Toews HHOF

[FRUSTRATEDPENFAN*]

No player with only 500 points should ever be in the HHOF

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Please provide evidence that he shut down the opposing d and first line. So your saying he wasn't scoring because he was to busy playing defense? Come on now. He's there number 1 center and is looked at to score goals and set up plays, especially in the playoffs. We are going back to making excuses for his lack of production. The Blackhawks D alone is deep and talented enough to shut down any opposing teams first line. Not to mention Hossa being an elite two way player, who I am sure should get just as much credit for his defense as Toews.

I watched all 5 games of the series in their entirety, that's my evidence. Did you, or did you just peruse the boxscore and declare Toews' performance unsatisfactory?

He didn't score much because he didn't need to. He won his matchup against the other team's top two players by holding them to 0 points. Koivu, 0 points, -5. Suter, 0 points, -6. Toews, 2 points, +1. Decisive win for Toews against two great players that he spent most of his ice time playing against.

You keep name dropping Koivu and Suter like they were the biggest threats he had in the post season. Did that wild team even have a chance? I didn't give them one. Since when is shutting down Koivu a challenge. The guy isn't exactly a scoring threat. Same with Suter.

This series is brought up as a classic example of a player not needing to score points to play well and do his job. Toews keeps getting criticized for not scoring enough by people that seem to think his job is simply to go out and score some arbitrary amount of points.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I watched all 5 games of the series in their entirety, that's my evidence. Did you, or did you just peruse the boxscore and declare Toews' performance unsatisfactory?

He didn't score much because he didn't need to. He won his matchup against the other team's top two players by holding them to 0 points. Koivu, 0 points, -5. Suter, 0 points, -6. Toews, 2 points, +1. Decisive win for Toews against two great players that he spent most of his ice time playing against.



This series is brought up as a classic example of a player not needing to score points to play well and do his job. Toews keeps getting criticized for not scoring enough by people that seem to think his job is simply to go out and score some arbitrary amount of points.

Lol that's your evidence? A simply "well Im saying it so its the facts."

Since when is shutting down a guy who scored like 10 goals in the regular season an accomplishment? Same with Suter. Again, your giving Toews all the credit for shutting down these players and it's ridiculous. He had 2 assists in a very lop sided series, I would hardly call that contributing.

What's classic is this idea that it'd Toews isnt scoring points, then he must be just way to busy shutting down non offensive threats. It's a perfect overrating of Toews. there is an excuse for everything he does and doesn't do, and it can't be as simply as that he's on a stacked team on both ends and that is the soul reason he has his second cup.

Abitrary? It's the playoffs where every play and point counts more than anything. Toews went from a 29 point post season and conn smythe to the exact opposite. And yes, it is a pretty important part as a number one center to score points for your team to win games or is Toews just way to good for that silly stuff? Your acting like he is a 3rd line grinder who's main objective is not to really produce offense and not expected to. He's supposedly a top 5-10 center in the NHL a, yet he can keep that rank without putting up elite offensive numbers?

What you said basically sums up why Toews was not that much of a core part of their 2013 run. The fact that his team can score and shut down opponents while he can have an off day or series proves that he would not be as successful somewhere else, making the whole cup argument for the HOF ridiculous.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Lol that's your evidence? A simply "well Im saying it so its the facts."

Since when is shutting down a guy who scored like 10 goals in the regular season an accomplishment? Same with Suter. Again, your giving Toews all the credit for shutting down these players and it's ridiculous. He had 2 assists in a very lop sided series, I would hardly call that contributing.

What's classic is this idea that it'd Toews isnt scoring points, then he must be just way to busy shutting down non offensive threats. It's a perfect overrating of Toews. there is an excuse for everything he does and doesn't do, and it can't be as simply as that he's on a stacked team on both ends and that is the soul reason he has his second cup.

Abitrary? It's the playoffs where every play and point counts more than anything. Toews went from a 29 point post season and conn smythe to the exact opposite. And yes, it is a pretty important part as a number one center to score points for your team to win games or is Toews just way to good for that silly stuff? Your acting like he is a 3rd line grinder who's main objective is not to really produce offense and not expected to. He's supposedly a top 5-10 center in the NHL a, yet he can keep that rank without putting up elite offensive numbers?

