Toews HHOF

[Jumptheshark]

Has Toews done enough already to make the HHOF? If he hung up the skates tomorrow (let's say do to injury) would he make it?

He recorded his 500th point this season and has the following on his resume at only 26 years old:

2x Stanley Cup
2x Olympic Gold Medal
2x WJ Gold
1x WC Gold
1x WC Silver
(all the above is more or less meaningless--those are TEAM accomplishments and not individual accomplishments)-- Scoot Neidermyer had all those and more--but it was his play in the NHL that got him into the hall
556 games played
500 points
218 goals
282 assists
+291

94 playoff games
29 goals
52 assists
81 points
+10

1x Selke Trophy
1x Conn Smythe
Best forward - Olympics 2010 (your opinion)

1x 2nd team all star
5th in goals 12-13

If not what does he need to do to secure his spot in the HHOF?

no not even close if he retired today it would be an easy no

 

[Hardyvan123]

I think he is, and at most a year or two away. 15ish years from now when Toews is inducted it will be the last half-dozen years that will make up the greatest part of his legacy, that's what he'll be remembered for and that's why he'll be inducted. Not his back-nine years featuring declining play and reaching aesthetically pleasing milestones, like 500 points.

pretty much if you ask me.

Thankfully this question doesn't come up often but it did for guys like Bure, Neely and LaFonatiane.

Basically Towes has baked his HHOF cake and legacy and sure some more icing will help but he would get in if he suffered a career ending injury IMO.

 

[The Panther]

There is no way he gets in today; nor should he.

Having said that, he will almost surely get in one day in the far future. But based on what's he done so far? Not even close.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

no not even close if he retired today it would be an easy no

I'm pretty sure the "best forward" at the Olympics was an award given out in the tournament. I guess that means it's someone's opinion but not just the posters.

 

[ozzie]

I agree, he wouldn't get in today as impressive as his resume is. A lot of team accomplishments there too.

A guy like Ovechkin is the complete reverse, he might get in today? because he has the individual honours. But he doesn't have those team accomplishments.

He has the resume any player would dream of, he just needs to hit 1,000 points and stay healthy. Keep doing what he is doing anything above that is gravy. He will get in barring career ending injury.

He reminds me a lot of a guy like Gainey and I expect he will win a few more Selkes over his career.

But in 10 years hopefully we will be looking back at a HHOF career.

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

Because of popularity he will make it. Should he? No.

agreed the hhof is a joke either way so why not let him in

 

[Wrath]

I agree, he wouldn't get in today as impressive as his resume is. A lot of team accomplishments there too.

A guy like Ovechkin is the complete reverse, he might get in today? because he has the individual honours. But he doesn't have those team accomplishments.

He has the resume any player would dream of, he just needs to hit 1,000 points and stay healthy. Keep doing what he is doing anything above that is gravy. He will get in barring career ending injury.

He reminds me a lot of a guy like Gainey and I expect he will win a few more Selkes over his career.

But in 10 years hopefully we will be looking back at a HHOF career.

I think Ovechkin would have to pull a Todd Bertuzzi, or worse, an OJ Simpson, while still an active player for the NHL to not make the HHOF if his career ended this season.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I agree, he wouldn't get in today as impressive as his resume is. A lot of team accomplishments there too.

A guy like Ovechkin is the complete reverse, he might get in today? because he has the individual honours. But he doesn't have those team accomplishments.

He has the resume any player would dream of, he just needs to hit 1,000 points and stay healthy. Keep doing what he is doing anything above that is gravy. He will get in barring career ending injury.

He reminds me a lot of a guy like Gainey and I expect he will win a few more Selkes over his career.

But in 10 years hopefully we will be looking back at a HHOF career.

Your also forgetting the small fact that he is the best goal scorer of our generation and will go down as one of the best ever to play. He has impacted the league and made his mark. He's not in the running for "best player since so so" next to Crosby for no reason.

Sure stanley cups and gol medal help, but if they were THAT important Claude Lemieux would have had a good chance for the hall.

