Bourque

Don’t get me wrong; all of these lists since their careers are, as a whole, pretty awful and inconsistent. But there’s not going to be anyone who has seen Mark Messier and not Ray Bourque or vice-versa because it’s the same career overlap. And yet, there may be a complete absence of a media list with the reverse order - that is to say, Bourque over Messier.

If the gap between the two is that big, how did it escape basically every collective assigned with the same task except this forum? Pretty similar Hart distribution. Probably no way to present a playoff argument for Bourque. The chief difference in Bourque’s favor seems to be that there are fewer Bourque-level defensemen historically than there are Messier-level forwards. Which probably would be huge had they not played at the exact same time over which Messier was received marginally better.

It’s just asking for a lot of people to have been completely wrong in their assessment in the moment, immediate aftermath, and the decades-after reflections. I’ve seen it characterized as 1997ish Messier-mania, but... it hasn’t ended in establishment circles. They gave him an award. Throughout NHL 100, they brought him alongside Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux now that Howe has passed. How many times has he presented the Hart Trophy? He’s that guy.

If he was competing for awards against Bourque’s competition for accolades (1982 Doug Wilson, 1987 Mark Howe, 1988 Scott Stevens, 1990 Al MacInnis, 1992 Brian Leetch, 1996 Chris Chelios, and 1997 Brian Leetch) would he have any less than the equivalent to what amounts to five Norris Trophies?

*********

So let's dive into the individual seasons of my theory that Mark Messier = Value of 5-7 Norris Trophies if he competed against the same field against which Ray Bourque competed for his positional awards.


1989-90 (Al MacInnis): A lock

Probably the easiest season of the comparison - one where Mark Messier took the first of two 1st Team selections at Center. Had he been competing against Bourque's field of competition led by Al MacInnis, Messier would have clearly come out on top.


1991-92 (Brian Leetch): A virtual lock

The near-unanimous Hart season in Messier's second of two 1st Team selections at Center. I'd say it's a virtual lock because while the Hart was won with a 67 to 2 vote over everybody, the All-Star selection over Lemieux, Gretzky, and Roenick was 38 to 20, 3, and 4 respectively; so there was definitely an element of "most valuable" vs. best. However, Ray Bourque's top competition for the Norris was Mark Messier's own teammate, so I can't see Messier not being rated higher if put to a vote.


1995-96 (Chris Chelios): Incredibly likely

Mark Messier had some legit Hart buzz going into the final stretch of 1995-96, ultimately finishing 2nd in Hart voting to Mario Lemieux, and 3rd in All-Star voting to the other Hart nominee, Eric Lindros.

Messier has lugged around the rejuvenated Rangers all season, winning face-offs, checking, killing penalties and scoring like never before. At week's end he had 36 goals in 52 games.

...

Messier appeared on the verge of passing the torch as the NHL's best leader to Philadelphia captain Eric Lindros last spring, but before the 22-year-old Lindros dares to claim it, he must recover from second-degree burns this season. In the three Flyers-Rangers matches so far in '95-96, Messier had nine points, Lindros two. Says Messier: "I've told guys our record now doesn't mean anything. It's how we deal with a crisis--and we'll have one at some point--that makes champions."

However this wasn't exactly a light year for Bourque's Norris competition, seeing Chris Chelios take the trophy in a 72-point campaign. The Blackhawks did take somewhat of a step back as this was the first time since 1989-90 that they didn't lead the Western Conference in GA (finishing 39 GA back of Detroit), but practically none of the blowback went on Chelios. Even still, given that Messier finished 1st (10) or 2nd (15) on 46% of the Hart ballots in Lemieux's 161-point season, I don't see the voters not siding with him over the field of defensemen.


1986-87 (Mark Howe): Incredibly likely

For clarification, this is not the signature Mark Howe season (that was in 1985-86) but rather the season where Howe played in 69 games with split attention with Ron Hextall. Messier, in what could be considered his wait-I-thought-you-already-had-a-breakout-season-what's-this season, finished 3rd in points as well as 3rd in points-per-game to Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux - who naturally finished with the 1st and 2nd Team selections at Center.


