Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo (MOD WARNINGS: Post #12/#900)

[ManUtdTobbe]

i hate to continually bash pionk but he has been a dumpster fire 5v5 so far this year @ManUtdTobbe can provide the stats to back this up

just because he has put up a few points on the PP doesnt necessarily mean he has played well this year, every time i watch him out there i cringe

Last i checked all his relative numbers (CF%, GF%, xGF%) were worse then -10%

 

[Blue Blooded]

Last i checked all his relative numbers (CF%, GF%, xGF%) were worse then -10%

Currently at -10.83, -21.78, and -12.73 respectively according to Corsica.

For reference, the worst 400+ minute defenceman last year was Steven Santini who had a RelCF% of -12.33, no one else broke -10 on the season. The worst 1,000+ minute defenceman (Justin Braun) had -8.09.

The same for RelxGF% was Santini (-11.96) and Hayden Fleury (-10.12).

And just like I generally consider it less of a feat to put up a good Rel% on a poor team, I consider it more of a feat (in the negative regard) to put up a bad Rel% on a poor team.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Currently at -10.83, -21.78, and -12.73 respectively according to Corsica.

For reference, the worst 400+ minute defenceman last year was Steven Santini who had a RelCF% of -12.33, no one else broke -10 on the season. The worst 1,000+ minute defenceman (Justin Braun) had -8.09.

The same for RelxGF% was Santini (-11.96) and Hayden Fleury (-10.12).

And just like I generally consider it less of a feat to put up a good Rel% on a poor team, I consider it more of a feat (in the negative regard) to put up a bad Rel% on a poor team.

Just to clarify these are Pionk's numbers not DeAngelo's, right?

 

[Blue Blooded]

Just to clarify these are Pionk's numbers not DeAngelo's, right?

Yes, Pionk's numbers. We took a little detour there.

 

[Levitate]

Probably the biggest difference is that I don't expect most of the current defense (Smith, Staal, McQuaid etc.) being part of the core going forward. They have been reduced to trade chips and ballast. We know who they are. Their time is coming to an end. If the coaching staff wouldn't put D'Angelo in the lineup ahead of the guys in front of him, they weren't very impressed either.

He has his chance now and coming off a good game, has earned a longer look.

And Gardner, you are right. I hated this deal from the minute I heard it. (I was driving through west Texas and I almost ran off the road) I still hate it. I've got to live with it though and I'm hoping for the best. I really am. I do however chuckle at some of the platitudes tossed ADA's way.

I know it sounds dumb to be random internet person sitting here saying "yeah well sometimes coaches are wrong" but it IS something that we see again and again in this league and in pro sports in general. Coaches, GMs, etc, are often wrong about players that may have a game that's a little different than the mindset that the coaches have.

I think DeAngelo is not given any slack for how he plays...he makes a mistake it's a BIG DEAL. If Marc Staal, Brendan Smith, Brady Skjei, Neil Pionk, Adam McQuaid ll make a mistake, it's OK look how much effort they give. If Pavel Buchnevich glides on the ice here and there he's a lazy POS who isn't engaged without the puck and should be moved down the lineup or scratched even if he likely could put up 50+ points given top six minutes, but Jimmy Vesey man have you seen how that guy hustles even if he is mediocre as all hell at scoring goals and his defense isn't anything to write home about?

If we're going to be a grind it out dump the puck be afraid to make a single mistake "no talent" style of team then let's hurry up and trade DeAngelo, Buchnevich, Chytil, Kravtsov, etc. Demanding that your most talented rookie players be near perfect and make no mistakes is a good way to Sanguinetti them all

IDGAF if DeAngelo makes some defensive zone mistakes if he spends more time attacking, generating scoring chances, putting up points, etc. I'd rather a couple of mistakes than watch the rest of the D chase their tails in their own end, fail to break the puck out, and just end up spending all their time defending even if they "do it well".

I dunno, I'm getting grumpy about this. He's never going to be perfect in his own zone, but he's shown he is an effective puck mover who generates chances and the points have also started coming for him this season. If this team wants to develop an offensive defenseman, well here he is.

 

[nyr2k2]

I mean, we still don't know "what he needs to do" in practice to get back out on the ice consistently. It could be an attitude change, more commitment to practicing, something to do with his defensive zone play, or some other completely different things. We've been mad the entire time he's been out without actually knowing why he has been held out.

