Toews HHOF

[Hawksfan2828]

It raises the interesting point of whether or not guys need to stick around to just pad stats to make it into the HOF. Keon was inducted for what he did in the first half of his career. And he's far from the only one in that category. It's kind of strange to think somebody needs to stick around for a while as a lesser player in order to be rewarded for the earlier years spent as a true HOF player.

Exactly, that's why I'm kind of boggled as to why some don't think he's a HOFer already. Toews already has enough on his resume to get in, sure enough regardless of what he does in the future he's still in. Of course he will just pad is stats, may win another Selke or two, a couple more metals and hopefully a couple more cups and perhaps another Smythe. However if he doesn't get any more cups or anymore awards and puts up a respectable .75ppg for the next 5-7 seasons he's still a HOFer.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Exactly, that's why I'm kind of boggled as to why some don't think he's a HOFer already. Toews already has enough on his resume to get in, sure enough regardless of what he does in the future he's still in. Of course he will just pad is stats, may win another Selke or two, a couple more metals and hopefully a couple more cups and perhaps another Smythe. However if he doesn't get any more cups or anymore awards and puts up a respectable .75ppg for the next 5-7 seasons he's still a HOFer.

Putting up .75 ppg for the next half decade is hardly just stat padding though, assuming he remains a great defensive player. That would definitely add to his case.

Where it gets interesting is if he suddenly drops off to a level well below HOF caliber. Say he turns into early 00's Rod Brind'Amour. Ends up scraping his way to 1000 points, no more Cups. I think almost everyone would say he's a HOFer, but really he did nothing after 2015 to bolster his case. Sort of an odd paradox, but that seems to be the way it works.

 

[OzzyFan]

Putting up .75 ppg for the next half decade is hardly just stat padding though, assuming he remains a great defensive player. That would definitely add to his case.

Where it gets interesting is if he suddenly drops off to a level well below HOF caliber. Say he turns into early 00's Rod Brind'Amour. Ends up scraping his way to 1000 points, no more Cups. I think almost everyone would say he's a HOFer, but really he did nothing after 2015 to bolster his case. Sort of an odd paradox, but that seems to be the way it works.

I think it's more debate about his prime length. Say for some reason at age 29 Toews has 650pts, and Toews dips below 60pts a year going forward while scoring levels in the nhl stay the same. Toews eclipses 1000pts at 38yrs of age from "stat padding" hypothetically, since his prime ended at 29 and never having a top 10pts finish, never winning a cup again, never winning another selke in his career. His intangibles/team-international awards get him in with his selke finishes, but if it wasn't for the cups/golds/smythe, he'd have a hell of a time getting in. By all means, he's on his way to a HOF career, but if he retired today, he should by no means by a 1st balloter.

 

[The Panther]

It does raise the interesting question of, 'how many years do you have to be great before you're qualified for the Hall of Fame?' I mean, Toews is sort of great, but he's not elite. Therefore, I can't see him being eligible unless he's had a fairly lengthy career.

In 1984, everybody would have said 23-year-old Barry Pederson was a probable lock for the Hall of Fame. How about Joe Juneau after his rookie year? Now, of course these guys didn't perform at a super-high level for very long, and Toews has them well beat already. But what about Eric Lindros? It would be nonsensical for 26-year-old Toews to be voted in while Lindros isn't.

He'll be in there someday, but he's gotta pay his dues.

 

[Syckle78]

Exactly, that's why I'm kind of boggled as to why some don't think he's a HOFer already. Toews already has enough on his resume to get in, sure enough regardless of what he does in the future he's still in. Of course he will just pad is stats, may win another Selke or two, a couple more metals and hopefully a couple more cups and perhaps another Smythe. However if he doesn't get any more cups or anymore awards and puts up a respectable .75ppg for the next 5-7 seasons he's still a HOFer.

