Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo (MOD WARNINGS: Post #12/#900)

[nyr2k2]

I agree with you I don’t think he has much of a choice with staal.

But there’s something wrong here with his decisions regarding some of the young guys on this team.

Howden shouldn’t be getting solid 3C mins over Chytil. Just because he’s a lunch pail guy. Playing Chytil on a 4th line with Mcleod and a dumb AHLer at best in Lettieri is not doing a good job. Just isn’t.

Playing Pionk Scott Niedermayer Mins because he’s a lunch pail kid over DeAngelo or even Shattenkirk on the PP is flat out stupid.

Playing McQuaid because he’s from Boston over ANY of the above mentioned is even dumber.

I really don’t care if DeAngelo is an ass. You knew that when you dealt for him. You told all of us you did your homework on him. So the kid is talented on a team with barely any of it.

Stop playing Vesey over buchnevich too.

These are the same conversations we’d be having if AV were still here and chasing a playoff spot.

How about Georgiev playing 2 games total? Out of 12? How’s that developing our young goalie? That would put Hank around 69 games if that pace continues.

I don’t see anything from this coach that says I’m here to develop these kids. He looks like he’s desperate to sneak into the 8th spot which he never will and the vets at least the ones leaving soon are quitting on him already.

It would take half an hour to respond to all of this so I won't. If you don't like Quinn and his roster moves that's fine.

I was specifically addressing the idea that since Quinn hasn't provided a specific reason for not playing ADA, that it must then be some stupid or illegitimate reason. I wouldn't actually expect the coach to come out and say, "The kid is lazy/disrespectful/has a bad attitude/etc." I would expect him to say a bunch of nothing, like he has. That's the professional way to approach it.

But in the absence of Quinn divulging the issue with ADA, we get "Hurr durr Quinn only plays Boston guys and benches DeAngelo because Jersey and also no reason!" Which is just, I don't know.

 

[Rempe73]

This irritates me a lot more than it should.

What I wrote? Or what Dave said?

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

It would take half an hour to respond to all of this so I won't. If you don't like Quinn and his roster moves that's fine.

I was specifically addressing the idea that since Quinn hasn't provided a specific reason for not playing ADA, that it must then be some stupid or illegitimate reason. I wouldn't actually expect the coach to come out and say, "The kid is lazy/disrespectful/has a bad attitude/etc." I would expect him to say a bunch of nothing, like he has. That's the professional way to approach it.

But in the absence of Quinn divulging the issue with ADA, we get "Hurr durr Quinn only plays Boston guys and benches DeAngelo because Jersey and also no reason!" Which is just, I don't know.

Yeah, its idiotic and what people with bad arguments do.

I dunno, maybe Im getting old, but Im not quite sure what DeAngelo has done to accrue legions of fans who are willing to shit on a rookie coach 10 games into his tenure because said player isn't playing much. And I'd be saying this even without DeAngelo's well-documented history of being an immature asshole.

 

[Blue Blooded]

What I wrote? Or what Dave said?

Maloney, of course!

 

[Levitate]

Yeah, its idiotic and what people with bad arguments do.

I dunno, maybe Im getting old, but Im not quite sure what DeAngelo has done to accrue legions of fans who are willing to **** on a rookie coach 10 games into his tenure because said player isn't playing much. And I'd be saying this even without DeAngelo's well-documented history of being an immature *******.

It's pretty simple. For one, DeAngelo was a player acquired in a fairly big trade last year and people hate to see wasted assets.

Two, he is a talented player with an upside that no one else on the team or the system has (maybe Miller but that's a long ways away), so I and many others would rather be rooting FOR him rather than AGAINST him when it comes to making the team and contributing.

Three, when you have a coach playing Adam McQuaid 18-ish minutes per night and Pionk playing 22+ minutes per night despite being a liability defensively, you scratch your head wondering why these guys are getting a pass for their so so play at best and why a guy whom the coach even said "had a good camp and preseason" can't get into the lineup and seems to always be on thin ice and given no slack.

