Confirmed with Link: Toffoli to CGY for Emil Heineman, Tyler Pitlick + Picks (Part 2)

[BLONG7]

Ok, but if I'm the new GM I don't want to have a bunch of fans watching a pile of non-scoring , never exciting scrubs for 5 years. He is in the entertainment business still, fans won't enjoy many home games unless he tells them what his plan is? Ok so you dump a great contract and teammate in TT for ... a gamble. Unload some salary, just to chase it down again next season. Now Suzuki and CC are underperforming , and then you lower their trade value and confidence as well.

I guess the last few player agents I have seen as GM's have also been awful in the NHL so .. I'm very leery

How long do you think his plan moves forward, till the 5th homegame of getting boo'd for a god awful, cap friendly hockey team?

Hey, you make some great points...................but we have just spent the last 5-6 sesons, doing just that, not scoring goals........and yet Bergevin was given year over year to improve the scoring and he didn't.
I look at this as having two guys now, with actual brains, one in Gorton who has seen how this is done, with both the Bruins and the Rangers......
When Bergevin took over 10 years ago, almost no one had any issues his first 3 years, because of the good haul he inherited. It's now the opposite, these guys have their work cut out for them......it's not going to be easy, tht's for sure.

 

[dinodebino]

No rush in the PC, eh! Lolol

 

[Hins77]

I agree but if you look at the odds of a 20-30 OA to turn into a top6f top4d ... Not more than 10% for all teams not only MTL

I have made a research too. From draft 2015 to 2018. 20th postion to 31.
1 player were top line forward/top 2 dman (less 10%)
3 players are middle 6/top 4 dman. (30%)
2 players are fringe 4liner/ahler
5 players on 11 bust.
Around 30-40% to get an nhl player, then 60% bust or 4thliner/ahler

 

[LaP]

You just don't get rid of goal scorers , they are too hard to replace. If you do, you better make sure you get a heck of a replacement

This goal scorer wont help us when we will be ready to win. He is for all intend and purpose not a goal scorer for us cause the goal he'll score will just help us potentially draft higher. People forget that the value in trading vets is insuring a high pick again next year. The players available in the top 5 next year are well worth Toffoli and Chiarot. KH got what we could for Toffoli and that's fine at least there's a vision. Now he MUST improve drafting cause that's where we will get the real players.

If he only has 3-4 year left and was only under contract for 2 more seasons, it doesn't seem like it would be a issue especial in our situation...

That's not why he was traded though. He was not traded because he is playeing badly or because we must trade him or because the value was too good to not trade him. I can't believe it's not clear for some people why Toffoli was traded. I'll post a link to the reasons why he was traded :

Connor Bedard Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com
Matvei Michkov Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

If KH prove me wrong this summer by doing some stupid trades giving young players for over the hill vets to win now then i'll change my opinion of this trade but until he proves me his vision is not to rebuild thru draft then he is at least having a vision which is more that i can say about the guys who preceded him.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Hey, you make some great points...................but we have just spent the last 5-6 sesons, doing just that, not scoring goals........and yet Bergevin was given year over year to improve the scoring and he didn't.
I look at this as having two guys now, with actual brains, one in Gorton who has seen how this is done, with both the Bruins and the Rangers......
When Bergevin took over 10 years ago, almost no one had any issues his first 3 years, because of the good haul he inherited. It's now the opposite, these guys have their work cut out for them......it's not going to be easy, tht's for sure.

You go too far one way or another. In Bergevin's years, Habs missed PO by little. Sure Habs were boring and didn't score enough goals but at least there was a defensive system that didn't get the Habs busted with 5 goals and more. There was Price but there was Markov, Weber (or Subban), Emelin, Danault, etc. That wasn't a total disaster. If we had another center, let's say a mature Suzuki or someone like Hertel, we would be in a play-off spot. Maybe if we had Anderson or Toffoli back in 2015 it would be enough.