I personally feel Kane has a better shot than Toews that this point of making the HOF

 

[Syckle78]

Hall of team accomplishments. Seriously, one selke and under a ppg is hall worthy? He doesn't even have the best defensive or two way forward of his era label to hang his hat on.

 

[Beau Knows]

no not even close if he retired today it would be an easy no

"Best forward" at the 2010 Olympics wasn't my opinion, it was an award given out at the end of the tournament: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey_at_the_2010_Winter_Olympics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Has Toews done enough already to make the HHOF? If he hung up the skates tomorrow (let's say due to injury) would he make it?

I've spent a fair bit of time (not necessarily on these boards, but in casual 'sports conversation') defending Toews against people who want to make "overrated" his unofficial middle name. And yet, there are many layers to this question...

I don't think there's any doubt that if his career ended in tragic circumstances, he would comfortably get into the Hall of Fame. This realization doesn't really get us any closer to the matter of whether his hockey résumé is sufficiently robust for him to be placed in the Hall of Fame as of now.

I've long carried a mental division of Hall of Fame strata- obvious, mainstream, and borderline. Just speaking with regards to hockey accomplishments, I don't think he's an obvious HoFer, or even a mainstream one. I'd call him borderline. He, of course, has plenty of time to enhance his credentials. He turns 27 later next month. His statistical line- when contrasted against others who tend to get Hall consideration- is pretty pedestrian. Still, (arguably) best player and captain on a team that's won a pair of Stanley Cups [and might not be through yet] is a nice centerpiece on the table.

Some players are better than their fantasy-sports-line or strat-o-matic card. Jonathan Toews is high on the list of such players. Still, reasonable people can disagree as to the impact of his non-quantifiable contributions. If everyone had my view of the value of his contributions in that regard, he'd be in the "mainstream" category. Still- opinions vary-- so he's in the "borderline" file... for the time being.

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

I've spent a fair bit of time (not necessarily on these boards, but in casual 'sports conversation') defending Toews against people who want to make "overrated" his unofficial middle name. And yet, there are many layers to this question...

I don't think there's any doubt that if his career ended in tragic circumstances, he would comfortably get into the Hall of Fame. This realization doesn't really get us any closer to the matter of whether his hockey résumé is sufficiently robust for him to be placed in the Hall of Fame as of now.

I've long carried a mental division of Hall of Fame strata- obvious, mainstream, and borderline. Just speaking with regards to hockey accomplishments, I don't think he's an obvious HoFer, or even a mainstream one. I'd call him borderline. He, of course, has plenty of time to enhance his credentials. He turns 27 later next month. His statistical line- when contrasted against others who tend to get Hall consideration- is pretty pedestrian. Still, (arguably) best player and captain on a team that's won a pair of Stanley Cups [and might not be through yet] is a nice centerpiece on the table.

Some players are better than their fantasy-sports-line or strat-o-matic card. Jonathan Toews is high on the list of such players. Still, reasonable people can disagree as to the impact of his non-quantifiable contributions. If everyone had my view of the value of his contributions in that regard, he'd be in the "mainstream" category. Still- opinions vary-- so he's in the "borderline" file... for the time being.

he was far from the best player for there second cup win... he had 3 goals....less then 1 a round

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

he was far from the best player for there second cup win... he had 3 goals....less then 1 a round

This bothers me to no end. That is such cherry picking. He had 14 points. Kane won the Con Smythe with 19. Toews was very good but unlucky with goals (4.3 shooting%). Also, he had a 21.2 Corsi Rel, far and away the best on the Hawks while being a +9. All while facing the toughest competition.

And for the record, while I'm a Hawks fan , he's not a hall of famer now. He's got the team and individual accomplishments that will push him over if he's borderline in points. But if he gets to 1,000 pts, which given health should happen fairly comfortably, he'll be in for sure.

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

This bothers me to no end. That is such cherry picking. He had 14 points. Kane won the Con Smythe with 19. Toews was very good but unlucky with goals (4.3 shooting%). Also, he had a 21.2 Corsi Rel, far and away the best on the Hawks while being a +9. All while facing the toughest competition.