I'm not sure if three is even the point I wanted to make, lol. But ultimately it's the "this guy passes the stats test, both regular and fancy, and passes the eye test at least as well as anyone else on the time why is he getting burried when this team should be developing talented young players and honestly evaluating their contributions".

I think Quinn is scrambling because he wants to be winning games and isn't comfortable feeding his young talented players minutes yet unless they fit a certain mold he has in mind. I don't agree with it at this point and think it's bad hockey. How will it turn out? Who knows. A rookie coach has to learn and develop as well and the team will change and develop as the season goes on, but currently there are some issues.

 

[Tawnos]

@Levitate your second point is something I don't really agree with. DeAngelo's upside feels extremely overstated to me. I said this earlier in the thread, he's talented, but he's not that talented.

 

[Levitate]

@Levitate your second point is something I don't really agree with. DeAngelo's upside feels extremely overstated to me. I said this earlier in the thread, he's talented, but he's not that talented.

I mean I'm not saying he's the next Brent Burns or Erik Karlsson or something, but his ability to turn the play back up the ice and go on offense, and to control the puck in the offensive zone, are skills that NO ONE else on this team has. Some guys can move the puck well enough...Skjei is pretty good at skating it out for example, but no one has the outlet passing that DeAngelo has, and the only one with offensive instincts like him is Shattenkirk.

If he's a possible 40-50 point defenseman who can run your PP, is that not worth developing and overlooking some mistakes here and there? Could he possibly be as good as Morgan Reilly or Jake Gardiner? I think he has the skills for it. Maybe he can't be, but why not give it a shot. Those guys were/are allowed to make mistakes in their own end and in general their contributions outweigh the negatives.

If there are some serious issues behind the scenes with him then sure, that's a thing and can be understandable. From what we can see though it seems that the coach just values different playing styles and contributions than what DeAngelo brings and at this point I don't think I agree with them and where this team is headed. That may change, we'll see.

 

[lucky13]

Did the coaches say that he needs to do something in practice to get back on the ice or is this all just from people speculating reasons why he's been a scratch so much?

It was in a LB article a week or two ago

 

[Tawnos]

I mean I'm not saying he's the next Brent Burns or Erik Karlsson or something, but his ability to turn the play back up the ice and go on offense, and to control the puck in the offensive zone, are skills that NO ONE else on this team has. Some guys can move the puck well enough...Skjei is pretty good at skating it out for example, but no one has the outlet passing that DeAngelo has, and the only one with offensive instincts like him is Shattenkirk.

If he's a possible 40-50 point defenseman who can run your PP, is that not worth developing and overlooking some mistakes here and there? Could he possibly be as good as Morgan Reilly or Jake Gardiner? I think he has the skills for it. Maybe he can't be, but why not give it a shot. Those guys were/are allowed to make mistakes in their own end and in general their contributions outweigh the negatives.

If there are some serious issues behind the scenes with him then sure, that's a thing and can be understandable. From what we can see though it seems that the coach just values different playing styles and contributions than what DeAngelo brings and at this point I don't think I agree with them and where this team is headed. That may change, we'll see.

Yeah, it really doesn’t seem to me that that’s what’s happening.

I also think it’s more likely he’s JM Liles than Gardiner, if even that and much less Rielly, but Liles was still a valuable player.

On top of that, from my perspective there’s an awful lot of projecting the dissatisfaction with the previous coaching staff onto the motivations behind the actions of this coaching staff. We are 11 games into this season. It doesn’t yet seem to me like anything. Besides, for some players, the best way to develop them is to mess with their heads.

I’d rather he be in the lineup, but I just think some of the hand-wringing and downright complaining about it is unjustifiable.

 

[Gluten Free Breadman]

I agree with you I don’t think he has much of a choice with staal.

But there’s something wrong here with his decisions regarding some of the young guys on this team.

Howden shouldn’t be getting solid 3C mins over Chytil. Just because he’s a lunch pail guy. Playing Chytil on a 4th line with Mcleod and a dumb AHLer at best in Lettieri is not doing a good job. Just isn’t.

