Confirmed with Link: Toffoli to CGY for Emil Heineman, Tyler Pitlick + Picks (Part 2)

[yianik]

It’s the bird in the hand thing. However, it also signaled how difficult this trade deadline market might be. There is limited cap space, how many teams will be willing to cough up a first rounder without retention?

Maybe not on a Chiarot with an expiring contract or on a Lehkonen on an affordable deal, but likely any other outgoing piece will require more compromise and more creativity.

And maybe wait until a better time to trade some guys.

 

[Naslund]

And maybe wait until a better time to trade some guys.

No better time. SC final still fresh. The team will keep getting worse for a while. Memories will fade...

 

[Redux91]

Maybe. Toffoli is also 2 months away from turning 30, and not realistically a player we could or should extend in 2 years when his contract is up as he's not a particularly fast skater now and it's only going to diminish with age. He's likely to be better but it's not out the question that Heineman or the combination of Heineman and the prospect we take with the 1st are more valuable in 3-4 years.

I also don't think the fact that the previous regime failed drafting in the 1st round is a reason to just be a complete doomer about the very concept of trading veterans for futures. The last time we traded a vet for a 1st + a prospect it was Rivet for Gorges and Pacioretty, I realize that's cherry-picking a good outcome but it's not like this never ever works out for anyone. Perhaps they could have traded him for younger roster players or more developed prospects instead, but it's also possible that there wasn't really a deal out there for that kind of player and we'll see that sort of trade for Dvorak/Chiarot/Petry/Gallagher etc. Trading the player also opens up cap to sign players in the future. It's not like that roster spot is just going to be a blank void now until the 1st round pick does or doesn't develop.

It doesn't really matter whether we trade them or not, players like Petry, Edmundson, Chiarot, Gallagher etc. are not going to be impact players for the next Canadiens' core. There might be room to keep one around as a veteran leader but the choice is basically either to trade them now for future assets, or hold them and "lose" them to aging and attrition. RE: signing players, it really doesn't take very long to turn these things around. Toronto went completely scorched earth with 68 and 69 point seasons back to back. Their tank ended in April 2016, and 18 months later they were able to sign John Tavares in free agency with taxes, weather, and media every bit as unattractive as they are in Montreal.

I'm not someone that really supports a turbo tank and I don't want the team to deliberately go years and years without trying to improve, but I don't think there's really a way forward that doesn't' involve anyone older than Jake Evans being off this team in the next 3 years. I also think we're overrating Toffoli a little bit on this board, he's a good player but this is a pretty generic top 6 forward, not a can't miss 1st line stud.

Great post btw

 

[ottawa]

For the moment it's not a rebuilt, it's a demolition. Not sure if and when there will be a rebuilt.

After the demolition

 

[Habs]

If Bergevin was given almost 10 seasons, how about we give the new guys more than a few weeks?
This is an entirely different time, and the new guys seemingly have a plan. I think the Bergevin Rinse and Repeat Era may have you thinking the way you are...
Rebuilds gotta start somewhere....it's so early in the process.
I loved TT too, but as soon as Hughes said he wanted a ast team, guys like Toffolli were on borrowed time....we have several of those types, it's just that Toffolli actually had some value to Calgary.

I am looking for a few more guys to get traded fairly soon.....
As others have said, trust the process. The new guys deserve some time............they are actually using their brains, unlike the clown who just left town...

Ok, but if I'm the new GM I don't want to have a bunch of fans watching a pile of non-scoring , never exciting scrubs for 5 years. He is in the entertainment business still, fans won't enjoy many home games unless he tells them what his plan is? Ok so you dump a great contract and teammate in TT for ... a gamble. Unload some salary, just to chase it down again next season. Now Suzuki and CC are underperforming , and then you lower their trade value and confidence as well.

I guess the last few player agents I have seen as GM's have also been awful in the NHL so .. I'm very leery

How long do you think his plan moves forward, till the 5th homegame of getting boo'd for a god awful, cap friendly hockey team?

 

[Adam Michaels]

Forgot that Muller is with the Flames' coaching staff now. So another reunion for Toffoli:

 

[KevSkillz4]

Delete

 

[calder candidate]

No, I don't believe McGuire did. Doesn't feel right to tarnish Toffoli based on nothing but your feeling.

1) Yes, Mcguire did...
2) I'm not tarnishing anything

Pretty sure I not the only one who think that the trade and timming were weird... Him having requested a trade checks all the boxes and make sense. He is also quoted as being 50/50 on wanting to stick around for a rebuild, 50% is literally the most % he could answer without saying you wanted out...

It isn't because toffoli and is wife are more media savy and classier than others that he didn't request a trade... He sign here because he saw a team that seemed progressing with two young center in Suzuki and KK performing in the playoff, thinking the team was on the way up, than in the offseason Weber retire, Price and Edmondson on LTIR, KK, Danault, Perry and Tatar leave via free agency, fair to say that it turn around pretty quickly the other way... So I could understand that this wasn't what he signup for and so I could see why he would resquest a trade but neither players or management really have anything to gain from it being advertise.

Getting a 1st and a B prospect isn't a deal that was too good to refuse... Adding Toffoli for 3 playoff run or 2 playoff and flipping him as a rental is a win for Calgary, time will tell if the scouting staff and Heinemen can also to make it a win for us...

