Top 100 Forwards in the NHL

[RedWingzz]

rantanen pettersson lindholm and drouin way too high

Pettersson is a funny one. I having people telling me I ranked him way too high, and people telling me I ranked him way too low. This tells me a that the jury is still out on him, and that after his sample size, it's obvious he is extremely talented, but we need more data to accurately assess where he belongs.

I don't know how Rantanen is "way too high" after back to back seasons in the 80s. Yeah Mackinnon is the motor on the line, but Rantanen can hold his own.

Lindholm perhaps is a bit high based on only 1 good year, but I liked him even when he was struggling in Carolina, and I think he's a safe bet to hit 65-70 points again. I doubt he flirts with a point per game again, but he proved he is a good player.

Drouin, yeah I acknowledge earlier in the thread that he shouldn't be here. I've always liked him, but he hasn't shown enough yet.

 

[nbwingsfan]

He joined in February, close to the end of the season. Although, fine, 2 PPG seasons for Bergeron then.

Man, I really don't know how else to say this. Having 3 great players on a line boosts everyone up. Pastrnak is one of the best wingers in the game, and adding him to two other solid players can easily boost them by 20-25 points. We see it all the time - check the Colorado top line. 3 players is much harder to shut down than 2 players. Couple that with increased scoring league wide, and I don't see why you find it so unbelievable that they can score 30+ more points in a season.

I think I'm done with this conversation then. If you truly think that Bergeron is better than Matthews offensively, then great.

I’ve actually never once said he’s better offensively, I actually agree Matthews is ether there. I’ve said they are quite similar over the last two seasons. Not a big enough gap to overcome the big difference in defensive game.

 

[nbwingsfan]

13 playoff games head-to-head and Bergeron way out ahead, yet TSN and this list always put Matthews ahead. When does he actually have to show he's better? Because if anyone is watching the games, one guy is controlling everything when he's out there. Another guy is getting lit up defensively and can't help a historically bad PK because he's useless at killing penalties.

It’s really only 7 games head to head, where yes Bergeron dominated, since this past season Bergeron was mostly used against Tavares.

 

[BruinsBtn]

It’s really only 7 games head to head, where yes Bergeron dominated, since this past season Bergeron was mostly used against Tavares.

So you're telling me that Matthews finished -3 in the series and against second-line matchups? And I'm supposed to believe this guy is a top-10 player in the league? A guy who doesn't kill penalties? Who doesn't keep the puck out of his net?

I'm not taking anything away from his shot, it's all-world. And he can hold onto the puck as well as anyone in a long time. But if you want a guy to win you a hockey game, it's Bergeron in a laugher. The results speak for themselves. How anyone could have Matthews ahead of Bergeron after just watching both of them in the playoffs is madness.

 

[Trap Jesus]

But the same timeline you're talking about is the exact same time-line as to when Pastrnak joined them. You may think that they all broke out because of Cassidy, but I think that's far less likely. Bergeron consistently in the past had chances to show he was elite offensively as their #1 centerman, but never did. I'm not saying he's not a good offensive player still. Obviously he is, and one of the best two way players int he game.

This whole conversation started with someone saying Bergeron is better than Matthews offensively and that's not the case. In the 3 years since Matthews has been in the league, he's done better than Bergeron. Even if you want to use Cassidy as the excuse for Bergerons breakout and not Pastrnak, you have to admit still that Pastrnak and Marchand still have some positive effect on him, and Matthews does not have that luxury, yet has still done better.

Bergeron and Marchand played with Seguin for 2 full seasons in 2011/12 and 2012/3, who, after he left Boston, immediately became more than a point per game player.

 

[Madap]

I’ve actually never once said he’s better offensively, I actually agree Matthews is ether there. I’ve said they are quite similar over the last two seasons. Not a big enough gap to overcome the big difference in defensive game.

That's fair then. I think there us, but I doubt we'll change each others minds anyway. Agree to disagree.

 

[Madap]

Bergeron and Marchand played with Seguin for 2 full seasons in 2011/12 and 2012/3, who, after he left Boston, immediately became more than a point per game player.

He was still a 60 point player when he played with them though. It's completely normal for young players to have jumps like that, especially when they are 2nd overalls. I would bet that most of that improvement is due to normal progression and not necessarily a change in system.