1987-88 (Scott Stevens): Incredibly likely

For his next trick, Messier finished top-5 in scoring again in Mario Lemieux's 168-point Art Ross season, but this time, placed 3rd in even-strength scoring behind just Gretzky and Lemieux - recording 70 even-strength points in 77 games to Lemieux's 74 even-strength points in 77 games.

...one of the NHL's five best players...

This season Messier has established himself as one of the top playmakers in the league. He finished the regular season with 37 goals and a career-high 74 assists.

Now I make it a policy not to say anything bad about Scott Stevens (and I certainly wouldn't say his name three times while looking into a mirror), but I don't think he would edge out Messier here. I wouldn't give it the ol' Mark Messier guarantee though, because in Wayne Gretzky's absence, you'd like to see Messier pick up the spare Hart votes that instead went to 75-GP Grant Fuhr.


1996-97 (Brian Leetch): Likely

The second of Messier's late career goal-scoring-resurgence seasons, which saw him finish marginally ahead of 2nd Team All-Star Center Wayne Gretzky in points-per-game production (71 games vs. 82 games - so it wasn't a substantial absence by any means). But rather than Mario Lemieux and Messier's teammate Wayne Gretzky, Bourque's top competition was Messier's other teammate, Brian Leetch, who while winning pretty decisively over Sandis Ozolinsh was somewhat taking a backseat to the Messier/Gretzky tandem.

Messier and Gretzky have so far figured in an astonishing 70 percent of the Rangers' goals, and it's rare for the team to score when one or the other of them isn't on the ice. When the Rangers went into a tailspin at the end of February, losing eight straight, concern mounted that the old guys might be too weary and enfeebled (Messier has been suffering from back spasms lately).

...

Messier, in the meantime, seems not to have aged so much as annealed. Over the years he has shed such youthful unnecessaries as his body fat, his Bentley, his loud wardrobe, his late-night prowling, even his hair. In the process he has uncovered the essential Messier.

...

In January when the Isles' Zigmund Palffy escaped being penalized after high-sticking Darren Langdon in the eye (and inflicting a 12-stitch shiner), Messier, enraged, went on a mission, leveling Islanders right and left, flattening them into the boards and then scooping the puck out from a corner and passing it to Leetch, who drove to the net for a goal. An eye for an eye.

...

He's the starting center, the team leader and spokesman, and everyone on the Rangers, from the general manager to the locker-room attendants, takes his cue from No. 11.

While Messier's 11-games spread across forced timeouts and back issues resulted in him conceding the 2nd Team All-Star selection to Wayne Gretzky, if put head-to-head against Brian Leetch instead, I would bet on Messier.


1981-82 (Doug Wilson): Coin Flip

The first Messier breakout, where as a Left Wing, Messier's 50-goal season (3rd in even-strength goal-scoring behind Wayne Gretzky and Mike Bossy) secured a 1st Team All-Star selection with 25/63 1st-place votes while Doug Wilson edged out 65-GP Bourque with 29/63 1st-place votes. The first of three-consecutive All-Star selections on Left Wing, this pre-peak Messier probably could have coasted to several more had he never been switched to a more difficult position to acquire these accolades (which is kind of the point of this exercise).


...so am I crazy? Would four-time 1st Team All-Star Mark Messier, if held against the same competition against which five-time Norris winner Ray Bourque competed for his positional accolades, have been selected the top player in 5-7 seasons?

 

[MXD]

How about looking through it from the eyes from someone 30 years from now? I feel like 21 points in 12 games is gaudy. Imo it saves his relatively weak season (for him)

I'd do deeper research and see two names :
Michael Neuvirth and Brian Elliott.

And THAT Flyers defense.

And see that Crosby got his point in blowouts.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'd do deeper research and see two names :
Michael Neuvirth and Brian Elliott.

And THAT Flyers defense.

And see that Crosby got his point in blowouts.

To be fair I don't think blowouts mean all that much unless the points are mainly at the back end of the scoring. I agree completely (Pens fan admitting as much) that the points vs Philly are indeed inflated.

