Confirmed with Link: Toffoli to CGY for Emil Heineman, Tyler Pitlick + Picks (Part 2)

[RationalExpectations]

Can you wait till the draft maybe to say he didn't improve our prospects pool lol come on. It's a matter of months before we can say the prospect pool is better, silly argument.

This is why I said at the moment. Another poster made a post I fully agree with : when picking 20-30 OA looking back you have a 1 out of 10 shot at a good NHLer (top 6F, top4D).

 

[calder candidate]

For years to come i doubt. Toffoli will be 30 next season and he's not the type of guys who age well when they are getting close to 35. I'd say he has maybe 3-4 years at most. He plays a very similar game to Ryder and Ryder was done at 32.

If he only has 3-4 year left and was only under contract for 2 more seasons, it doesn't seem like it would be a issue especial in our situation...

 

[TomKosto]

This is why I said at the moment. Another poster made a post I fully agree with : when picking 20-30 OA looking back you have a 1 out of 10 shot at a good NHLer (top 6F, top4D).

There's so many holes in this team, having Toffoli for the next few years won't change a thing in us being a playoff team. "For the moment" means nothing, we will improve our prospect pool in a few months, it's not like there's a competition for the best prospect pool next week. People crave on Mailloux, Guhle, Caufield, they are all first rounders. The more you have, the better.

 

[Habs]

For years to come i doubt. Toffoli will be 30 next season and he's not the type of guys who age well when they are getting close to 35. I'd say he has maybe 3-4 years at most. He plays a very similar game to Ryder and Ryder was done at 32.

You just don't get rid of goal scorers , they are too hard to replace. If you do, you better make sure you get a heck of a replacement

 

[Habs]

If Bergevin was given almost 10 seasons, how about we give the new guys more than a few weeks?
This is an entirely different time, and the new guys seemingly have a plan. I think the Bergevin Rinse and Repeat Era may have you thinking the way you are...
Rebuilds gotta start somewhere....it's so early in the process.
I loved TT too, but as soon as Hughes said he wanted a ast team, guys like Toffolli were on borrowed time....we have several of those types, it's just that Toffolli actually had some value to Calgary.

I am looking for a few more guys to get traded fairly soon.....
As others have said, trust the process. The new guys deserve some time............they are actually using their brains, unlike the clown who just left town...

I'll try, I just can't understand trading away 25-35 goals for .. nothing but a 2nd rounder who probably won't do anything (been moved 2x already) and a high first round pick we have to wait 4 years for. Ok so if he can make a splash in the FA market and find a young impact forward, I'll apologize in the off season.

 

[RationalExpectations]

There's so many holes in this team, having Toffoli for the next few years won't change a thing in us being a playoff team. "For the moment" means nothing, we will improve our prospect pool in a few months, it's not like there's a competition for the best prospect pool next week. People crave on Mailloux, Guhle, Caufield, they are all first rounders. The more you have, the better.

I agree : the more first rounder the better but they are not guaranteed to succeed. I like Guhle, Mailloux too small of a sample to really judge, Caufield let's see ... How many prospects have MTL fans overhyped for them only to crash ? Galchenyuk, McCarron, Scherback, Juulsen, Poehling (could become a 3C), KK, Sergachev (both NHLers but traded and both top 10 picks). More recently, Norlinder, Brook who both likely won't be much use.

I am just trying to be realistic, there is a huge gap between what we have and what we think we have and I believe that getting a potential 3rd liner and a 1/10 chance at a top 6 at the draft does not seem like a high price for a cost controlled proven top 6 forward. As I said in antoher post, I believe there may have been a reason for Hughes to rush the deal and that we don't know. We'll see.

 

[TomKosto]

I agree : the more first rounder the better but they are not guaranteed to succeed. I like Guhle, Mailloux too small of a sample to really judge, Caufield let's see ... How many prospects have MTL fans overhyped for them only to crash ? Galchenyuk, McCarron, Scherback, Juulsen, Poehling (could become a 3C), KK, Sergachev (both NHLers but traded and both top 10 picks). More recently, Norlinder, Brook who both likely won't be much use.

I am just trying to be realistic, there is a huge gap between what we have and what we think we have and I believe that getting a potential 3rd liner and a 1/10 chance at a top 6 at the draft does not seem like a high price for a cost controlled proven top 6 forward. As I said in antoher post, I believe there may have been a reason for Hughes to rush the deal and that we don't know. We'll see.

Timmins and Bergy are not here anymore, have faith...

As I said, a cost controlled proven top 6 foward won't make a difference for a team as bad as the Habs...too many holes. The only argument I see, is that we could have kept him and trade him for more next year or the other. But it still can bite you in the ass if he gets a big injury or if he regressed.

