Confirmed with Link: Toffoli to CGY for Emil Heineman, Tyler Pitlick + Picks (Part 2)

[CHarlie]

They must be really high on Heineman.....hopefully that pans out!

 

[Colezuki]

Bergevin would have gotten more.

People will miss him when we start losing trades.

Berg would win trades but never in a way that helped the team. Sure we’d turn a nickel to a dime every now and then but we’d also never trade those dimes for quarters in case anyones forgotten it’s his team Hughes is disassembling. Besides anyone who didn’t know toff was available isn’t doing there jobs every podcast talked about Calgary and LA’s interest in toffoli

 

[CHarlie]

These GMs that didn't know didnt care or they definitely would of inquired..... Its no secret that we are dead last in the league with a new management team in place.

 

[Andy]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but Pierre Lebrun said he talked to a bunch of GMs and they didn't even know that Toffoli was in play, the trade was initiated by Calgary.

Basically he didn't get shopped and so the return was dependent on the few teams who actively approached us for him.

That's nuts if true and explains the underwhelming return.

Reminds me of the time GMs said they didn’t know Halak was available.

The habs are a historically bad team, everyone is available. Sounds like some GMs are asleep at the wheel

 

[yianik]

Remember what Hughes said at the PC, that he is not waiting until close to the deadline before making trades in the hopes of higher prices, that they will move players now if the price meets his expectation.

So he may not have burned the phone lines a la MB in trying to trade Toffoli.

By making that statement , he is telling GMs that they don't have time to trade for our players if interested, and they should come forward now with their offers.

My take on his personality is he is much more laid back than MB, doesn't need the adrenaline rush of the 100 daily phone calls and wheeling and dealing stuff.

Interesting how this will play out. MB is a guy who would spend 10 hours on the phone to see who we could get the best 6th round draft pick for a guy, Hughes strikes me as not that type.

 

[DAChampion]

Bergevin took three weeks to negotiate the John Scott trade, that's not the right way to do things.

 

[dcyhabs]

Reminds me of the time GMs said they didn’t know Halak was available.

The habs are a historically bad team, everyone is available. Sounds like some GMs are asleep at the wheel

Sometimes you want a bidding war, sometimes you or the player have something in mind. They probably didn't want to move Toffoli, and wanted to make sure he was happy, so they took slightly less value. There aren't many teams who can take on salary and there probably aren't many teams that Toffoli would actively want to play for. There is long term value in making sure you treat players like people as well as assets.

 

[dcyhabs]

Remember what Hughes said at the PC, that he is not waiting until close to the deadline before making trades in the hopes of higher prices, that they will move players now if the price meets his expectation.

So he may not have burned the phone lines a la MB in trying to trade Toffoli.

By making that statement , he is telling GMs that they don't have time to trade for our players if interested, and they should come forward now with their offers.

My take on his personality is he is much more laid back than MB, doesn't need the adrenaline rush of the 100 daily phone calls and wheeling and dealing stuff.

Interesting how this will play out. MB is a guy who would spend 10 hours on the phone to see who we could get the best 6th round draft pick for a guy, Hughes strikes me as not that type.

If you're consistent about direction it doesn't matter if you maximize every step of the journey. If you don't have a direction it doesn't matter how fast you go in any given leg.

Bergevin was good at some aspects but he wasn't consistent. Forward, back, sideways, lots of going backwards. We'll see if Hughes can be more strategic even if he doesn't go as far for some of the day to day operations.

 

[SpitfireG]

Definitely 10 points to Hughes for this trade and right timing.
Heinemann and 1st round it's a steal for 3rd line 30yrs old player. Heinemann is a key figure in this trade.

 

[windycity]

Definitely 10 points to Hughes for this trade and right timing.
Heinemann and 1st round it's a steal for 3rd line 30yrs old player. Heinemann is a key figure in this trade.

You’re underselling Tough au Lit, he’s a legit top 6 winger, at a good age with a great contract. I think both teams got fair value, and if anything Calgary probably got a bit of an edge. Hardly a steal for the Habs. We’ll see how it plays out.

 

[jaffy27]

Bergevin took three weeks to negotiate the John Scott trade, that's not the right way to do things.