But Sid was fantastic for the bulk of the Washington series when they got bounced 8 points in 6 games. He and Guentzel were absolutely rolling during those 2 series. Would have been interesting to see how far up the ladder they went but we'll never know.

Matt Murray wasn't good enough and the Malkin-Kessel line bled goals like crazy against Washington (Letang was utter trash as well). That is likely a sweep if Crosby and the top line didn't show up as well as they did.

 

[MXD]

To be fair I don't think blowouts mean all that much unless the points are mainly at the back end of the scoring. I agree completely (Pens fan admitting as much) that the points vs Philly are indeed inflated.

But Sid was fantastic for the bulk of the Washington series when they got bounced 8 points in 6 games. He and Guentzel were absolutely rolling during those 2 series. Would have been interesting to see how far up the ladder they went but we'll never know.

Matt Murray wasn't good enough and the Malkin-Kessel line bled goals like crazy against Washington (Letang was utter trash as well). That is likely a sweep if Crosby and the top line didn't show up as well as they did.

That'S the thing : Sidney Crosby was great against the Caps... but that isn't QUITE how he got to 21 points in 12 games!

 

[86Habs]

Mark Messier vs. Ray Bourque

So I kinda peaked four months early on this one, because I didn't expect these two players to be available at the same time. At any rate, to recap where we left off in August, ol' quoipourquoi took on the value of All-Star selections at Center, Left Wing, and Defense (and talked some general **** about Defensemen).

For the voting group and future readers, here's a few excerpts from that discussion followed by some new content:

*********

THN (1998)
12. Messier
14. Bourque

ESPN (2004)
11. Messier
12. Bourque

THN-60 Since 67 (2007)
4. Messier
8. Bourque

The Score (2017)
5. Messier
17. Bourque

USA Today (2017)
8. Messier
16. Bourque

Don’t get me wrong; all of these lists since their careers are, as a whole, pretty awful and inconsistent. But there’s not going to be anyone who has seen Mark Messier and not Ray Bourque or vice-versa because it’s the same career overlap. And yet, there may be a complete absence of a media list with the reverse order - that is to say, Bourque over Messier.

If the gap between the two is that big, how did it escape basically every collective assigned with the same task except this forum? Pretty similar Hart distribution. Probably no way to present a playoff argument for Bourque. The chief difference in Bourque’s favor seems to be that there are fewer Bourque-level defensemen historically than there are Messier-level forwards. Which probably would be huge had they not played at the exact same time over which Messier was received marginally better.

It’s just asking for a lot of people to have been completely wrong in their assessment in the moment, immediate aftermath, and the decades-after reflections. I’ve seen it characterized as 1997ish Messier-mania, but... it hasn’t ended in establishment circles. They gave him an award. Throughout NHL 100, they brought him alongside Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux now that Howe has passed. How many times has he presented the Hart Trophy? He’s that guy.

If he was competing for awards against Bourque’s competition for accolades (1982 Doug Wilson, 1987 Mark Howe, 1988 Scott Stevens, 1990 Al MacInnis, 1992 Brian Leetch, 1996 Chris Chelios, and 1997 Brian Leetch) would he have any less than the equivalent to what amounts to five Norris Trophies?

*********

So let's dive into the individual seasons of my theory that Mark Messier = Value of 5-7 Norris Trophies if he competed against the same field against which Ray Bourque competed for his positional awards.


1989-90 (Al MacInnis): A lock

Probably the easiest season of the comparison - one where Mark Messier took the first of two 1st Team selections at Center. Had he been competing against Bourque's field of competition led by Al MacInnis, Messier would have clearly come out on top.


1991-92 (Brian Leetch): A virtual lock

The near-unanimous Hart season in Messier's second of two 1st Team selections at Center. I'd say it's a virtual lock because while the Hart was won with a 67 to 2 vote over everybody, the All-Star selection over Lemieux, Gretzky, and Roenick was 38 to 20, 3, and 4 respectively; so there was definitely an element of "most valuable" vs. best. However, Ray Bourque's top competition for the Norris was Mark Messier's own teammate, so I can't see Messier not being rated higher if put to a vote.