Theres a difference between padding stats and actually having stats worthy of the hall of fame. Once again sub ppg and one selke is not hall worthy....period. and comparing him to lesser inductees doesn't help your case. If you have to appeal to the lowest common denominator it doesn't say much for your case. We're talking about guys like ovie, Crosby and Malkin with full trophy cases in the first half of their career. Seriously the only case being made for Toews in this thread is mosr overrated ever.

 

[Syckle78]

Tell that to Henri Richard and some of the other Canadians.

He still has more cups and personal awards than these HOF players -

- Michelle Goulet
- Dino Ciccarelli
- Cam Neely
- Pat LaFontaine
- Bernie Federko
- Mike Gartner
- Dale Hawerchuk
- Denis Savard
- Peter Stastny
- Borje Salming

The list could go on

Those guys have no cups and no personal awards... Yet, Toews isn't in already given his resume?

I suppose if a player wants to get into the HOF (using some peoples logic) the player should focus on personal awards instead of trying to win a cup or gold metal.

Hhof is a personal accomplishment, so yea it only stands to reason you need to stand out on an individual level.

 

[Big Phil]

At the same time tho I didn't include players that have won cups but no personal awards that are in the HOF in my list. Players from dynasty teams that are borderline HOFer's outside of their cups. Players like Glenn Anderson, Grant Fuhr (1 vezina), Clark Gillies, Henri Richard, Guy Lapointe, Billy Smith, Steve Shutt, Darryl Sittler (he never won anything) etc....

Smith did win the Vezina in 1982 and Conn Smythe in 1983. But I see what you are saying. If winning an individual award was a requirement for the HHOF then Brad Park wouldn't even be in there. Or Gilbert Perreault. Or Frank Mahovlich if you can believe it.

It raises the interesting point of whether or not guys need to stick around to just pad stats to make it into the HOF. Keon was inducted for what he did in the first half of his career. And he's far from the only one in that category. It's kind of strange to think somebody needs to stick around for a while as a lesser player in order to be rewarded for the earlier years spent as a true HOF player.

It isn't as if he did nothing after 1967 either. Keon was a 2nd team all-star in 1971 and finished 4th for the Hart. But yes, the bulk of his HHOF worth happened up until 1967. I just think we as fans, and the HHOF, likes to see a bit of longevity. Knowing a guy can be relevant, or a star, into his 30s is important.

 

[MXD]

Can we please stop name-dropping an upper tier HHOFer as an example of a player who got in because he won lots of Cups ?

 

[Big Phil]

Can we please stop name-dropping an upper tier HHOFer as an example of a player who got in because he won lots of Cups ?

Upper tier? Henri Richard you mean? Just guessing. If so, yes I agree he isn't just in because he has 11 Cups.

 

[Hardyvan123]

it's funny: he has almost exactly half of dave keon's resume. so maybe the question is: could Dave keon have made the HHOF if you cut his career in half?

Funny Keon is who I thought about msot of in this thread, as the type of guy who got in on reopurtaion, and is still held in too high estemm by some for a Conn Smythe and not really much else in his career (for a HHOF guy).

The HHOF voters like guys like Keon and Toews because of their reputation more than their stats or accomplishments.

Toews is tracking better than Keon IMO but that would never show up on any top centers list here or ATD for that matter.

 

[Killion]

Funny Keon is who I thought about msot of in this thread, as the type of guy who got in on reopurtaion, and is still held in too high estemm by some for a Conn Smythe and not really much else in his career (for a HHOF guy).

What?!... Hv, this is just so wrong on so many levels..... Dave Keon (along with Henri Richard) was one of the smartest players to have ever played the game. The guy was an absolute Maestro coming or going, one of the craftiest two way players Ive ever had the pleasure to watch. He was a total two-way forward, complete package. Full tool-box. Sure he had his best years through the 60's and into the early 70's really... like Henri maybe hung around too long post WHA & so on but really, he like many others had extended careers & more or less cashing in as their services were in demand with a rival league & NHL Expansion. But even still, players like Keon & of his generation, extremely smart players, out thinking & outfoxing younger, more energetic, bigger & faster players no problem. Dave Keon even into his twilight, just a brilliant player. Youve got the wrong end of the stick on this one. He was arguably (Ted Kennedy the other name most often mentioned) the Greatest Leaf of All Time.