Why did it take 3 weeks?

like 3 weeks of what? Hardcore negotiating?

Sorry, I don’t remember reading that, maybe you have a sound bite or link.

 

[angusyoung]

Don't know what the consensus is but seems like a solid move. Free up some cap.Get a guy that can be put on waivers or worse case scenario he's gone at season end. A couple of picks and a player that looks like a clone of Artturi Lehkonen.

 

[jaffy27]

Definitely 10 points to Hughes for this trade and right timing.
Heinemann and 1st round it's a steal for 3rd line 30yrs old player. Heinemann is a key figure in this trade.

I’m not ready to give a 10 on this trade.

I’ll give this one a 7 as on the surface it has room to grow but it depends how the prospect and picks pan out.

It has potential for a 9 but we’ll need to see how they fair.

It does look promising though

 

[Habs Halifax]

They must be really high on Heineman.....hopefully that pans out!

Some people say Lehkonen as a comparable but I see him more like a Hyman. More goals then he has for assists (or close to the same). He's on a good development track and he's got that work ethic, body size, and shot power. I like what I see so far but he's got more development yet.

A good pick-up for us. A guy like this helps make things easier for his center (whoever that may be in the future)

 

[Archijerej]

Definitely 10 points to Hughes for this trade and right timing.
Heinemann and 1st round it's a steal for 3rd line 30yrs old player. Heinemann is a key figure in this trade.

Tyler Toffoli is now a 3rd line player? Wow!

 

[Adam Michaels]

I’m not ready to give a 10 on this trade.

I’ll give this one a 7 as on the surface it looks like a 9 but it depends how the prospect and picks pan out.

This one has a 9 written all over it but we’ll need to see how they fair with the picks and the progression of this prospect.

It does look promising though

I know I've said this numerous times. And I'm not the only one who has said it. But for no salary retained, being able to get a 1st and a prospect is a good deal.

Of course how that pick and Heineman pan out is TBD.

 

[417]

Why would it backfire if he shopped Toffoli? The players all talked to Hughes beforehand and Toffoli knew the odds were high he would be traded, so the rumors wouldn't matter.

Because the Flames can turn around and trade for another player...I don't know, many things can happen.

I'm sure some GMs aren't fans of their fair offers being shopped around. I don't think that's how GM's work in real life trade negotiations for players who aren't actively being shopped.

You can use an "auction" style trade tactic for Ben Chiarot, whose a valued pending free agent...i'm not sure if that works for all of your players though.

That IMO, would be a rookie move for a rookie GM.

Our biggest assets need to be managed carefully to maximize value.

And what makes you think that's not exactly what happened here? Just because he didn't play "beat this offer" with 31 other GMs before accepting the offer from the Flames, doesn't mean they didn't manage the asset carefully.

For sure in the end the first round pick and Heineman could be great but it's a big risk.

Risk? How? The team is 32nd overall...what are they risking exactly? lol

 

[jaffy27]

I know I've said this numerous times. And I'm not the only one who has said it. But for no salary retained, being able to get a 1st and a prospect is a good deal.

Of course how that pick and Heineman pan out is TBD.

Agree….erasing that salary was a big one, love the player but our window has now closed.

The two picks are good, exciting for us fans, I honestly can’t wait for the lottery special for draft position AND the draft.

I can say with certainty and I’m calling it right now, whoever we pick at 1st or 2nd overall, posters will be pissed and losing it

Guess that’s what happens when there’s no clear cut no doubt about it #1

 

[Archijerej]

It's certainly a tough compromise but at the end of the day Toffoli is a guy who just had a career year with us, was never the fastest skater, and will be turning 30 in a couple of months. He just doesn't match up with any plausible timeline to be a playoff team unless you're extremely bullish on guys like Caufield/Guhle/Romanov/Suzuki/2022 1st rounder all taking big steps for the 23-24 season.