1995-96 (Chris Chelios): Incredibly likely

Mark Messier had some legit Hart buzz going into the final stretch of 1995-96, ultimately finishing 2nd in Hart voting to Mario Lemieux, and 3rd in All-Star voting to the other Hart nominee, Eric Lindros.



However this wasn't exactly a light year for Bourque's Norris competition, seeing Chris Chelios take the trophy in a 72-point campaign. The Blackhawks did take somewhat of a step back as this was the first time since 1989-90 that they didn't lead the Western Conference in GA (finishing 39 GA back of Detroit), but practically none of the blowback went on Chelios. Even still, given that Messier finished 1st (10) or 2nd (15) on 46% of the Hart ballots in Lemieux's 161-point season, I don't see the voters not siding with him over the field of defensemen.


1986-87 (Mark Howe): Incredibly likely

For clarification, this is not the signature Mark Howe season (that was in 1985-86) but rather the season where Howe played in 69 games with split attention with Ron Hextall. Messier, in what could be considered his wait-I-thought-you-already-had-a-breakout-season-what's-this season, finished 3rd in points as well as 3rd in points-per-game to Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux - who naturally finished with the 1st and 2nd Team selections at Center.


1987-88 (Scott Stevens): Incredibly likely

For his next trick, Messier finished top-5 in scoring again in Mario Lemieux's 168-point Art Ross season, but this time, placed 3rd in even-strength scoring behind just Gretzky and Lemieux - recording 70 even-strength points in 77 games to Lemieux's 74 even-strength points in 77 games.



Now I make it a policy not to say anything bad about Scott Stevens (and I certainly wouldn't say his name three times while looking into a mirror), but I don't think he would edge out Messier here. I wouldn't give it the ol' Mark Messier guarantee though, because in Wayne Gretzky's absence, you'd like to see Messier pick up the spare Hart votes that instead went to 75-GP Grant Fuhr.


1996-97 (Brian Leetch): Likely

The second of Messier's late career goal-scoring-resurgence seasons, which saw him finish marginally ahead of 2nd Team All-Star Center Wayne Gretzky in points-per-game production (71 games vs. 82 games - so it wasn't a substantial absence by any means). But rather than Mario Lemieux and Messier's teammate Wayne Gretzky, Bourque's top competition was Messier's other teammate, Brian Leetch, who while winning pretty decisively over Sandis Ozolinsh was somewhat taking a backseat to the Messier/Gretzky tandem.



While Messier's 11-games spread across forced timeouts and back issues resulted in him conceding the 2nd Team All-Star selection to Wayne Gretzky, if put head-to-head against Brian Leetch instead, I would bet on Messier.


1981-82 (Doug Wilson): Coin Flip

The first Messier breakout, where as a Left Wing, Messier's 50-goal season (3rd in even-strength goal-scoring behind Wayne Gretzky and Mike Bossy) secured a 1st Team All-Star selection with 25/63 1st-place votes while Doug Wilson edged out 65-GP Bourque with 29/63 1st-place votes. The first of three-consecutive All-Star selections on Left Wing, this pre-peak Messier probably could have coasted to several more had he never been switched to a more difficult position to acquire these accolades (which is kind of the point of this exercise).


...so am I crazy? Would four-time 1st Team All-Star Mark Messier, if held against the same competition against which five-time Norris winner Ray Bourque competed for his positional accolades, have been selected the top player in 5-7 seasons?

Bourque's and Messier's peak years overlapped nearly perfectly (~1987 to ~1994) and my recollection is that Messier was generally more highly regarded during that timeframe. Not by a large margin, though...both guys were in the top group of five or six players at the time (Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Roy, Bourque/Yzerman, in that order). The two most serious ranking projects you quoted (the THN ones) more or less bear that out. While Bourque ranks higher amongst defenceman than Messier does amongst centres, I'd have a difficult time ranking Bourque above Messier - which is I think what you're getting at here.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Mark Messier vs. Ray Bourque

So I kinda peaked four months early on this one, because I didn't expect these two players to be available at the same time. At any rate, to recap where we left off in August, ol' quoipourquoi took on the value of All-Star selections at Center, Left Wing, and Defense (and talked some general **** about Defensemen).