Playing Pionk Scott Niedermayer Mins because he’s a lunch pail kid over DeAngelo or even Shattenkirk on the PP is flat out stupid.

Playing McQuaid because he’s from Boston over ANY of the above mentioned is even dumber.

I really don’t care if DeAngelo is an ass. You knew that when you dealt for him. You told all of us you did your homework on him. So the kid is talented on a team with barely any of it.

Stop playing Vesey over buchnevich too.

These are the same conversations we’d be having if AV were still here and chasing a playoff spot.

How about Georgiev playing 2 games total? Out of 12? How’s that developing our young goalie? That would put Hank around 69 games if that pace continues.

I don’t see anything from this coach that says I’m here to develop these kids. He looks like he’s desperate to sneak into the 8th spot which he never will and the vets at least the ones leaving soon are quitting on him already.

Spot on with all of this. It seems obvious... But we don't know whats happening behind the scenes.

 

[Tawnos]

Spot on with all of this. It seems obvious... But we don't know whats happening behind the scenes.

Which means even though it “seems” obvious, it isn’t remotely obvious.

 

[Gluten Free Breadman]

Which means even though it “seems” obvious, it isn’t remotely obvious.

Which is why I said, But we don't know whats happening behind the scenes.

Coach Quinn's intention's are definitely for the best, but the team he is icing certainly is not the best.

 

[Rempe73]

Maloney, of course!

I like the guy, but when I watch the post-game (around 20% of the games), there were a few times where he either pushed the MSG narrative or just spewed crap out of his mouth. But to his credit, I did like the one time where he said something along the lines of, "You can't have all three of Staal, Girardi, and Klein in the lineup at once in the modern hockey era." It's strange. Sometimes he speaks the truth. Sometimes it feels like he's being told what to say.

 

[Overcast]

It's pretty simple. For one, DeAngelo was a player acquired in a fairly big trade last year and people hate to see wasted assets.

Two, he is a talented player with an upside that no one else on the team or the system has (maybe Miller but that's a long ways away), so I and many others would rather be rooting FOR him rather than AGAINST him when it comes to making the team and contributing.

Just regarding the second point: I don't think anyone here actively wants him to fail. There are a bunch that don't like him for this, that, or the other thing, but it seems that he's fighting against himself here. It's been said over and over that he has a good amount of talent that this organization lacks and needs. So if he has that talent, and produces when he plays, how come he can't stay in the lineup? Quinn has made it clear that effort is what he wants from this group. Coupled with the talk of accountability, it's hard for me to think it's something besides the way he acts/treats people. The team is seeing something we don't have the privilege to see. If the problem is indeed his attitude, whether at practice or wherever it may rear its head, I feel that they don't want to make it look like they're rewarding him directly after he spends practices pouting or slacking..maybe he thinks he's so good that he doesn't need to try in practice, and maybe that's the lens through which the coaches view his actions? If talking to him doesn't help, if trying to work with him doesn't help, they probably see sitting him as their last ditch course of action.

 

[pblawr]

Coaching a team and developing players is a lot more complicated than a lot of people are making it out to be.

1) Sure, DeAngelo is probably better than Staal. But if the whole argument is just about upgrading our defense a little bit from Staal this year, I mean, who even cares. What makes DeAngelo interesting to me is that I think he has the potential to be a very good defenseman for the team to years to come. I care about him reaching that potential, not just being a little better than Marc Staal.

2) In my opinion, DeAngelo makes an unusual amount of lazy or inattentive defensive errors. I don't think that is controversial. Sure, he might be able to get away with doing that and be better than the 7th best defenseman on an NHL lottery contender, but a) if that's it, who cares and b) those issues should be the easiest ones to fix. If you're prioritizing his long-term development, why wouldn't you try to correct them?

3) There is more to developing players than just giving them ice time regardless of what they do. DeAngelo has played 250+ games since he got drafted. What are the next 50 games going to do for DeAngelo that those 250+ games couldn't? Especially since DeAngelo doesn't seem to have developed that much across those 250+ games. If Quinn thinks he can maximize DeAngelo's development by holding him to a higher standard in practice and forcing DeAngelo to improve his work habits, why wouldn't you want to at least give him a chance to do that?

