Confirmed with Link: Toffoli to CGY for Emil Heineman, Tyler Pitlick + Picks (Part 2)

[Toene]

That is risky trading a goal scorer for a 'chance' to land Bedard, which isn't a given.. plus.. its Bedard, not McDavid. You do not sell the farm for a guy like Bedard. I respect all you guys who support this trade but I just don't like it at all for the growth of this team, the players and the fans.

Bedard is the closest prospect to McDavid since McDavid.

 

[26Mats]

Unlike the Quebec Nordiques, Habs won't have acesst to draft picks like Sundin, Nolan, Sakic or Lindros (which gave them Forsberg)+++.

4 number 1 overall picks - yes that won't be happening as the NHL ruled you literally won't be able to have the number 1 overall pick in such a short time.

Amazing for Colorado that they got a rebuilt team without having to go through a rebuild.

 

[lamp9post]

Very hard to judge the core when everything that had to go wrong, went wrong. Injuries to key players, COVID, losses piling up and morale going down.

I still think that on paper, that team was looking pretty good before the training camp. Of course, no one knew Price and Edmundson would be away for so long. And no one knew yet the huge impact of Weber's absence, and Danault, Perry and Tatar departures to other teams.

Under a new coach, more dynamic and inspiring coach, this team ould had been way better too.

Of course now it is easy to see that this team had no choice but start from scratch. When you are dealing the best assets, players who could had been important leaders to be part of this reconstruction are dealt or will be.

I am more worried about having to keep rotten apples like Hoffman, Armia, Petry, Drouin and even Gally to build around. Won't work.

I'm not too worried about the bolded to be honest.

First off, I don't see Armia as a rotten apple. Sure, he can look lazy/disinterested at times, but that's what happens with big guys who are in a slump. I haven't seen/heard anything from him to suggest he isn't a hard worker or good teammate.

Second, some of these will certainly be moved. Petry has reportedly asked for a trade, and there is also reportedly a market for Petry. It is just a matter of time before we find a new home for him.

Drouin, similar to Armia, may be frustrating to watch at times, but I don't think he's a problem in the room. Maybe he can even step up when he returns in the absence of Toffoli. He's a guy that could turn things around with less pressure and under St. Louis style of coaching (Yes, I'm that naive, lol). If not, well, his contract expires after next season.

I think the most important point is that you don't build around these guys, you build through them. Some vets will remain on the team, sure, but the key is that lineup decisions and player development aren't subverted just so the vets maintain a superficially elevated position in the depth chart. As long as priorities are in-check, it shouldn't be a problem keeping some of these guys around - we do need to ice a roster after all.

 

[Habs]

Bedard is the closest prospect to McDavid since McDavid.

He should never be mentioned in the same breathe.

 

[Toene]

He should never be mentioned in the same breathe.

Let's agree to disagree. I specifically said "closest", never said he'll be as good. But it's way closer than you seem to suggest.

 

[TopTenPlayz]

4 number 1 overall picks - yes that won't be happening as the NHL ruled you literally won't be able to have the number 1 overall pick in such a short time.

Amazing for Colorado that they got a rebuilt team without having to go through a rebuild.

They sucked donkey ballz for almost 10 years and had many top 10 picks: Duchene#3, Landeskog#2, Siemens #11, Mack#1, Rantanen#9, Jost#10, Makar#4, Byram (#4: shrewd trade from Duchene)

 

[Mandalorian]

He should never be mentioned in the same breathe.

Phenomenal 15 years old start in the WHL.

Despite his slow starts, he sits currently at 1.5PPG in his 16 years old which is better than most elite player did in their 16 years old season. He has 39 points in his last 16 games.

While no prospect currently compare to McDavid, he is definitely the closest to what he was as a prospect since 2015. The kid has superstar/franchise potential written all over him.

 

[Habs]

Phenomenal 15 years old start in the WHL.

Despite his slow starts, he sits currently at 1.5PPG in his 16 years old which is better than most elite player did in their 16 years old season. He has 39 points in his last 16 games.

While no prospect currently compare to McDavid, he is definitely the closest to what he was as a prospect since 2015. The kid has superstar/franchise potential written all over him.

have you seen him play or are you just a stats guy? I've watched him a fair amount, I reserve my opinion based on that. The CHL is also a joke this year if you ask me, there is zero travel until recently. Kid is talented, of course. I'm gunshy because of the others before hims with the same status

I'm hoping he's legit, I really do. He isn't big, he isn't strong so he would need any team but Montreal to succeed with the number of smurfs this team is built around. This team needs an entire new identify for players like CC or a Bedard to shine, and until the team paints a picture of that direction, I'm not holding out much faith

 

[JoelWarlord]

Define "making a difference".