It's possible that if we knew, people would be less critical of him being held out; it's also possible we'd be more upset. But we don't know.

 

[offdacrossbar]

I know it sounds dumb to be random internet person sitting here saying "yeah well sometimes coaches are wrong" but it IS something that we see again and again in this league and in pro sports in general. Coaches, GMs, etc, are often wrong about players that may have a game that's a little different than the mindset that the coaches have.

I think DeAngelo is not given any slack for how he plays...he makes a mistake it's a BIG DEAL. If Marc Staal, Brendan Smith, Brady Skjei, Neil Pionk, Adam McQuaid ll make a mistake, it's OK look how much effort they give. If Pavel Buchnevich glides on the ice here and there he's a lazy POS who isn't engaged without the puck and should be moved down the lineup or scratched even if he likely could put up 50+ points given top six minutes, but Jimmy Vesey man have you seen how that guy hustles even if he is mediocre as all hell at scoring goals and his defense isn't anything to write home about?

If we're going to be a grind it out dump the puck be afraid to make a single mistake "no talent" style of team then let's hurry up and trade DeAngelo, Buchnevich, Chytil, Kravtsov, etc. Demanding that your most talented rookie players be near perfect and make no mistakes is a good way to Sanguinetti them all

IDGAF if DeAngelo makes some defensive zone mistakes if he spends more time attacking, generating scoring chances, putting up points, etc. I'd rather a couple of mistakes than watch the rest of the D chase their tails in their own end, fail to break the puck out, and just end up spending all their time defending even if they "do it well".

I dunno, I'm getting grumpy about this. He's never going to be perfect in his own zone, but he's shown he is an effective puck mover who generates chances and the points have also started coming for him this season. If this team wants to develop an offensive defenseman, well here he is.

preach brutha

 

[Levitate]

I mean, we still don't know "what he needs to do" in practice to get back out on the ice consistently. It could be an attitude change, more commitment to practicing, something to do with his defensive zone play, or some other completely different things. We've been mad the entire time he's been out without actually knowing why he has been held out.

It's possible that if we knew, people would be less critical of him being held out; it's also possible we'd be more upset. But we don't know.

Did the coaches say that he needs to do something in practice to get back on the ice or is this all just from people speculating reasons why he's been a scratch so much?

 

[CasusBelli]

Did the coaches say that he needs to do something in practice to get back on the ice or is this all just from people speculating reasons why he's been a scratch so much?

I think it’s the latter, based on 1) that he looked at least fine throughout, 2) our staff determines lineups based on practice performance. So, if he looks fine on the ice, the issue must be in practice.

It’s a reasonable argument, to which I admit to have subscribed, if simplistic and prone to error.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

So I asked where this whole "Practice problem" source was and got no response. Should i assume it was just some made up thing from someone here that got legs?

 

[Machinehead]

It's possible that there's something in practice he needs to do better.

It's also possible that it's just an NHL coach being dumb. It would only be 8 quadrillionth time.

 

[Off Sides]

So I asked where this whole "Practice problem" source was and got no response. Should i assume it was just some made up thing from someone here that got legs?

4:32

It's about all the info I have seen.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Yea it all stems from the most blatant non-answer coach speak cliche. "I talked to him. He knows what he has to do."

Some on here expanded on that by including another coach speak cliche, the classic, "We judge by games and practices too" and the formidable past time of coaches on shit team "We trying to build a culture"

So piece those 3 quotes/paraphrasing of quotes together and you get ADA doesn't practice hard enough. And then you can bring in all of ADA's past transgressions.

In reality the only quote that was directly applied to ADA is the first and most generic. Everything else is a reach or purposeful ignorance to put forward an agenda.

 

[nyr2k2]

Yea it all stems from the most blatant non-answer coach speak cliche. "I talked to him. He knows what he has to do."

Some on here expanded on that by including another coach speak cliche, the classic, "We judge by games and practices too" and the formidable past time of coaches on **** team "We trying to build a culture"

So piece those 3 quotes/paraphrasing of quotes together and you get ADA doesn't practice hard enough. And then you can bring in all of ADA's past transgressions.

In reality the only quote that was directly applied to ADA is the first and most generic. Everything else is a reach or purposeful ignorance to put forward an agenda.

Okay but the same applies to "he's being kept out because the coach thinks he makes too many defensive mistakes and yet other guys get to make mistakes and they play." So your statement there, it cuts both ways. No one knows either way and everyone was (and IS) speculating.