 

[K Fleur]

At this rate the HHOF will have to open up a whole new wing just to to fit all of Toews' intangibles inside.

I don't think he's that strong of a candidate. 1 Hart, 1 All-NHL 1st team, Pearson, 1 all-NHL second team. All that came within two seasons.

Lindros is a much stronger HOF candidate than Toews at the moment. Off the ice Toews has him beat sure(which in the grand scheme of things how important really is that, when this sport is played on the ice not in media interviews), but on the ice Lindros was by far a better, and more dominant player than Toews has shown himself to be.


Man has Lindros gotten undersold, and underappreciated since he left the game. At his peak he was one of the most dominant, offensively skilled, and imposing (words not often, if ever, used to describe Toews) players the sport has ever seen.

 

[Voight]

Say he turns into early 00's Rod Brind'Amour. Ends up scraping his way to 1000 points, no more Cups. I think almost everyone would say he's a HOFer, but really he did nothing after 2015 to bolster his case. Sort of an odd paradox, but that seems to be the way it works.

Whats wrong with early 2000's Brind'Amour? Sure he wasn't a 70 point scorer anymore but he became a very good two-way player and won the first two Selkes after the lockout.

Even if you remove the 2000-2001 thru 2003-2004 seasons he still ends up with a comfortable 1,298 points. So he was hardly "scraping his way" to 1000 points.

 

[JackSlater]

It's kind of funny that Toews' reputation would be much higher here if the common method for rating players from many decades ago (what's been written about said player) was applied to him. The praise that Toews has received from the media (various instances of it seriously being asked if he is the possibly the best player in the world) easily puts him into the HHOF, but it's mostly ignored. Of course it's better to have access to those opinion as well as the option of seeing the player in action, but it makes me wonder about some popular media opinions from long ago.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

two more questions:

- what if he falls off a cliff like mike richards, post-2012? i mean, the first six years of mike richards' career he's the poor man's toews right?

- where do you draw the line with high peak/high resume guys with no longevity? toews has a phenomenal resume; ticks every box other than the 1,000 game/point mark. how about keith? kane? doughty? or if you keep moving on down that slope, 2012 mike richards?

 

[Hardyvan123]

What?!... Hv, this is just so wrong on so many levels..... Dave Keon (along with Henri Richard) was one of the smartest players to have ever played the game. The guy was an absolute Maestro coming or going, one of the craftiest two way players Ive ever had the pleasure to watch. He was a total two-way forward, complete package. Full tool-box. Sure he had his best years through the 60's and into the early 70's really... like Henri maybe hung around too long post WHA & so on but really, he like many others had extended careers & more or less cashing in as their services were in demand with a rival league & NHL Expansion. But even still, players like Keon & of his generation, extremely smart players, out thinking & outfoxing younger, more energetic, bigger & faster players no problem. Dave Keon even into his twilight, just a brilliant player. Youve got the wrong end of the stick on this one. He was arguably (Ted Kennedy the other name most often mentioned) the Greatest Leaf of All Time.

sorry but we are going to agree to disagree on this one and I would have Sundin as the "greatest" Leaf of all time or having the most career value of any Leaf player but that's a whole other story.

 

[Hardyvan123]

It's kind of funny that Toews' reputation would be much higher here if the common method for rating players from many decades ago (what's been written about said player) was applied to him. The praise that Toews has received from the media (various instances of it seriously being asked if he is the possibly the best player in the world) easily puts him into the HHOF, but it's mostly ignored. Of course it's better to have access to those opinion as well as the option of seeing the player in action, but it makes me wonder about some popular media opinions from long ago.