You realise our 22-year-old center needs a winger if he is to have any enjoyment in playing for us and if he is to develop properly? And not only that. He has to have a winger capable of producing on the first line, where they are the focus for the opposition. Up to date, the only winger that has not looked like a complete dog shit in this role was Tyler Toffoli. So yeah, that's making a difference in my book.

It's certainly a tough compromise but at the end of the day Toffoli is a guy who just had a career year with us, was never the fastest skater, and will be turning 30 in a couple of months. He just doesn't match up with any plausible timeline to be a playoff team unless you're extremely bullish on guys like Caufield/Guhle/Romanov/Suzuki/2022 1st rounder all taking big steps for the 23-24 season.

I agree with you on the broader point of not overvaluing picks and prospects and giving your young players help so you don't just languish in futility, but I don't think trading Toffoli means we're committing to that path. It's just good value for a player who isn't going to be part of a future Canadiens core, and I think the new front office is going to be fairly aggressive in UFA and trade bringing in some vets and reclamation projects. Could they have kept him and made this deal in a year or two? Perhaps, but I also think there's some real concerns about skating and I'd rather take this package as is and move on than risking the chance of some decline in the future.

That is risky trading a goal scorer for a 'chance' to land Bedard, which isn't a given.. plus.. its Bedard, not McDavid. You do not sell the farm for a guy like Bedard. I respect all you guys who support this trade but I just don't like it at all for the growth of this team, the players and the fans.

Of course, but they did get a good return here. It's not like this move is just to make the team worse next year. I get what you're saying here but this is Tyler Toffoli with 2 seasons of term left, not a franchise superstar. He's a good player and I was happy to have him with the Habs, but we'll be able to find another winger in the future and the return wasn't chopped liver.

 

[Adam Michaels]

LeBrun was on Marinaro's Sick Podcast. And there, LeBrun mentioned that from his sources in Calgary, that Pelletier, Poirier, and some of their other top prospects were not available to Montreal in the trade.

He also said that from what he understands, the Habs would have been happy if they got Pelletier instead of the 1st. They they would have preferred Pelletier and Heineman. But as already mentioned, he was an untouchable in this particular trade.

 

[salbutera]

LeBrun was on Marinaro's Sick Podcast. And there, LeBrun mentioned that from his sources in Calgary, that Pelletier, Poirier, and some of their other top prospects were not available to Montreal in the trade.

He also said that from what he understands, the Habs would have been happy if they got Pelletier instead of the 1st. They they would have preferred Pelletier and Heineman. But as already mentioned, he was an untouchable in this particular trade.

Flames TSN reporter Salim Valji said Coronado & Pelletier were the only untouchables in Cgy, right after trade was announced

 

[Habs]

LeBrun was on Marinaro's Sick Podcast. And there, LeBrun mentioned that from his sources in Calgary, that Pelletier, Poirier, and some of their other top prospects were not available to Montreal in the trade.

He also said that from what he understands, the Habs would have been happy if they got Pelletier instead of the 1st. They they would have preferred Pelletier and Heineman. But as already mentioned, he was an untouchable in this particular trade.

So we got bullied around, just like the last gm? Terrific. We were in the position of strength, so why even move TT until the trade deadline? Why not actually 'insist' on the prospect you wanted, or pull the deal away? lots of teams would have lined up for TT.

 

[The Last Red]

Let's agree to disagree. I specifically said "closest", never said he'll be as good. But it's way closer than you seem to suggest.

He absolutely might become as good as McDavid one day.

 

[The Last Red]

So we got bullied around, just like the last gm? Terrific. We were in the position of strength, so why even move TT until the trade deadline? Why not actually 'insist' on the prospect you wanted, or pull the deal away? lots of teams would have lined up for TT.

Because the return WAS sufficient and if you wait, he could get injured and there goes your tradable asset - he probably has more value now than in the summer.

 

[Habs]

Because the return WAS sufficient and if you wait, he could get injured and there goes your tradable asset - he probably has more value now than in the summer.

Trade deadline isn't far away though, and they are still playing Shitrot

 

[salbutera]

Trade deadline isn't far away though, and they are still playing Shitrot

Isn’t he on IR?

 

[Habs]

Isn’t he on IR?

well he was playing until that lol.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

well he was playing until that lol.

Trade deadline is a month away.

 

[Adam Michaels]

So we got bullied around, just like the last gm? Terrific. We were in the position of strength, so why even move TT until the trade deadline? Why not actually 'insist' on the prospect you wanted, or pull the deal away? lots of teams would have lined up for TT.

Bullied

And you saying like Bergevin tells me you were either not paying attention or just echoing many people's dislike of him. Because if there is one aspect that Bergevin excelled in, it was trades. So "bullied like the last GM" is as inaccurate as it gets.

You also talk as if the Habs settled for the 1st round pick. Sure LeBrun said they would have preferred Pelletier over the pick. But Pelletier was off the table. And Habs were happy to get the pick, as well.