 

[Trap Jesus]

He was still a 60 point player when he played with them though. It's completely normal for young players to have jumps like that, especially when they are 2nd overalls. I would bet that most of that improvement is due to normal progression and not necessarily a change in system.

But why was he a 60 point player? I'm not saying he didn't improve as he went to Dallas, but there's no question that how Julien used them impacted their numbers. Seguin went from 32 points in 48 games in his last year in Boston to 84 points in 80 games his first year in Dallas. It's not like he hadn't showcased his talent before, he led the Bruins in scoring his 2nd year. Lucic-Krejci-Horton was the "1st line" during those years, where they got more ES ice time and were utilized in more offensive situations. They were also balancing the ice time on the PP much more during those years, with Bergeron, Seguin, Krejci and Horton all getting similar PP time, with Lucic and Marchand lagging just behind.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Pettersson is a funny one. I having people telling me I ranked him way too high, and people telling me I ranked him way too low. This tells me a that the jury is still out on him, and that after his sample size, it's obvious he is extremely talented, but we need more data to accurately assess where he belongs.

I don't know how Rantanen is "way too high" after back to back seasons in the 80s. Yeah Mackinnon is the motor on the line, but Rantanen can hold his own.

Lindholm perhaps is a bit high based on only 1 good year, but I liked him even when he was struggling in Carolina, and I think he's a safe bet to hit 65-70 points again. I doubt he flirts with a point per game again, but he proved he is a good player.

Drouin, yeah I acknowledge earlier in the thread that he shouldn't be here. I've always liked him, but he hasn't shown enough yet.

lindholm's advanced stuff has all stayed the same (pretty average) since his carolina days, he just went on a secondary assist+PP point bender that will regress imo

i wont get into why i think rantanen is overrated for the zillionth time

 

[Machinehead]

I'm not saying Kreider is definitely a top 100 forward but there's an armfull of guys up there I take Kreider over.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

The good old PPG, P/60 and G/60 strikes again ! Good lord how both those stats are overused by Matthews and Eichel fans both who never scored more than 85pts. Sure Eichel the 82 pts career high is closer to Mcdavid than the guy that went two straight seasons with 97 and 99 pts. Thanks for the laugh. As for the last part, Avs are as inexperienced as the Flames. That was their second playoffs appearance in 5 years while Flames got to play two years ago. Terrible excuse to use for a team that was just badly outplayed. Give credit where it's due maybe the Avs were just that good at holding down Gaudreau and Monahan.

So is 82 in 77 on BUFFALO after 57 in 61 and 64 in 67 supposed to make Mackinnon a 97 and 99 with Rantanen and landeskog the best line in the league with a good mobile puck moving D supposed to be night and day different, especially since Mackinnon never even sniffed 82 Pts or even 65 pts when he was eichels age and when in similar circumstances. -(putting up very sub par numbers on teams that scored league low totals) Four seasons of less then stellar play and now he’s a top 3 player after Rantanen helps double his
Production, It’s ridiculous. And pretty sure points per game is not some obscure stat thrown around by Matthews and Eichel fans it’s an extremely useful too to say how productive a player is if the sample size is over at least 55 games or more which eichels was in each occasion. Keep laughing though, knock your socks off. The 5 on 5 per 69 is stretching it sure, but I never said that, I just said points per game. It’s totally unfair to compare someone’s point totals if they played 60 and a full season, just like if someone’s on the highest scoring line or on the lowest scoring team. Again, Mackinnon never hit eichels highs at his age and Eichel was on pace for three 80 pt seasons even in those extremely awful circumstances where Mackinnon proved he couldn’t get more then 55-60 in a full season. Did you know in eichels second season after returning from a sprained ankle he outscored Mackinnon after jack played just 61 games, meanwhile Mack played the entire season and WAS IN HIS 5th year and still managed less points. But keep laughing. I deal with facts.

 

[Machinehead]

Overall, I think it's a decent list, though. Wanted to mention that.