Agree 100% with this POV and it does raise some interesting questions doesn't it?

 

[Voight]

sorry but we are going to agree to disagree on this one and I would have Sundin as the "greatest" Leaf of all time or having the most career value of any Leaf player but that's a whole other story.

Keon being there for four championships along with winning the Smythe would give him more career value IMO.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Keon being there for four championships along with winning the Smythe would give him more career value IMO.

That's what I figured the response would be but 4 SC in a 6 team league just isn't that much better, if at all, than 2 SC in a 30 team salary cap league is it?

Dave Keon as the individual player looks alot like Towes, a guy whose reputation is bigger than he is perhaps and the point was brought up that that type of player is treated more favorably in the past than the present, which I think was a fair comment.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Whats wrong with early 2000's Brind'Amour? Sure he wasn't a 70 point scorer anymore but he became a very good two-way player and won the first two Selkes after the lockout.

Even if you remove the 2000-2001 thru 2003-2004 seasons he still ends up with a comfortable 1,298 points. So he was hardly "scraping his way" to 1000 points.

I just used Brind'Amour's play in the early 00's as an example of a good defensive player who's offense dried up to the point that they were no longer considered a top end player. The comment wasn't meant to take into account any other aspects of his career. You could use the San Jose version of Vinny Damphousse or post-2010 Mike Richards to throw out a couple other examples.

 

[Voight]

That's what I figured the response would be but 4 SC in a 6 team league just isn't that much better, if at all, than 2 SC in a 30 team salary cap league is it?

Dave Keon as the individual player looks alot like Towes, a guy whose reputation is bigger than he is perhaps and the point was brought up that that type of player is treated more favorably in the past than the present, which I think was a fair comment.

That wasn't the argument tho.

It was who holds more career value to the Leafs, Sundin or Keon.

 

[Hardyvan123]

That wasn't the argument tho.

It was who holds more career value to the Leafs, Sundin or Keon.

Yes I see that now, I was relating your comment back to the original thread.

That being said "being part of 4 SC teams" hardly makes Keon a better player than Sittler, Salming or Sundin who played on much worse teams does it?

Keon continually had very poor post season all star voting results in a 6 team NHL and even in a 12 team NHL , a legend lie him should do better one would think right?

For the record Toews post season all star voting in context is miles better than Keon's ever was.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

\

Unrelated but I always thought Cournoyer had more points than that. Seems he got in because he was a Hab and was on many cup winners.

You thought correctly - I screwed up and included Cournoyer as a pure post-expansion player, when he actually had a few years prior to expansion. He actually has 863 career points - not great for a player who played as long as he did, but better than I had listed previously

That makes the post-expansion HHOF forwards with the fewest points:

Bob Gainey 501
Igor Larionov 644 (plus a ton in the USSR)
Cam Neely 694
Clark Gillies 697
Pavel Bure 779

Toews now tied Gainey with 501 career points.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yes I see that now, I was relating your comment back to the original thread.

That being said "being part of 4 SC teams" hardly makes Keon a better player than Sittler, Salming or Sundin who played on much worse teams does it?

Keon continually had very poor post season all star voting results in a 6 team NHL and even in a 12 team NHL , a legend lie him should do better one would think right?

For the record Toews post season all star voting in context is miles better than Keon's ever was.

What?

Keon's strong all-star voting record is a big reason he was voted into the HOH Centers Project when he was voted in.

At the time Keon was voted in, only Gilbert Perreault had a better All-Star record among available players: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=76823707&postcount=3

 

[BraveCanadian]

I don't know why you guys are hung up on points and all star records.

They have shown time and time again that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with getting elected to the Hall.

Toews is basically the poster boy for good ole Canadian hockey and a famous captain of two Cup winners, Junior, WC and Olympic gold medalist, Selke and a Conn Smythe winner.

He is in. Book it.