4) The decisions Quinn makes with DeAngelo affect more than just DeAngelo. If he rewards DeAngelo despite him slacking off in practice and not committing to his own development, what kind of a message does that send to Chytil, Andersson, Miller, Kravtsov, etc? What's more important for the future of this team? That Chytil, Andersson, Miller, and Kravtsov develop in an environment that instills good work ethic and practice habits in them or that DeAngelo plays an extra 30 games this year? Some organizations are much better at developing prospects than others. My personal belief is that culture is an important component of that.

I can understand if other people don't agree with my specific views on those issues, but my point is moreso that coaching a team and developing players is complex and there are a lot more factors that go into the decision to play DeAngelo than just "is he better than Staal?"

 

[Shesterkybomb]

This is a nothing year,the only goals this year are to create a work ethic amongst the group, make the kids better, and get assets for players who aren't in the long term future of the team. Every move they have made is for a reason to do with the above. Winning games hopefully becomes a byproduct of all that. The fact they are dealing with Buchnevich, Chytil and Deangelo with a similar brush stroke makes me believe they like all three of these players and are trying to develop them into the players they should be. It might not seem that way but I firmly believe that.

 

[East Coast Bias]

I like the guy, but when I watch the post-game (around 20% of the games), there were a few times where he either pushed the MSG narrative or just spewed crap out of his mouth. But to his credit, I did like the one time where he said something along the lines of, "You can't have all three of Staal, Girardi, and Klein in the lineup at once in the modern hockey era." It's strange. Sometimes he speaks the truth. Sometimes it feels like he's being told what to say.

Maybe I’m naive, but I can’t believe they’re being fed talking points.

It’s just a massively different game in many aspects from when these ex-players played. Naturally they push back against some of the newer school beliefs. Some right, some wrong.

This is something you see in every industry, everywhere. I see it daily. I’m 35 and I can’t wrap my head around some of the new school thinking in corporations and tech spheres. Some of it seems absolutely stupid to me and I’m resistant. Eventually you evolve or die, but I’ll admit even I am a skeptic in my work and I’m pretty progressive in every other sense.

 

[Rempe73]

Maybe I’m naive, but I can’t believe they’re being fed talking points.

It’s just a massively different game in many aspects from when these ex-players played. Naturally they push back against some of the newer school beliefs. Some right, some wrong.

This is something you see in every industry, everywhere. I see it daily. I’m 35 and I can’t wrap my head around some of the new school thinking in corporations and tech spheres. Some of it seems absolutely stupid to me and I’m resistant. Eventually you evolve or die, but I’ll admit even I am a skeptic in my work and I’m pretty progressive in every other sense.

The thing is, Maloney did criticize old school beliefs once in a while.

 

[UnSandvich]

Perhaps I just missed them, but I didn't see any glaring mishaps from ADA tonight

 

[Rempe73]

Perhaps I just missed them, but I didn't see any glaring mishaps from ADA tonight

There were none that I can remember. Just like last game. He once again played very well defensively.

 

[aufheben]

I know it's coming, but I'm going to be very disappointed when DeAngelo and Skjei are separated.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I know it sounds dumb to be random internet person sitting here saying "yeah well sometimes coaches are wrong" but it IS something that we see again and again in this league and in pro sports in general. Coaches, GMs, etc, are often wrong about players that may have a game that's a little different than the mindset that the coaches have.
I think DeAngelo is not given any slack for how he plays...he makes a mistake it's a BIG DEAL. If Marc Staal, Brendan Smith, Brady Skjei, Neil Pionk, Adam McQuaid ll make a mistake, it's OK look how much effort they give. If Pavel Buchnevich glides on the ice here and there he's a lazy POS who isn't engaged without the puck and should be moved down the lineup or scratched even if he likely could put up 50+ points given top six minutes, but Jimmy Vesey man have you seen how that guy hustles even if he is mediocre as all hell at scoring goals and his defense isn't anything to write home about?
If we're going to be a grind it out dump the puck be afraid to make a single mistake "no talent" style of team then let's hurry up and trade DeAngelo, Buchnevich, Chytil, Kravtsov, etc. Demanding that your most talented rookie players be near perfect and make no mistakes is a good way to Sanguinetti them all
IDGAF if DeAngelo makes some defensive zone mistakes if he spends more time attacking, generating scoring chances, putting up points, etc. I'd rather a couple of mistakes than watch the rest of the D chase their tails in their own end, fail to break the puck out, and just end up spending all their time defending even if they "do it well".
I dunno, I'm getting grumpy about this. He's never going to be perfect in his own zone, but he's shown he is an effective puck mover who generates chances and the points have also started coming for him this season. If this team wants to develop an offensive defenseman, well here he is.