 

[Madap]

But why was he a 60 point player? I'm not saying he didn't improve as he went to Dallas, but there's no question that how Julien used them impacted their numbers. Seguin went from 32 points in 48 games in his last year in Boston to 84 points in 80 games his first year in Dallas. It's not like he hadn't showcased his talent before, he led the Bruins in scoring his 2nd year. Lucic-Krejci-Horton was the "1st line" during those years, where they got more ES ice time and were utilized in more offensive situations. They were also balancing the ice time on the PP much more during those years, with Bergeron, Seguin, Krejci and Horton all getting similar PP time, with Lucic and Marchand lagging just behind.

What do you mean? He was on average a 60 point player his first two years, and then improved his play when he went to Dallas. Sure, partially usage but also natural progression.

But yes, I remember those years where Krejci and BErgeron were 1A/1B. But Krejci has had many injury problems and Bergeron had many opportunities to step up and show he can produce like a PPG player, but he never did.

I do see your point though. Bergeron's offensive improvement certainly coincide with Cassidy becoming head coach, but that's the same time he decided to put Pastrnak with Bergeron and Marchand. He wasn't the same before. If he was some offensive star, I'm sure he would have been used like one in one of his previous 10+ seasons in the NHL. When players have elite offensive talent, it's noticeable very early in their career - not when they're 33 years old. Matthews has it. Bergeron does not. Take Marchand and Pastrnak away from Bergeron, and with Cassidy as head coach, you will have a 55/60 point player again. Matthews is ppg in the same situation.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

I'm not saying Kreider is definitely a top 100 forward but there's an armfull of guys up there I take Kreider over.

just say it kreider is top 100

as is gourde

 

[VoluntaryDom]

What do you mean? He was on average a 60 point player his first two years, and then improved his play when he went to Dallas. Sure, partially usage but also natural progression.

But yes, I remember those years where Krejci and BErgeron were 1A/1B. But Krejci has had many injury problems and Bergeron had many opportunities to step up and show he can produce like a PPG player, but he never did.

I do see your point though. Bergeron's offensive improvement certainly coincide with Cassidy becoming head coach, but that's the same time he decided to put Pastrnak with Bergeron and Marchand. He wasn't the same before. If he was some offensive star, I'm sure he would have been used like one in one of his previous 10+ seasons in the NHL. When players have elite offensive talent, it's noticeable very early in their career - not when they're 33 years old. Matthews has it. Bergeron does not. Take Marchand and Pastrnak away from Bergeron, and with Cassidy as head coach, you will have a 55/60 point player again. Matthews is ppg in the same situation.

that works both ways. remove bergeron from marchand and marchand would get run over defensively

 

[Machinehead]

just say it kreider is top 100

as is gourde

I mean, for me, he's unquestionably a first liner, so yeah.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

I mean, for me, he's unquestionably a first liner, so yeah.

what is your opinion on yanni g? drives play well over a large sample and scores well though i dont think he ever repeats 1.9+ p1/60 again

 

[Machinehead]

what is your opinion on yanni g? drives play well over a large sample and scores well though i dont think he ever repeats 1.9+ p1/60 again

I'll give him a close look when I get to a computer later.

I'm out right now and the stats sites on mobile make me wanna swallow nails.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

I'll give him a close look when I get to a computer later.

I'm out right now and the stats sites on mobile make me wanna swallow nails.

looks to me like a slightly worse Kreider

 

[Madap]

that works both ways. remove bergeron from marchand and marchand would get run over defensively

Well I don't know about run over, but yeah, I definitely get your point. I'm really not trying to take away anything from anyone on that line. All 3 are great players and compliment each other perfectly. It's the best line in hockey for a reason. I just don't think any of them are of Matthews calibre offensively.

 

[Machinehead]

View attachment 247613
looks to me like a slightly worse Kreider

From the eye test, I hear his name constantly when I watch the Lightning. That can actually be a terrible thing depending on the case, but it's probably a great thing if the numbers back it up.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

From the eye test, I hear his name constantly when I watch the Lightning. That can actually be a terrible thing depending on the case, but it's probably a great thing if the numbers back it up.

you hear his name because he is one of our only forwards who can consistently carry the puck up ice, hes also a very fast player and a tenacious forechecker. in the offensive zone he can win puck battles and is a good passer and has a good shot but his best attribute is his hockey IQ/positioning. he is always in the right place. his shooting percentage looked crazy in 17-18 but if you actually watched his goals many were tap ins into empty sides of the net, and he also missed some of those tap ins.