What you said basically sums up why Toews was not that much of a core part of their 2013 run. The fact that his team can score and shut down opponents while he can have an off day or series proves that he would not be as successful somewhere else, making the whole cup argument for the HOF ridiculous.

So to sum up your position. Elite offense with average to below average defense is a HHOF (over a longer time frame than Toews has currently). But elite defense with very good offense is not. We'll agree to disagree.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Here's the thing I don't think people understand or take into account. How the players are used. I'll use Kane and Toews so not as to offend any other fan bases.

Here are Toews and Kane pts/60 since entering the league.

Toews
EV 2.36
PP 4.25

Kane
EV 2.31
PP 5.59

Toews has 506 pts in 560 games (.90). Kane has 557 pts in 576 (.97). Now Kane never plays PK. Meanwhile Toews is above 100 minutes a year a season. If you took 100 minutes of Kane every year and made them PK, how much would his points drop? 800 minutes at Evens at 2.31 is 30.8 pts he loses. Take 800 minutes from PP and make them PK and he drops 75 pts. Half and half is 52 (leaving him at 505 pts to Toews 506). Of course he'd get a few SH pts back as well, but you get the point. Of course you can do the opposite with Toews and take his PK minutes and make them Evens or PPs and his points go up.

Long story short, even if you don't buy that being defensive minded limits players points, I don't think you can argue with how they are deployed. I'm not saying Kane should play PK to make it "fair" for player to player comparisons. Of course Kane should play more on PP and not on PK. However, guys like Toews and many others who play a good amount of PK are going to have less opportunity for points. I think that is often discounted.

 

[bobholly39]

There is no chance whatsoever Jonathan Toews gets into the HHOF if he retires today. He simply does not deserve it.

Crosby and Ovechkin are shoe-ins at their age. Malkin - very possibly. They might be the only 2 (or 3).

Jonathan Toews will 100% get into the HHOF and deservedly so - but only if he plays well into his 30s. If he retired today? Nope.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Lol that's your evidence? A simply "well Im saying it so its the facts."

If you know of a source that provides minutes played against particular opponents, be my guest and prove me wrong about Toews playing most of the series against Koivu and Suter.

Since when is shutting down a guy who scored like 10 goals in the regular season an accomplishment? Same with Suter. Again, your giving Toews all the credit for shutting down these players and it's ridiculous. He had 2 assists in a very lop sided series, I would hardly call that contributing.

So you don't think the other team's #1 C and arguably the best defenseman in the entire NHL being rendered useless for an entire series is a contribution. Gotcha. I think Joel Quenneville would have a rather different opinion.

Abitrary? It's the playoffs where every play and point counts more than anything. Toews went from a 29 point post season and conn smythe to the exact opposite. And yes, it is a pretty important part as a number one center to score points for your team to win games or is Toews just way to good for that silly stuff? Your acting like he is a 3rd line grinder who's main objective is not to really produce offense and not expected to. He's supposedly a top 5-10 center in the NHL a, yet he can keep that rank without putting up elite offensive numbers?

Since when are Toews' offensive numbers not elite? 81 points in 94 playoff games, mainly against elite defensive Western Conference opponents. All while playing great defensively.

Sounds like you would rather have a floater who puts up some extra points while bleeding a whole bunch more goals against in order to fit your idea of what a #1 C is. An idea not shared by most successful coaches.

What you said basically sums up why Toews was not that much of a core part of their 2013 run. The fact that his team can score and shut down opponents while he can have an off day or series proves that he would not be as successful somewhere else, making the whole cup argument for the HOF ridiculous.

I don't think anybody has suggested that he would be as successful if he'd spent his career on the Oilers or the Leafs. In the real world, he does play on a great team, has contributed to that team being great, and the HOF voters will evaluate this scenario, not some fantasy scenario where he was on terrible teams. There are all sorts of players in the HOF who are there based on their contributions to Cup winners who would clearly not have been elected if they played on bottom feeders. You may disagree with the HOF's criteria, but team success and winning Cups is VERY important to them.