 

[NMacrules]

Myself and a few others posted Toffoli to Calgary for a 1st and Calgary laughed us right out of the building. "no way Toffoli is worth a 1st" Hughes won this trade AINEC!

 

[Archijerej]

I think for some reason Gorton and Hughes rushed the trade. It still does not make a lot of sense to me. The return is in the range which was to be expected but on the lower end of it, Toffoli still has 2 years and half under the only great contract Bergevin let behind him… not sure what the rush was. CGY is scary there is a good chance this pick ends up 28-32 …

@MarkovsKnee just gave a breakdown of our cap situation in case Price is done and has to be placed on LTIR.

If that is indeed the case, it might just be that our rebuild in terms of who to keep and who to move will be mostly dependent on cap considerations and which contracts are the easiest to move. Perhaps this is why we traded Toffoli for the price of a rental.

If true, this absolutely sucks, because when you rebuild, there are far more important criteria that should determine who stays and who goes.

Seems like Bergevin has really f***ed up his last off-season.

 

[Archijerej]

Timmins and Bergy are not here anymore, have faith...

As I said, a cost controlled proven top 6 foward won't make a difference for a team as bad as the Habs...too many holes. The only argument I see, is that we could have kept him and trade him for more next year or the other. But it still can bite you in the ass if he gets a big injury or if he regressed.

Define "making a difference".

You realise our 22-year-old center needs a winger if he is to have any enjoyment in playing for us and if he is to develop properly? And not only that. He has to have a winger capable of producing on the first line, where they are the focus for the opposition. Up to date, the only winger that has not looked like a complete dog shit in this role was Tyler Toffoli. So yeah, that's making a difference in my book.

Smart rebuilding teams never lose sight of such factors as leadership, chemistry, proper development and actual lineups your are going to put on the ice. Mickey Mouse organisations masturbate to picks and prospects, while their young players on the roster stagnate and become resentful, turning a rebuilding process into a decade long futility.

 

[RationalExpectations]

Define "making a difference".

You realise our 22-year-old center needs a winger if he is to have any enjoyment in playing for us and if he is to develop properly. And not only that. He has to have a winger capable of producing on the first line, where they are the focus for the opposition. Up to date, the only winger that has not looked like a complete dog shit in this role was Tyler Toffoli. So yeah, that's making a difference in my book.

Smart rebuilding teams never lose sight of such factors as leadership, chemistry, proper development and actual lineups your are going to ice. Mickey Mouse organisations masturbate to picks and prospects, while their young players on the roster stagnate and become resentful, turning a rebuilding process into a decade long futility.

Speaking about BUF tanking hard to get McDavid ?

 

[RationalExpectations]

@MarkovsKnee just gave a breakdown of our cap situation in case Price is done and has to be placed on LTIR.

If that is indeed the case, it might just be that our rebuild in terms of who to keep and who to move will be mostly dependent on cap considerations and which contracts are the easiest to move. Perhaps this is why we traded Toffoli for the price of a rental.

If true, this absolutely sucks, because when you rebuild, there are far more important criteria that should determine who stays and who goes.

Seems like Bergevin has really f***ed up his last off-season.

If he is on permanent LTIR you don t care as a rebuilder, so I don t see the issue with Toffoli s contract. I don t care if you trade Petry for future considerations at this point but damn Toffoli was the only good contract from the last era and the first out of the door, that stinks.

 

[Archijerej]

Speaking about BUF tanking hard to get McDavid ?

A one year surgical tank for a truly game breaking talent is fine, as long as you have a good enough supporting cast to start climbing up the standings immediately after.

 

[Archijerej]

If he is on permanent LTIR you don t care as a rebuilder, so I don t see the issue with Toffoli s contract. I don t care if you trade Petry for future considerations at this point but damn Toffoli was the only good contract from the last era and the first out of the door, that stinks.

It's more complicated than that. If you use LTIR for Price, you can't use it for Weber, so that's a near $8M of dead cap. You also can't use LTIR in the off-season and can't exceed the cap then by more than 10%.

Thanks to the legendary signings like Mike Hoffman we are in quite a bind unless we clear some salary.

I agree about Toffoli. Unless they had no choice because of the cap, or unless Heineman is really good, I wouldn't have moved him in a trade where the cornerstone is a late 1st. That's a rental price.

 

[RationalExpectations]

It's more complicated than that. If you use LTIR for Price, you can't use it for Weber, so that's a near $8M of dead cap. You also can't use LTIR in the off-season and can't exceed the cap then by more than 10%.

Thanks to the legendary signings like Mike Hoffman we are in quite a bind unless we clear some salary.