 

[Scrantonicity 2]

So why would oveckin be top 10 basically same player but Matthews is a center.

Not saying your wrong about Matthews but I feel Ovie is overrated a lot.

Best goal scorer of all time getting overrated lmao yeah okay.

 

[SG1990]

So is 82 in 77 on BUFFALO after 57 in 61 and 64 in 67 supposed to make Mackinnon a 97 and 99 with Rantanen and landeskog the best line in the league with a good mobile puck moving D supposed to be night and day different, especially since Mackinnon never even sniffed 82 Pts or even 65 pts when he was eichels age and when in similar circumstances. -(putting up very sub par numbers on teams that scored league low totals) Four seasons of less then stellar play and now he’s a top 3 player after Rantanen helps double his
Production, It’s ridiculous. And pretty sure points per game is not some obscure stat thrown around by Matthews and Eichel fans it’s an extremely useful too to say how productive a player is if the sample size is over at least 55 games or more which eichels was in each occasion. Keep laughing though, knock your socks off. The 5 on 5 per 69 is stretching it sure, but I never said that, I just said points per game. It’s totally unfair to compare someone’s point totals if they played 60 and a full season, just like if someone’s on the highest scoring line or on the lowest scoring team. Again, Mackinnon never hit eichels highs at his age and Eichel was on pace for three 80 pt seasons even in those extremely awful circumstances where Mackinnon proved he couldn’t get more then 55-60 in a full season. Did you know in eichels second season after returning from a sprained ankle he outscored Mackinnon after jack played just 61 games, meanwhile Mack played the entire season and WAS IN HIS 5th year and still managed less points. But keep laughing. I deal with facts.

Obviously you don’t deal with facts because That was MacKinnon’s 4th year, not 5th. He’s only 2 years older than Eichel. Mac also had a better rookie year than Eichel. So all in all MacKinnon only had 3 okay years and then exploded. Development isn’t linear.

 

[Spilot23]

So is 82 in 77 on BUFFALO after 57 in 61 and 64 in 67 supposed to make Mackinnon a 97 and 99 with Rantanen and landeskog the best line in the league with a good mobile puck moving D supposed to be night and day different, especially since Mackinnon never even sniffed 82 Pts or even 65 pts when he was eichels age and when in similar circumstances. -(putting up very sub par numbers on teams that scored league low totals) Four seasons of less then stellar play and now he’s a top 3 player after Rantanen helps double his
Production, It’s ridiculous. And pretty sure points per game is not some obscure stat thrown around by Matthews and Eichel fans it’s an extremely useful too to say how productive a player is if the sample size is over at least 55 games or more which eichels was in each occasion. Keep laughing though, knock your socks off. The 5 on 5 per 69 is stretching it sure, but I never said that, I just said points per game. It’s totally unfair to compare someone’s point totals if they played 60 and a full season, just like if someone’s on the highest scoring line or on the lowest scoring team. Again, Mackinnon never hit eichels highs at his age and Eichel was on pace for three 80 pt seasons even in those extremely awful circumstances where Mackinnon proved he couldn’t get more then 55-60 in a full season. Did you know in eichels second season after returning from a sprained ankle he outscored Mackinnon after jack played just 61 games, meanwhile Mack played the entire season and WAS IN HIS 5th year and still managed less points. But keep laughing. I deal with facts.

You deal with facts yeah but old ones. Mackinnon just developed into one of the best player that is also one fact and recent one. As alot of people here love to say : development isn’t linear. Can Eichel be better than Mack? Yeah maybe but at this point this is just bunch of excuses and pace while Mack is doing the actual production. Yeah his linemates are good but so does alot of these stars, Mcdavid (Draisaitl 105pts) Kane (Debrincat 76pts), Kucherov (Point 92pts), Marner (Tavares 88pts), Barkov (Huberdeau 92pts) but hey I guess the only one overrated there is Mack leeching off Rantanen (87pts). Now that Eichel has Dahlin excuses will have to stop at some point and we should see actual results not called pace, PPG or p/60.