Now you elevate Gorton and Hughes to a level of almost god of hockey. Maybe you are right but I say you are too excited and over the top optimistic. Look at the mess they are now, Toffoli, one of our only valuable winger is traded for question marks, another 3dr or 4th liner Pitlick, a prospect Heineman who never skated in the NA rinks and a 1rst round in a year where there is no player we can be sure of anything. Even Wright will not be a generation talent like McDavid, Crosby, Ovechkin or Matthews. Same for Bedard with his 5'9" who plays in a small league, a much lesser league than the man's league NHL.
Toffoli is gone, the next one will be Chiarot and the Habs will be left with the ones that deserve to be traded because they are bad but they have no value : Drouin, Dvorak, Byron, Gallagher and Armia. We will be lucky if there is a taker on Petry, the way he plays. Maybe Hoffman or Gallagher will have a taker like Petry the last day of TDL but think about it, Anderson and Caufield will be the only wingers who can score and Suzuki the only good center. That's only 3 good players, that means the other good forwards will be Drouin, Lehkonen, Pitlick, Byron and Armia. Is that is sexy enough for you if you dream about an offensive team? No Price, no Weber, no Chiarot, do you think a ufa will be crazy enough to sign here with our shitty temperature, high taxes, our toxic social medias and the mediodre team we have?
You can praise Gorton and Hughes all the way you want, I say it's not a soft hill they have to climb, it's an Everest. Good luck for them ! Don't be surprised if a defensive minded team happen again just to make sure this team is not humiliate game after game. Mark this one !

 

[Montreal Impact FC]

I guess he did request a trade which make a lot more sense now, but that still isn’t great return we paid a 1st (best of our 2 picks) + a 2nd for Dvorak who is half the player Toffoli is…

True but also MB was in desperate mode
after Kotka was stolen by Carolina.

 

[Captain97]

Oh I completely forgot about the 10% rule in the offseason. If that s the driver for a fire sale, this is bad… it means this franchise is f***ed until Price s contract is over.

Wasn't this disproven/had a way around it found a few years ago when the leafs did it?

Also pretty sure Tampa was over by more than 10% last offseason

 

[RationalExpectations]

I have made a research too. From draft 2015 to 2018. 20th postion to 31.
1 player were top line forward/top 2 dman (less 10%)
3 players are middle 6/top 4 dman. (30%)
2 players are fringe 4liner/ahler
5 players on 11 bust.
Around 30-40% to get an nhl player, then 60% bust or 4thliner/ahler

Wait what ? 1 top line player per year in that range ? which ones ????
Looking into details maybe you can indeed expect up to 3 top 6 / top 4 out of 12 picks (25%) but some years (like 2016, 2017) you can have 0 or 1.

 

[LaP]

I have made a research too. From draft 2015 to 2018. 20th postion to 31.
1 player were top line forward/top 2 dman (less 10%)
3 players are middle 6/top 4 dman. (30%)
2 players are fringe 4liner/ahler
5 players on 11 bust.
Around 30-40% to get an nhl player, then 60% bust or 4thliner/ahler

1. Small sample size.
2. 2018 guys are just 22-23 still too soon to "bust" them.

Let's just travel back a bit more to be sure the guys have it or not. Let's take 2005 to 2012. Position 20th to end of first round (88 players).

List of players who can play an important role on a winning team :
Tuuka Rask
TJ Oshie
Niskanen
Giroux
Patch
Carlsson
Kuznetsov
(i did not count questionable guys like David Perron, Varlamov or Eberle but you could make a case for some of them if you count them it's about 13%-16% instead of 8%)

That's about 8%. That's not too bad. Your chances to get one of those players in their prime or close to it for guys like Petry (current), Gallagher (current) and Toffoli is 0%. Now if you travel back two years ago yeah we could have landed such prospect at 20 years old for a Petry. But that ship has sailed.

 

[TomKosto]

Speaking about BUF tanking hard to get McDavid ?

So easy to point out Buffalo... Can we talk about Chi, LA, Wsh, Pitts, Tampa who were all bottom teams for a long time? You need TALENT to win the cup and the easiest way to get it, is by drafting them....

 

[TomKosto]

Define "making a difference".

You realise our 22-year-old center needs a winger if he is to have any enjoyment in playing for us and if he is to develop properly? And not only that. He has to have a winger capable of producing on the first line, where they are the focus for the opposition. Up to date, the only winger that has not looked like a complete dog shit in this role was Tyler Toffoli. So yeah, that's making a difference in my book.

Smart rebuilding teams never lose sight of such factors as leadership, chemistry, proper development and actual lineups your are going to put on the ice. Mickey Mouse organisations masturbate to picks and prospects, while their young players on the roster stagnate and become resentful, turning a rebuilding process into a decade long futility.

Fans are so use to having a mediocre team, it's been 25 years... Our 22center can have a winger like Slafkovsky to play with for the next decade, bring true talent via the draft, that's simple. Anyway, that's what Hughes is going for, so get used to it.