Sure you could have waited closer to the TDL to move him. But you don't know if you will get a better return then. For all we know, his value could decrease by then or even worse, he can get hurt. And with the way this year has gone for the Habs, that is a distinct possibility. Toffoli already missed time to an injury this year.

Position of strength.... one of the strengths of this deal wasn't just the return, it was also no salary retained. The Habs save 2.5M this year and TT's entire 4.25M cap hit over the next two years.

I'll finish with your comment that teams would have lined up. Habs didn't make Toffoli available. So it's not like teams would have been lining up. Habs would have gladly kept TT. This is a case of Calgary really wanting him.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

I am more worried about having to keep rotten apples like Hoffman, Armia, Petry, Drouin and even Gally to build around. Won't work.

I'm worried about the same too. Other teams will want the best players. Toffoli is one of them, the next one will be Chiarot. And it will be hard to trade Petry. So Habs will have the contracts of Gallagher, Drouin, Armia and Hoffman. They wont have takers, we'll be stucked with them. Not the best vets to be honest. So our best vets will be Edmunston, Anderson, Allen, Savard and Gallagher.
I've seen better. The miracle could be the leadership comes from the youth : Suzuki, Caufield, Ghule, Harris and Romanov. And Wright and Bedard, if we are lucky to pick them. I just named players who never played a single game in nhl and players we didn't draft yet. I am ridiculous, yes I know. I try to think like a typical optimistic Habs fan.

 

[26Mats]

LeBrun was on Marinaro's Sick Podcast. And there, LeBrun mentioned that from his sources in Calgary, that Pelletier, Poirier, and some of their other top prospects were not available to Montreal in the trade.

He also said that from what he understands, the Habs would have been happy if they got Pelletier instead of the 1st. They they would have preferred Pelletier and Heineman. But as already mentioned, he was an untouchable in this particular trade.

I wonder if we could have gotten Pelltier, Zary, or Coronato alone for Toffoli and Chiarot... Probably not, as they are untouchable in a deal for a vet for a couple playoff runs.

 

[JoelWarlord]

The fanbase that wasn't willing to trade Ryan Poehling for Ryan O'Reilly is now upset we got a 1st instead of Pelletier for Tyler Toffoli?

 

[McPhees Moustache]

I'm worried about the same too. Other teams will want the best players. Toffoli is one of them, the next one will be Chiarot. And it will be hard to trade Petry. So Habs will have the contracts of Gallagher, Drouin, Armia and Hoffman. They wont have takers, we'll be stucked with them. Not the best vets to be honest. So our best vets will be Edmunston, Anderson, Allen, Savard and Gallagher.
I've seen better. The miracle could be the leadership comes from the youth : Suzuki, Caufield, Ghule, Harris and Romanov. And Wright and Bedard, if we are lucky to pick them. I just named players who never played a single game in nhl and players we didn't draft yet. I am ridiculous, yes I know. I try to think like a typical optimistic Habs fan.

I would like to see at least a couple of those deals gone as well - perhaps once the 'easy' trades have been made they'll look at attaching assets/retain on one or two of those deals if necessary. (Drouin will be gone by the end of next year regardless - I'd give him next season in a purely offensive role again to see if he can't be turned back into a 'positive' asset)

 

[Adam Michaels]

I wonder if we could have gotten Pelltier, Zary, or Coronato alone for Toffoli and Chiarot... Probably not, as they are untouchable in a deal for a vet for a couple playoff runs.

LeBrun did say, as we already learned, that there was a bigger deal being worked on that had both Toffoli and Chiarot heading to Calgary.

However, Flames weren't willing to part with even more assets. So they settled on focusing on Toffoli only.

So that gives you an idea that even though they wanted both Toffoli and Chiarot, they just weren't willing to give up a Pelletier, Poirier, Coronato or Zary.

So if they weren't willing to give them up to get two players, then they surely weren't going to give any of them up for just one player.

 

[26Mats]

LeBrun did say, as we already learned, that there was a bigger deal being worked on that had both Toffoli and Chiarot heading to Calgary.

However, Flames weren't willing to part with even more assets. So they settled on focusing on Toffoli only.

So that gives you an idea that even though they wanted both Toffoli and Chiarot, they just weren't willing to give up a Pelletier, Poirier, Coronato or Zary.

So if they weren't willing to give them up to get two players, then they surely weren't going to give any of them up for just one player.

Well Zary and Pelletier are late 1sts. So let's hope Gorton and Hughes know how to find a really good prospect with Calgary's 1st, because Hughes also seems high on Heineman.

Plus there will be more return coming for Chiarot. Really curious to see if a team will give up the 1st Hughes is holding out for. It sounds like Hugues wants to pull the trigger asap.