I agree with you on the broader point of not overvaluing picks and prospects and giving your young players help so you don't just languish in futility, but I don't think trading Toffoli means we're committing to that path. It's just good value for a player who isn't going to be part of a future Canadiens core, and I think the new front office is going to be fairly aggressive in UFA and trade bringing in some vets and reclamation projects. Could they have kept him and made this deal in a year or two? Perhaps, but I also think there's some real concerns about skating and I'd rather take this package as is and move on than risking the chance of some decline in the future.


Of course, but they did get a good return here. It's not like this move is just to make the team worse next year. I get what you're saying here but this is Tyler Toffoli with 2 seasons of term left, not a franchise superstar. He's a good player and I was happy to have him with the Habs, but we'll be able to find another winger in the future and the return wasn't chopped liver.

No argument from me that Toffoli would have to be traded sooner or later and that he was not a part of the future roster that we're trying to build. I was merely making a point about timing and the value of return.

Without knowing the whole picture of how our next year's roster shapes out and what do we really have in Heineman, I'm not willing to burn Gorton/Hughes on the stake. But I also don't see any reasons to praise them for this trade.

 

[sampollock]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but Pierre Lebrun said he talked to a bunch of GMs and they didn't even know that Toffoli was in play, the trade was initiated by Calgary.

Basically he didn't get shopped and so the return was dependent on the few teams who actively approached us for him.

That's nuts if true and explains the underwhelming return.

Pierre may know this maybe

what if this gets the attention now, of other teams if you want a guy get serious and ask

 

[dcyhabs]

Tyler Toffoli is now a 3rd line player? Wow!

Berkshire posted stats in the Gazette. In scoring terms he's played like a very low end top line player most years. He scored more than some first liners and pretty much all second liners. Putting him as a third liner is doubly wrong because his defense is good but not shutdown line good. He's an elite second line player or a weak first line player offensively. His last two seasons have been good. I suppose power play time comes into consideration but then the habs power play has been terrible.

Calgary should do fine on this one. Toffoli won't be expected to play first line and he'll have physical players to open space.

Hughes might have been able to get more offers and, possibly, better value with a bidding war, but there is value in sending Toffoli somewhere he wants to go as well. Players will be more willing to sign or accept trades if they know the GM will consider their interests when it is time to leave.

 

[Habs Halifax]

No argument from me that Toffoli would have to be traded sooner or later and that he was not a part of the future roster that we're trying to build. I was merely making a point about timing and the value of return.

Without knowing the whole picture of how our next year's roster shapes out and what do we really have in Heineman, I'm not willing to burn Gorton/Hughes on the stake. But I also don't see any reasons to praise them for this trade.

Very fair. A small part of me wonders how this trade plays out over time. I would not consider it great or horrible yet. I'm content with it (for now).

The one area I do value is the vision. If Gorton/Hughes are consistent with their vision for more than just one year, I will back them up. Something we could not say with Bergevin

 

[Frank JT]

Bergevin would have gotten more.

People will miss him when we start losing trades.

If we are stuke with a bad team situation, bad contracts, Bergevin era results, we should not be surprised not to get the moon for our players during transactions. I hope Hughes and Gorton will make good exchanges, but they started with two strikes in several cases (Gallagher, Hoffman, Price, Savard, etc.). We have to take this into account.

 

[CaptainKirk]

The one area I do value is the vision. If Gorton/Hughes are consistent with their vision for more than just one year, I will back them up. Something we could not say with Bergevin

Bergevin's vision was blurred behind his tears for Gallagher after giving him a 6year 6.5M, limited NTC contract.

 

[yianik]

If you're consistent about direction it doesn't matter if you maximize every step of the journey. If you don't have a direction it doesn't matter how fast you go in any given leg.

Bergevin was good at some aspects but he wasn't consistent. Forward, back, sideways, lots of going backwards. We'll see if Hughes can be more strategic even if he doesn't go as far for some of the day to day operations.

I found the comments really interesting. MB did really well in trades, certainly overall, with just one significant fail that I can think of. He was good at it.

However, on a big picture basis you are right , he was often questioned here about his strategic thinking. Sergachev for Drouin ( would be the real bad trade to which I was referring ). Ended up being a bad trade value wise, but strategically was a bad move, winger for our best D prospect when we really needed D and Cs with top line/ pair potential.

Hopefully Hughes and Gorton have that strategic view.