 

[LaP]

I guess he did request a trade which make a lot more sense now, but that still isn’t great return we paid a 1st (best of our 2 picks) + a 2nd for Dvorak who is half the player Toffoli is…

We overpaid for Dvorak big time. A player like Dvorak is usually worth a end of 2nd round pick and something else either a suspect or another pick past the first round in a later draft. Eller returned two end of 2nd round pick and he's a better player than Dvorak and pretty much all our fans considered it a good trade. You can't evaluate any trade based on the Dvorak trade like you can't evaluate trades based on the Sergachev trade either.

 

[durojean]

IMO Gorton/Hughes evaluated similar ceilings w both Pelletier & Heineken bottle - and decided to pocket a 1st + the physically bigger prospect

There is also the contract thing. If he really need to keep 2 contract open, The fact that Emil doesn't take a space on the contract list might also influence that decision.

 

[1909]

There's so many holes in this team, having Toffoli for the next few years won't change a thing in us being a playoff team. "For the moment" means nothing, we will improve our prospect pool in a few months, it's not like there's a competition for the best prospect pool next week. People crave on Mailloux, Guhle, Caufield, they are all first rounders. The more you have, the better.

Having a good scorer, a good vet and a more competitive team is not enough ? Folks paying big bucks at the Bell want to see a better show next season, not a worse.

 

[1909]

There is also the contract thing. If he really need to keep 2 contract open, The fact that Emil doesn't take a space on the contract list might also influence that decision.

Could had been Pelletier or Coronato instead.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Could had been Pelletier or Coronato instead.

Pelletier takes up a contract spot. Coronato doesn't. And it's possible Coronato wasn't someone Flames wanted to give up.

 

[BLONG7]

You go too far one way or another. In Bergevin's years, Habs missed PO by little. Sure Habs were boring and didn't score enough goals but at least there was a defensive system that didn't get the Habs busted with 5 goals and more. There was Price but there was Markov, Weber (or Subban), Emelin, Danault, etc. That wasn't a total disaster. If we had another center, let's say a mature Suzuki or someone like Hertel, we would be in a play-off spot. Maybe if we had Anderson or Toffoli back in 2015 it would be enough.

Now you elevate Gorton and Hughes to a level of almost god of hockey. Maybe you are right but I say you are too excited and over the top optimistic. Look at the mess they are now, Toffoli, one of our only valuable winger is traded for question marks, another 3dr or 4th liner Pitlick, a prospect Heineman who never skated in the NA rinks and a 1rst round in a year where there is no player we can be sure of anything. Even Wright will not be a generation talent like McDavid, Crosby, Ovechkin or Matthews. Same for Bedard with his 5'9" who plays in a small league, a much lesser league than the man's league NHL.
Toffoli is gone, the next one will be Chiarot and the Habs will be left with the ones that deserve to be traded because they are bad but they have no value : Drouin, Dvorak, Byron, Gallagher and Armia. We will be lucky if there is a taker on Petry, the way he plays. Maybe Hoffman or Gallagher will have a taker like Petry the last day of TDL but think about it, Anderson and Caufield will be the only wingers who can score and Suzuki the only good center. That's only 3 good players, that means the other good forwards will be Drouin, Lehkonen, Pitlick, Byron and Armia. Is that is sexy enough for you if you dream about an offensive team? No Price, no Weber, no Chiarot, do you think a ufa will be crazy enough to sign here with our shitty temperature, high taxes, our toxic social medias and the mediodre team we have?
You can praise Gorton and Hughes all the way you want, I say it's not a soft hill they have to climb, it's an Everest. Good luck for them ! Don't be surprised if a defensive minded team happen again just to make sure this team is not humiliate game after game. Mark this one !

Elevate them to gods of hockey? Are you kidding............seriously. They have brains, unlike the clown GM we just had to endure. That, is obvious.
One guy is on the job for a couple of months, the other a couple of weeks...........If a donkey like owner wants to give them 10 years to get it done would that be ok? With results yes, without no....Bergevin had a soft hill, the new guys don't and yes there is a huge difference.

Do not put words in my mouth my friend....gods of hockey, your words, not mine. I have simply read the articles as you have that give both of our new guys a ton of credit for what they have accomplished, unlike MB who had accomplished zilch as an executive when he was selected.