For the voting group and future readers, here's a few excerpts from that discussion followed by some new content:

*********

THN (1998)
12. Messier
14. Bourque

ESPN (2004)
11. Messier
12. Bourque

THN-60 Since 67 (2007)
4. Messier
8. Bourque

The Score (2017)
5. Messier
17. Bourque

USA Today (2017)
8. Messier
16. Bourque

Don’t get me wrong; all of these lists since their careers are, as a whole, pretty awful and inconsistent. But there’s not going to be anyone who has seen Mark Messier and not Ray Bourque or vice-versa because it’s the same career overlap. And yet, there may be a complete absence of a media list with the reverse order - that is to say, Bourque over Messier.

If the gap between the two is that big, how did it escape basically every collective assigned with the same task except this forum? Pretty similar Hart distribution. Probably no way to present a playoff argument for Bourque. The chief difference in Bourque’s favor seems to be that there are fewer Bourque-level defensemen historically than there are Messier-level forwards. Which probably would be huge had they not played at the exact same time over which Messier was received marginally better.

It’s just asking for a lot of people to have been completely wrong in their assessment in the moment, immediate aftermath, and the decades-after reflections. I’ve seen it characterized as 1997ish Messier-mania, but... it hasn’t ended in establishment circles. They gave him an award. Throughout NHL 100, they brought him alongside Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux now that Howe has passed. How many times has he presented the Hart Trophy? He’s that guy.

If he was competing for awards against Bourque’s competition for accolades (1982 Doug Wilson, 1987 Mark Howe, 1988 Scott Stevens, 1990 Al MacInnis, 1992 Brian Leetch, 1996 Chris Chelios, and 1997 Brian Leetch) would he have any less than the equivalent to what amounts to five Norris Trophies?

*********

So let's dive into the individual seasons of my theory that Mark Messier = Value of 5-7 Norris Trophies if he competed against the same field against which Ray Bourque competed for his positional awards.


1989-90 (Al MacInnis): A lock

Probably the easiest season of the comparison - one where Mark Messier took the first of two 1st Team selections at Center. Had he been competing against Bourque's field of competition led by Al MacInnis, Messier would have clearly come out on top.


1991-92 (Brian Leetch): A virtual lock

The near-unanimous Hart season in Messier's second of two 1st Team selections at Center. I'd say it's a virtual lock because while the Hart was won with a 67 to 2 vote over everybody, the All-Star selection over Lemieux, Gretzky, and Roenick was 38 to 20, 3, and 4 respectively; so there was definitely an element of "most valuable" vs. best. However, Ray Bourque's top competition for the Norris was Mark Messier's own teammate, so I can't see Messier not being rated higher if put to a vote.


1995-96 (Chris Chelios): Incredibly likely

Mark Messier had some legit Hart buzz going into the final stretch of 1995-96, ultimately finishing 2nd in Hart voting to Mario Lemieux, and 3rd in All-Star voting to the other Hart nominee, Eric Lindros.



However this wasn't exactly a light year for Bourque's Norris competition, seeing Chris Chelios take the trophy in a 72-point campaign. The Blackhawks did take somewhat of a step back as this was the first time since 1989-90 that they didn't lead the Western Conference in GA (finishing 39 GA back of Detroit), but practically none of the blowback went on Chelios. Even still, given that Messier finished 1st (10) or 2nd (15) on 46% of the Hart ballots in Lemieux's 161-point season, I don't see the voters not siding with him over the field of defensemen.


1986-87 (Mark Howe): Incredibly likely

For clarification, this is not the signature Mark Howe season (that was in 1985-86) but rather the season where Howe played in 69 games with split attention with Ron Hextall. Messier, in what could be considered his wait-I-thought-you-already-had-a-breakout-season-what's-this season, finished 3rd in points as well as 3rd in points-per-game to Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux - who naturally finished with the 1st and 2nd Team selections at Center.