 

[offdacrossbar]

i get the feeling that coach Q isnt a big fan of Tony D.

even after he was asked about his good play after the kings debacle, his response was bland and terse.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

4:32

It's about all the info I have seen.

Thanks.

 

[Rempe73]

i get the feeling that coach Q isnt a big fan of Tony D.

even after he was asked about his good play after the kings debacle, his response was bland and terse.

Maybe he was just pissed about the result of the game.

In any case, Quinn needs to relax.

 

[nyr2k2]

4:32

It's about all the info I have seen.

Correct, which was preceded by this quote:

“Tony knows what he needs to do,” first-year coach David Quinn said before the game. “We’ve had good conversations, and he knows what’s expected of him. He knows what he needs to do to get back in the lineup.”

https://nypost.com/2018/10/22/rangers-defenseman-in-limbo-after-yet-another-scratch/

 

[Off Sides]

Correct, which was preceded by this quote:

“Tony knows what he needs to do,” first-year coach David Quinn said before the game. “We’ve had good conversations, and he knows what’s expected of him. He knows what he needs to do to get back in the lineup.”

https://nypost.com/2018/10/22/rangers-defenseman-in-limbo-after-yet-another-scratch/

I still do not know why there are like two quotes in total about DeAngelo.

Every other prospects gets a lot more quotes from the coach and GM.

I have looked my hardest and I just can not find anything like this following quote about Buch concerning DeAngelo.

“Sometimes it takes a little longer,” Quinn said. “Nobody has lost faith in him. There’s a growth process. Pavel has a lot of talent. We just have to get it out of him.”

https://nypost.com/2018/10/29/rangers-desperate-to-find-a-way-to-eliminate-mental-mistakes/

 

[aufheben]

i get the feeling that coach Q isnt a big fan of Tony D.

even after he was asked about his good play after the kings debacle, his response was bland and terse.

I get a hint of this from Joe, too, although that's probably confirmation bias.

Also possibly confirmation bias and/or lack of knowledge, but I think DeAngelo has actually been quite solid defensively, (pre-season and season). What specifically has he had issues with, re: defensive play? Not positing here, genuinely curious what others are seeing.

So I asked where this whole "Practice problem" source was and got no response. Should i assume it was just some made up thing from someone here that got legs?

Some speculation there, I don't think many people have been stating it as fact.

 

[Rempe73]

I get a hint of this from Joe, too, although that's probably confirmation bias.

Dave Maloney too, when he was saying DeAngelo should be following in the footsteps of Pionk, or using him as an example, or something like that. After the Kings game, of all games.

 

[aufheben]

Dave Maloney too, when he was saying DeAngelo should be following in the footsteps of Pionk, or using him as an example, or something like that. After the Kings game, of all games.

I noticed he poked some fun at Vally for his usage of stats, but that is a whole separate topic.

 

[Blue Blooded]

Dave Maloney too, when he was saying DeAngelo should be following in the footsteps of Pionk, or using him as an example, or something like that. After the Kings game, of all games.

This irritates me a lot more than it should.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

i get the feeling that coach Q isnt a big fan of Tony D.

even after he was asked about his good play after the kings debacle, his response was bland and terse.

A lot of coaches aren't fans of him. Thats where it becomes a bit of a track record.

Anyway, DeAngelo was outed as the guy who jumped on early for the too many men penalty in LA. If you want something that will drive coaches even crazier about someone, that's a prime example. He's not helping his cause with being brain dead like that.

 

[Blue Blooded]

A lot of coaches aren't fans of him. Thats where it becomes a bit of a track record.

Anyway, DeAngelo was outed as the guy who jumped on early for the too many men penalty in LA. If you want something that will drive coaches even crazier about someone, that's a prime example. He's not helping his cause with being brain dead like that.

He probably helped his cause by the 1G, 1A1, +3 stat line. He was like +30 in 5v5 RelxGF% if you put stock into such things.

But sure, he caused a penalty by being unfocused - put him on unconditional waivers immediately. Why is such a minuscule thing that happens to everyone once in a while suddenly a huge thing, especially when it was the player who should have bought himself miles of slack by his play in the very same game?

I get that you can't have a player that blatantly disrespects you as a coach. But from where I'm standing I'm only seeing what could be interpreted as blatant disrespect in the other direction. A person can only take so much before they have to tune you out for their own sanity.