To some degree, the criticism doesn't reach players who are established NHL players (Staal, McQuaid, Skjei, Smith etc). The other examples you mention are pointing out the real issue. Why is Buchnevich scratched several times for having a mediocre game, but Vesey can stay in the line-up no matter what? It happened under AV, and now it happens under Quinn. Here's a thought: Maybe the NHL should look at diversity behind the bench in addition to on the ice. How is it possible that 30% of the players in the league are European, but none of the coaches are? The KHL has 2 Canadian coaches, a Czech coach in Magnitogorsk, a Latvian coachin Nizhny Novgorod, Belorussian coaches in Novosibirsk and Vladivostok (Not counting non-Russian coaches who coach a team from their country like Jokerit, Slovan and Riga). How come the NHL is so stuck in the 50s when it comes to coaching? Maybe that is the underlying issue. I am not saying it's all going to be resolved when we see some Swedish, Czech, Russian and Finnish coaches in the NHL but it's a start.

We replaced one coach who annoyed people with his decisions by another coach who makes the same decisions. The mantra seems to be "As long as you try hard enough, you're safe" which is an awful way of building a winning team. Hockey has evolved over the years. The influx of European players over the last couple decades is proof of that. Yet coaching has stayed the same. That is my real issue here. I am not saying European coaches are better than NA coaches. It's just different styles which, in my opinion, would work well with different styles on the ice.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

To some degree, the criticism doesn't reach players who are established NHL players (Staal, McQuaid, Skjei, Smith etc). The other examples you mention are pointing out the real issue. Why is Buchnevich scratched several times for having a mediocre game, but Vesey can stay in the line-up no matter what? It happened under AV, and now it happens under Quinn. Here's a thought: Maybe the NHL should look at diversity behind the bench in addition to on the ice. How is it possible that 30% of the players in the league are European, but none of the coaches are? The KHL has 2 Canadian coaches, a Czech coach in Magnitogorsk, a Latvian coachin Nizhny Novgorod, Belorussian coaches in Novosibirsk and Vladivostok (Not counting non-Russian coaches who coach a team from their country like Jokerit, Slovan and Riga). How come the NHL is so stuck in the 50s when it comes to coaching? Maybe that is the underlying issue. I am not saying it's all going to be resolved when we see some Swedish, Czech, Russian and Finnish coaches in the NHL but it's a start.

We replaced one coach who annoyed people with his decisions by another coach who makes the same decisions. The mantra seems to be "As long as you try hard enough, you're safe" which is an awful way of building a winning team. Hockey has evolved over the years. The influx of European players over the last couple decades is proof of that. Yet coaching has stayed the same. That is my real issue here. I am not saying European coaches are better than NA coaches. It's just different styles which, in my opinion, would work well with different styles on the ice.

So your solution is to get a European coach in here that will apparently tolerate Buchnevich’s loafing and downright refusal to ever stop on a puck and engage? Good luck

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

So your solution is to get a European coach in here that will apparently tolerate Buchnevich’s loafing and downright refusal to ever stop on a puck and engage? Good luck

Wow. Great effort missing the point there. This isn't about Buchnevich.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

We've been missing a player like DeAngelo for a long time. An agitator that actually has skill to go along with it. Plus he's played very well the since finally being put back in the lineup.