 

[The Great Weal]

Toffoli just scored, he’s gonna do well there

 

[CHfan1]

Decent debut for Toffoli:

 

[LaP]

I still hate this trade, TT was exactly what we needed to rebuild with. Scores, wanted to be here, cap friendly ,a leader. They will be looking to replace him now for years to come. I hate it. If this was a wicked draft, ok, fine but meh..

For years to come i doubt. Toffoli will be 30 next season and he's not the type of guys who age well when they are getting close to 35. I'd say he has maybe 3-4 years at most. He plays a very similar game to Ryder and Ryder was done at 32.

 

[Scriptor]

For years to come i doubt. Toffoli will be 30 next season and he's not the type of guys who age well when they are getting close to 35. I'd say he has maybe 3-4 years at most. He plays a very similar game to Ryder and Ryder was done at 32. Trading him make lot of sense. In fact everyuone close to 30 should be traded before next season.é

Ryder was a defensive sieve and had little real hockey sense. Toffoli is not Ryder, but he's already not that fast on skates, so, yes, he will slow down to a halt by mid 30s.

 

[1909]

Decent debut for Toffoli:

Yeah... Too slow they were saying.... I am mad.

 

[LaP]

Ryder was a defensive sieve and had little real hockey sense. Toffoli is not Ryder, but he's already not that fast on skates, so, yes, he will slow down to a halt by mid 30s.

I meant similar game offensively. They are both not fast. Both have a good shot and a good hands. I'd agree with you that Toffoli has a higher IQ but i doubt that will be enough to carry him past 34. We'll be able to find other vets i don't get why people are panicking. This is the same old same old. We suck yet we can't trade anyone of value because whatever. People don't get that this is the kind of attitude that gave us 30 years without a cup? We should 100% trade anyone of value for whatever the teams are offering. If we look at the last 5 years what we got for Toffoli is okay. It's not great not terrible. I'd agree with keeping Toffoli if he was 27 but at his age i don't see the point.

 

[Whitesnake]

Yeah... Too slow they were saying.... I am mad.

Toffoli wasn't traded because he was bad. He was traded 'cause we are not a good team and he wouldn't have changed a thing for this team.

Now...the value of Toffoli the player AND its contract should have given us more than a late 1st rounder and a possible 3rd liner if things go well.

 

[Naslund]

Toffoli wasn't traded because he was bad. He was traded 'cause we are not a good team and he wouldn't have changed a thing for this team.

Now...the value of Toffoli the player AND its contract should have given us more than a late 1st rounder and a possible 3rd liner if things go well.

We get what the market dictates, not more, not less.

 

[calder candidate]

True but look at how many players have stepped forward to say that they wanted to be a part of the team: Toffoli and the Powerhorse. There may be one or two others I may have missed but most are not saying anything. Toffoli could have also chosen not to speak to that, so it means something.

That is something but I not sure it means anything... There are thing that you can't say and sometime dodging the question is a bigger issues than just bending the truth a little bit... Just like all GM or Coach receiving the full approval and confidence from their boss the day before getting fired.

It seem odd to me, that management decided to trade someone that wanted to be here, when they were no other motive to do so...

« J’étais à 50-50. Je ne rajeunis pas. Je joue au hockey pour gagner des matchs, mais j’aimais le groupe de joueurs. »
Toffoli is also quoted as being 50/50 on being part of the rebuild, saying he isn't getting any younger and want he play hockey to win games, those seem like two strong arguement for wanting to leave vs. is arguement to stay, him liking this group, especial when you consider that like 1/3 of the player he played with last year left or aren't playing....

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

At least I can bandwagon on the Flames come playoffs.

 

[TomKosto]

Yeah... Too slow they were saying.... I am mad.

You need to have a global vision to run a hockey club. We didn't trade him because he was too slow or bad... We traded him because we are rebuilding this club via the draft. It was really nice to have him and it sucked to be honest to see him scored in an other team jersey, but it was a good buisness move.

 

[RationalExpectations]

We get what the market dictates, not more, not less.

I think for some reason Gorton and Hughes rushed the trade. It still does not make a lot of sense to me. The return is in the range which was to be expected but on the lower end of it, Toffoli still has 2 years and half under the only great contract Bergevin let behind him… not sure what the rush was. CGY is scary there is a good chance this pick ends up 28-32 …

 

[RationalExpectations]

You need to have a global vision to run a hockey club. We didn't trade him because he was too slow or bad... We traded him because we are rebuilding this club via the draft. It was really nice to have him and it sucked to be honest to see him scored in an other team jersey, but it was a good buisness move.

Depends on what the magic beans come to be.

 

[TomKosto]

Depends on what the magic beans come to be.

Sure but it shows us that Hughes will likely tank next year too, considering the draft, it's a good thing. We as fans tend to overrated our players. A lot of Calgary fans didn't want to spend a first on a guy like Toffoli. The value is between both opinions, yea maybe we could have get more next year, but the value could decrease too with a injury or something else.

 

[McPhees Moustache]

At least I can bandwagon on the Flames come playoffs.

Not allowed! Have to cheer for a higher draft pick!

 

[RationalExpectations]

Sure but it shows us that Hughes will likely tank next year too, considering the draft, it's a good thing.

Not really, at the moment given how I see CGY doing this year and how I see Heineman (from far that s true ), he has managed to make the team worse without really improving the prospect pool.

 

[TomKosto]

Not really, at the moment given how I see CGY doing this year and how I see Heineman (from far that s true ), he has managed to make the team worse without really improving the prospect pool.

Can you wait till the draft maybe to say he didn't improve our prospects pool lol come on. It's a matter of months before we can say the prospect pool is better, silly argument.