And for the record, while I'm a Hawks fan , he's not a hall of famer now. He's got the team and individual accomplishments that will push him over if he's borderline in points. But if he gets to 1,000 pts, which given health should happen fairly comfortably, he'll be in for sure.

fair enough, 4 players outscored him so do you see the pens wining the cup if sid is outscored by 4 players on his team....probably not

1000 pts is a completely arbitrary number that should have nothing to do with getting into the hall of fame, espically cause hes 'compiling' points in the sense that he is a consisient but not dominant scorer ( 0 top 10 point finishes)

 

[OzzyFan]

he was far from the best player for there second cup win... he had 3 goals....less then 1 a round

I think that "best player on 2 cup runs thing" is very interesting and very debatable. Obviously Toews has the C, is the 1st line center, and has a Smythe. But there are contenders:

1=Kane= I won't get heavily into this because I think Toews edges out Kane, although it's closer than most want to admit. Still, Kane is right around that tier and if he went PPG this year(healthy) and Toews barely touched 65pts, the argument "today"/"going forward" might go edge Kane. Maybe.

2=KEITH= Everyone either forgets Keith or downplays Keith, yet most consider him a top 1 to top 5 d-man in the nhl. It's not easy comparing d-men to forwards, but I honestly think Keith is the best player over those years/the past cup years than Toews is. Let's compare amongst their peers:

Toews:
557gms
218goals/500pts
1 Selke/1 Smythe
0 top 10 point finishes
1 2nd team all star finish
3X Selke finalist
Playoffs= 94gms/82pts

Keith:
758gms
73goals/412pts
2 Norris's
2 top 10 point finishes amongst d-men(both 2nd place)
2 1st team all star finishes
2X Selke finalist
Playoffs= 93gms/54pts

And if you believe in the point shares system, Keith peaks higher and on average has been a bit better than Toews. Keith is obvious a better offensive d-man than Toews is an offensive forward, but Toews is a better defensive forward than Keith is a defensive d-man(imo at least). It's an interesting argument none the less, and hard to compare d-men to forwards, but in general I think Keith is seen as a better d-man than Toews is a forward, and has the #'s/accomplishments to prove it.

This bothers me to no end. That is such cherry picking. He had 14 points. Kane won the Con Smythe with 19. Toews was very good but unlucky with goals (4.3 shooting%). Also, he had a 21.2 Corsi Rel, far and away the best on the Hawks while being a +9. All while facing the toughest competition.

And for the record, while I'm a Hawks fan , he's not a hall of famer now. He's got the team and individual accomplishments that will push him over if he's borderline in points. But if he gets to 1,000 pts, which given health should happen fairly comfortably, he'll be in for sure.

Linemates have some to do with the possession, but he ultimately becomes a "2nd line" checking center without the top production any way you look at it. But who was the best player on the 2nd cup win is a whole nother debate that could go on for pages.

 

[Wrath]

1000 pts is a completely arbitrary number that should have nothing to do with getting into the hall of fame, espically cause hes 'compiling' points in the sense that he is a consisient but not dominant scorer ( 0 top 10 point finishes)

But yet based on past voting trends... it does.

I agree that basically compiling to milestones should add very little to a player's legacy, but the reality is that the big milestones and career totals do add to a player's HHOF case, it's just how the voters are.

 

[Nathaniel]

He has zero first team all stars. If you can't even be named the best at your position or come top 10 in points as a forward you don't belong in the hall.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

fair enough, 4 players outscored him so do you see the pens wining the cup if sid is outscored by 4 players on his team....probably not

1000 pts is a completely arbitrary number that should have nothing to do with getting into the hall of fame, espically cause hes 'compiling' points in the sense that he is a consisient but not dominant scorer ( 0 top 10 point finishes)

It is an arbitrary number. Just using it as an example. He's got a lot of extras that enhance his resume. Also, I will say as the use of analytics becomes more prevalent and understood by everyone, Toews game will be more appreciated.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

He has zero first team all stars. If you can't even be named the best at your position or come top 10 in points as a forward you don't belong in the hall.