1987-88 (Scott Stevens): Incredibly likely

For his next trick, Messier finished top-5 in scoring again in Mario Lemieux's 168-point Art Ross season, but this time, placed 3rd in even-strength scoring behind just Gretzky and Lemieux - recording 70 even-strength points in 77 games to Lemieux's 74 even-strength points in 77 games.



Now I make it a policy not to say anything bad about Scott Stevens (and I certainly wouldn't say his name three times while looking into a mirror), but I don't think he would edge out Messier here. I wouldn't give it the ol' Mark Messier guarantee though, because in Wayne Gretzky's absence, you'd like to see Messier pick up the spare Hart votes that instead went to 75-GP Grant Fuhr.


1996-97 (Brian Leetch): Likely

The second of Messier's late career goal-scoring-resurgence seasons, which saw him finish marginally ahead of 2nd Team All-Star Center Wayne Gretzky in points-per-game production (71 games vs. 82 games - so it wasn't a substantial absence by any means). But rather than Mario Lemieux and Messier's teammate Wayne Gretzky, Bourque's top competition was Messier's other teammate, Brian Leetch, who while winning pretty decisively over Sandis Ozolinsh was somewhat taking a backseat to the Messier/Gretzky tandem.



While Messier's 11-games spread across forced timeouts and back issues resulted in him conceding the 2nd Team All-Star selection to Wayne Gretzky, if put head-to-head against Brian Leetch instead, I would bet on Messier.


1981-82 (Doug Wilson): Coin Flip

The first Messier breakout, where as a Left Wing, Messier's 50-goal season (3rd in even-strength goal-scoring behind Wayne Gretzky and Mike Bossy) secured a 1st Team All-Star selection with 25/63 1st-place votes while Doug Wilson edged out 65-GP Bourque with 29/63 1st-place votes. The first of three-consecutive All-Star selections on Left Wing, this pre-peak Messier probably could have coasted to several more had he never been switched to a more difficult position to acquire these accolades (which is kind of the point of this exercise).


...so am I crazy? Would four-time 1st Team All-Star Mark Messier, if held against the same competition against which five-time Norris winner Ray Bourque competed for his positional accolades, have been selected the top player in 5-7 seasons?

I'd say the last two are coin flips, but otherwise you're not crazy.

The first part of your post is also revealing, where everyone ranked Messier over Bourque, which is how I would have ranked them in 2010 before registering to this board (still do).Of course a similar analysis for the whole career would be interesting, but I know it's hard work.

In any case, Messier's playoff record is much better than Bourque's, and his star power shone brighter, and this time Bourque doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from having peaked at the same as Wayne and Mario, because so did Messier.

I gotta say, this way of comparing forwards and defensemen opens a huge can of worms, and I like it.

 

[bobholly39]

I'd do deeper research and see two names :
Michael Neuvirth and Brian Elliott.

And THAT Flyers defense.

And see that Crosby got his point in blowouts.

Do we do that for other strong playoff runs of players here? How good were the goalies and defenders in the playoffs that Potvin faced in his best runs? How about Messier? Think we're being a bit too harsh on active players in recent runs we remember.

Philly was 16th in goals against that year - that's league average. Washington was 15th. One rank higher.

Both Elliott and Neuvirth had better sv% than Holtby that season too.

 

[MXD]

Do we do that for other strong playoff runs of players here? How good were the goalies and defenders in the playoffs that Potvin faced in his best runs? How about Messier? Think we're being a bit too harsh on active players in recent runs we remember.

Philly was 16th in goals against that year - that's league average. Washington was 15th. One rank higher.

Both Elliott and Neuvirth had better sv% than Holtby that season too.

"I don't do so myself, because the sole reason why I'm participating is to discredit active players."

... Says and thinks absolutely no one.

And understand that I'm actually arguing against a player that I am, at this point, considering the best skater in this group. There are things that move the needle : to me, scoring lots of points against a VERY suspect team isn't one of them. If anything, his performance against the Caps probably adds more.