 

[MilesNewton]

Need a mix of vets and youngsters- Too much is made of age, if a guy is a goal scorer who cares the age.
Look at Joe Pavelski having great years with Dallas at his age. Maybe focusing on some ability and not always youth would be beneficial. Caufield hasn't been the messiah this year he should honestly be sent down if it wasn't for all the hype attached to him.

 

[Toene]

Hughes said he wanted a fast team. He traded a slow player and improved the draft capital. Win/win. Sad for Caufield and co. who seemed to appreciate him a lot but they'll survive.

 

[Habs]

This goal scorer wont help us when we will be ready to win. He is for all intend and purpose not a goal scorer for us cause the goal he'll score will just help us potentially draft higher. People forget that the value in trading vets is insuring a high pick again next year. The players available in the top 5 next year are well worth Toffoli and Chiarot. KH got what we could for Toffoli and that's fine at least there's a vision. Now he MUST improve drafting cause that's where we will get the real players.



That's not why he was traded though. He was not traded because he is playeing badly or because we must trade him or because the value was too good to not trade him. I can't believe it's not clear for some people why Toffoli was traded. I'll post a link to the reasons why he was traded :

Connor Bedard Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com
Matvei Michkov Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

If KH prove me wrong this summer by doing some stupid trades giving young players for over the hill vets to win now then i'll change my opinion of this trade but until he proves me his vision is not to rebuild thru draft then he is at least having a vision which is more that i can say about the guys who preceded him.

That is risky trading a goal scorer for a 'chance' to land Bedard, which isn't a given.. plus.. its Bedard, not McDavid. You do not sell the farm for a guy like Bedard. I respect all you guys who support this trade but I just don't like it at all for the growth of this team, the players and the fans.

 

[TomKosto]

Having a good scorer, a good vet and a more competitive team is not enough ? Folks paying big bucks at the Bell want to see a better show next season, not a worse.

Not happening bud, we are in rebuilding mode, finally!!

 

[1909]

Not happening bud, we are in rebuilding mode, finally!!

Unlike the Quebec Nordiques, Habs won't have acesst to draft picks like Sundin, Nolan, Sakic or Lindros (which gave them Forsberg)+++.

 

[Ezpz]

Unlike the Quebec Nordiques, Habs won't have acesst to draft picks like Sundin, Nolan, Sakic or Lindros (which gave them Forsberg)+++.

Best players still typically go 1st overall. Even in weak years the next McDavid is coming eventually and Bedard looks to be one of the strongest since Matthews. A weak 5 years doesn't mean it'll continue that way. After Lindros look at 92-96. Hamrlik, Daigle, Jovanovski, Berard, Phillips. Then look at 04-09. Ovy, Crosby, Johnson(lol), Kane, Stamkos. There's always ups and downs.

 

[McPhees Moustache]

Unlike the Quebec Nordiques, Habs won't have acesst to draft picks like Sundin, Nolan, Sakic or Lindros (which gave them Forsberg)+++.

Pretty early to be calling/limiting what this years draft picks will become - not to say I expect a Sakic/Sundin level prospect out of this year's draft but you just don't know until a player is fully developed.
I think next years draft does have a couple of prospects that could turn out to be elite/generational talents

I get that there are people not on board with the rebuild but I just don't understand how anyone can honestly see a path to a contending team with the current core.

 

[1909]

Pretty early to be calling/limiting what this years draft picks will become - not to say I expect a Sakic/Sundin level prospect out of this year's draft but you just don't know until a player is fully developed.
I think next years draft does have a couple of prospects that could turn out to be elite/generational talents

I get that there are people not on board with the rebuild but I just don't understand how anyone can honestly see a path to a contending team with the current core.

Very hard to judge the core when everything that had to go wrong, went wrong. Injuries to key players, COVID, losses piling up and morale going down.

I still think that on paper, that team was looking pretty good before the training camp. Of course, no one knew Price and Edmundson would be away for so long. And no one knew yet the huge impact of Weber's absence, and Danault, Perry and Tatar departures to other teams.

Under a new coach, more dynamic and inspiring coach, this team ould had been way better too.

Of course now it is easy to see that this team had no choice but start from scratch. When you are dealing the best assets, players who could had been important leaders to be part of this reconstruction are dealt or will be.

I am more worried about having to keep rotten apples like Hoffman, Armia, Petry, Drouin and even Gally to build around. Won't work.