Speaking of arbitrary numbers.

Also, I'm too lazy to look, but I'm guessing Gretzky won probably every first team All star for a 10-15 year run. Does that mean no other centers in that era are HOF worthy? And really, we are going to use the All Stars as some sort of historical guide. Christ Kunitz was 1st team 2 years ago. That same year Ov made 1st and 2nd team. But that's supposed to be a gauge of who's great and who's not.

 

[GreatGonzo]

"Best forward" at the 2010 Olympics wasn't my opinion, it was an award given out at the end of the tournament: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey_at_the_2010_Winter_Olympics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament

Ryan Miller won best goaltender...is he anymore HOF bound than someone who didn't? What about Brian Rafalski? 3 cups, silver medal, and best d man of 2010 Olympics. Does he get any consideration?

Speaking of arbitrary numbers.

Also, I'm too lazy to look, but I'm guessing Gretzky won probably every first team All star for a 10-15 year run. Does that mean no other centers in that era are HOF worthy?

You can't lump Gretzky with Jonathan Toews. Toews has yet to have a ppg season and arguably isn't even the best two way forward in the league. While Gretzky was dominant, other players were still making their own way and making an impact in the league

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Ryan Miller won best goaltender...is he anymore HOF bound than someone who didn't? What about Brian Rafalski? 3 cups, silver medal, and best d man of 2010 Olympics. Does he get any consideration?



You can't lump Gretzky with Jonathan Toews. Toews has yet to have a ppg season and arguably isn't even the best two way forward in the league. While Gretzky was dominant, other players were still making their own way and making an impact in the league

It certainly helps his case.

You missed the point. Few compare to Gretzky. I'm pointing out some of the flaws of using All Star teams as a criterion for HOF worthiness.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It certainly helps his case.

You missed the point. Few compare to Gretzky. I'm pointing out some of the flaws of using All Star teams as a criterion for HOF worthiness.

Sure it can somewhat help but it doesn't lock him or anyone else into a for sure spot in the hall. Sure all star votes aren't that important but Toews still isnt a ppg player or the most dominant two-way forward. This is why many consider him overrated when it comes to his rank as a forward and the publicity he gets. Yet he has very little individual achievements. 1 selke and an Olympic mvp do not scream HOF.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Sure it can somewhat help but it doesn't lock him or anyone else into a for sure spot in the hall. Sure all star votes aren't that important but Toews still isnt a ppg player or the most dominant two-way forward. This is why many consider him overrated when it comes to his rank as a forward and the publicity he gets. Yet he has very little individual achievements. 1 selke and an Olympic mvp do not scream HOF.

Why is it only the most dominant defensive forward? There's only room for 1.

I don't think he's in the hall yet. Not enough body of work. But some people act like .90 ppg is nothing and that's not the case.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

There is no way he gets in today; nor should he.

Having said that, he will almost surely get in one day in the far future. But based on what's he done so far? Not even close.

Yet, Glenn Anderson or Fuhr is in? Anderson isn't even a career ppg player despite the fact he played his entire career in a high scoring era.

There are plenty of players in the HOF that have zero personal awards, and zero cups. Obviously I don't need to list them all because those who post here know exactly who these players are.

If Toews career was cut short by injury, he absolutely would be a HOF'er. Now if he left to go play in the KHL or something I don't know.

If he didn't lead the Hawks to 2 cups it would certainly be a no but that point is moot since he did.

 

[jkrx]

Yet, Glenn Anderson or Fuhr is in? Anderson isn't even a career ppg player despite the fact he played his entire career in a high scoring era.

There are plenty of players in the HOF that have zero personal awards, and zero cups. Obviously I don't need to list them all because those who post here know exactly who these players are.

If Toews career was cut short by injury, he absolutely would be a HOF'er. Now if he left to go play in the KHL or something I don't know.

If he didn't lead the Hawks to 2 cups it would certainly be a no but that point is moot since he did.

Glenn Anderson and Fuhr shouldn't be in the hall either.