I agree about Toffoli. Unless they had no choice because of the cap, or unless Heineman is really good, I wouldn't have moved him in a trade where the cornerstone is a late 1st. That's a rental price.

Oh I completely forgot about the 10% rule in the offseason. If that s the driver for a fire sale, this is bad… it means this franchise is f***ed until Price s contract is over.

 

[Archijerej]

Oh I completely forgot about the 10% rule in the offseason. If that s the driver for a fire sale, this is bad… it means this franchise is f***ed until Price s contract is over.

I would go as far as to say we're f***ed, but it will certainly affect the moves we make and make the rebuild more difficult. Toffoli is probably the first example. The return we get for Petry is likely going to be even more disappointing.

I think there's a good chance Weber will retire. They seem to be working on that right now.

 

[RationalExpectations]

I would go as far as to say we're f***ed, but it will certainly affect the moves we make and make the rebuild more difficult. Toffoli is probably the first example. The return we get for Petry is likely going to be even more disappointing.

I think there's a good chance Weber will retire. They seem to be working on that right now.

I am expecting the Schmidt return for Petry, I think Weber definitely will retire but after next season, will be hard for him to retire after this season while owed 3m the next year. What are their obligations as players when they don t retire ? They can just sit in front of TV waiting for retirement to come ?

 

[Belial]

It's more complicated than that. If you use LTIR for Price, you can't use it for Weber, so that's a near $8M of dead cap. You also can't use LTIR in the off-season and can't exceed the cap then by more than 10%.

Thanks to the legendary signings like Mike Hoffman we are in quite a bind unless we clear some salary.

I agree about Toffoli. Unless they had no choice because of the cap, or unless Heineman is really good, I wouldn't have moved him in a trade where the cornerstone is a late 1st. That's a rental price.

There's no chance in hell they moved Toffoli because of the salary cap.

It was clearly a rebuilding trade.

 

[Runner77]

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Myself and a few others posted Toffoli to Calgary for a 1st and Calgary laughed us right out of the building. "no way Toffoli is worth a 1st" Hughes won this trade AINEC!

You will find that no Habs player is worth anything on the main boards

they’d tell you that you’d be lucky to get a 3rd for Guy Lafleur

 

[HabsAddict]

Oh I completely forgot about the 10% rule in the offseason. If that s the driver for a fire sale, this is bad… it means this franchise is f***ed until Price s contract is over.

Now you see why I want Price GONE. OUT. Enough with dark places and other PR bs to shut down criticism.

Play or retire.

 

[Natey]

I'll try, I just can't understand trading away 25-35 goals for .. nothing but a 2nd rounder who probably won't do anything (been moved 2x already) and a high first round pick we have to wait 4 years for. Ok so if he can make a splash in the FA market and find a young impact forward, I'll apologize in the off season.

never seen seen
Because we f***ing suck and won't be competitive during Toffoli's contract.

Funny how you're such an expert on a kid you've probably never seen play.

 

[Hins77]

I agree : the more first rounder the better but they are not guaranteed to succeed. I like Guhle, Mailloux too small of a sample to really judge, Caufield let's see ... How many prospects have MTL fans overhyped for them only to crash ? Galchenyuk, McCarron, Scherback, Juulsen, Poehling (could become a 3C), KK, Sergachev (both NHLers but traded and both top 10 picks). More recently, Norlinder, Brook who both likely won't be much use.

I am just trying to be realistic, there is a huge gap between what we have and what we think we have and I believe that getting a potential 3rd liner and a 1/10 chance at a top 6 at the draft does not seem like a high price for a cost controlled proven top 6 forward. As I said in antoher post, I believe there may have been a reason for Hughes to rush the deal and that we don't know. We'll see.

. I agreee, but using Montreal as exemple isnt really fair. I made a little work last time and they were the worst team with Arizona to draft Nhl player since 10 years. Good team were able to add few nhl player between 12-15 players on 10 years drafts. Montreal they made 6 regular players. Thats clearly not enough. Thats the half. You can’t really realize how our scouting staff suck last 10 years, when you compare with others nhl team.

 

[HabsAddict]

Hopefully something great like...Price or Weber or both are gone.

I can dream....

 

[RationalExpectations]

. I agreee, but using Montreal as exemple isnt really fair. I made a little work last time and they were the worst team with Arizona to draft Nhl player since 10 years. Good team were able to add few nhl player between 12-15 players on 10 years drafts. Montreal they made 6 regular players. Thats clearly not enough. Thats the half. You can’t really realize how our scouting staff suck last 10 years, when you compare with others nhl team.

I agree but if you look at the odds of a 20-30 OA to turn into a top6f top4d ... Not more than 10% for all teams not only MTL