Toews HHOF

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Anyone know where to find a list of the post-expansion HHOFers with the fewest career points? H-R doesn't have HHOF as a tab you can check in their power searches.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Anyone know where to find a list of the post-expansion HHOFers with the fewest career points? H-R doesn't have HHOF as a tab you can check in their power searches.

Yeah they do. It should be noted that a lot of the guys towards the bottom are in the HOF as a builder not a player.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...at=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points_per_game

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Hall of team accomplishments. Seriously, one selke and under a ppg is hall worthy? He doesn't even have the best defensive or two way forward of his era label to hang his hat on.

Tell that to Henri Richard and some of the other Canadians.

He still has more cups and personal awards than these HOF players -

- Michelle Goulet
- Dino Ciccarelli
- Cam Neely
- Pat LaFontaine
- Bernie Federko
- Mike Gartner
- Dale Hawerchuk
- Denis Savard
- Peter Stastny
- Borje Salming

The list could go on

Those guys have no cups and no personal awards... Yet, Toews isn't in already given his resume?

I suppose if a player wants to get into the HOF (using some peoples logic) the player should focus on personal awards instead of trying to win a cup or gold metal.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Anyone know where to find a list of the post-expansion HHOFers with the fewest career points? H-R doesn't have HHOF as a tab you can check in their power searches.

Excluding goalies, Viacheslav Fetisov is the least scoring (playing a full career post-expansion) with 228 but obviously he played the majority of his career in the USSR.

It seems b1e9a8r5s got the list.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Glenn Anderson and Fuhr shouldn't be in the hall either.

Well they are and I just posted in the post above this 10 players that have zero cups and zero personal awards.

So no one can really say he doesn't have the 'resume' when he already has a better resume than at least 20 HOF players (I stopped at 10).

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Well they are and I just posted in the post above this 10 players that have zero cups and zero personal awards.

So no one can really say he doesn't have the 'resume' when he already has a better resume than at least 20 HOF players (I stopped at 10).

You missed Sundin.

 

[Dissonance]

But in general I think Keith is seen as a better d-man than Toews is a forward, and has the #'s/accomplishments to prove it.

This is true, but Keith is also a first-ballot Hall of Famer who would get in if he retired tomorrow. Not the worst thing to be second fiddle to a guy like that.

Agree that Toews is on pace for a HOF career by the time he retires.

 

[jkrx]

You missed Sundin.

Sundin has the better international resume and captained the less than stellar leafs for over a decade. If anyone suggests that Toews would've done better on that team, they are crazy.

 

[jkrx]

Well they are and I just posted in the post above this 10 players that have zero cups and zero personal awards.

So no one can really say he doesn't have the 'resume' when he already has a better resume than at least 20 HOF players (I stopped at 10).

Can we name them so I can comment on these individuals. Can't remember all the inductees but I know there are some questionable ones.

The ones I can think of is Bure, Dino and Mark Howe. Bure was the rocket, a profile who scored at will. Dino got in on the category "Best garbage man of all-time". Mark Howe is most likely the best defenseman to not win a Norris or a cup.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yeah they do. It should be noted that a lot of the guys towards the bottom are in the HOF as a builder not a player.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...at=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points_per_game

Thanks. Don't know how I missed that.

So the lowest career point totals of post-expansion HHOF forwards:

Bob Gainey 501
Igor Larionov 644 (plus a ton in the USSR)
Cam Neely 694
Clark Gillies 697
Yvan Cournoyer 773
Pavel Bure 779

Jonathan Toews currently has 500 career points, and while there is certainly a lot of mythology built up around his intangibles, I don't think it is nearly at the same level as the mythology about Gainey's defensive play.

I doubt Toews gets in if he retires today. If he follows anything close to a normal career curve, he should.

 

[Moops]

Today?? Oy. His resume is way behind Eric Lindros by any criteria, except for team accomplishments. There's no way that he's close enough on an individual level to actually leapfrog Lindros based on team accolades. At best, he gets stuck in a peak vs. longevity debate. His peak would have to be borderline mythological for him to actually get in. He's well ahead of an HOF trajectory though. 1,000 points and a perennial Selke contender would give him a strong case, and I see him bettering that kind of resume.

 

[Voight]

Today?? Oy. His resume is way behind Eric Lindros by any criteria, except for team accomplishments. There's no way that he's close enough on an individual level to actually leapfrog Lindros based on team accolades. At best, he gets stuck in a peak vs. longevity debate. His peak would have to be borderline mythological for him to actually get in. He's well ahead of an HOF trajectory though. 1,000 points and a perennial Selke contender would give him a strong case, and I see him bettering that kind of resume.

Lindros' childish behaviour during and before his career derail his HHOF consideration.

 

[Voight]

He has zero first team all stars. If you can't even be named the best at your position or come top 10 in points as a forward you don't belong in the hall.

You ever looked at the HHOF list? You're criteria would take out a lot of the guys in there.

Btw his career isn't over so he can still have a top 10 point year/first team all star.

Thanks. Don't know how I missed that.

So the lowest career point totals of post-expansion HHOF forwards:

Bob Gainey 501
Igor Larionov 644 (plus a ton in the USSR)
Cam Neely 694
Clark Gillies 697
Yvan Cournoyer 773
Pavel Bure 779

I don't think it is nearly at the same level as the mythology about Gainey's defensive play.

Plus some of those players are "special cases" along with Gainey. Bure is regarded as an all-time best goal scorer (one of them, not #1), Neely one of the all time best/prototypical power forward.

Unrelated but I always thought Cournoyer had more points than that. Seems he got in because he was a Hab and was on many cup winners.

 

[Big Phil]

Glenn Anderson and Fuhr shouldn't be in the hall either.

A little off topic, but why? Two guys very, very important to a dynasty. One wins a Vezina and has a good voting record to go with it. The other is notoriously known for clutch scoring like few ever.

Tell that to Henri Richard and some of the other Canadians.

He still has more cups and personal awards than these HOF players -

- Michelle Goulet
- Dino Ciccarelli
- Cam Neely
- Pat LaFontaine
- Bernie Federko
- Mike Gartner
- Dale Hawerchuk
- Denis Savard
- Peter Stastny
- Borje Salming

The list could go on

Those guys have no cups and no personal awards... Yet, Toews isn't in already given his resume?

I suppose if a player wants to get into the HOF (using some peoples logic) the player should focus on personal awards instead of trying to win a cup or gold metal.

To be fair, Denis Savard did win the Cup in 1993. Past his prime, but still.

I think there is one thing you have to look at when comparing these guys to Toews. How many of them are in the HHOF after 8 years or 26 years old, whichever comes first?

I would say only Hawerchuk is in the HHOF at 26 years old out of that list because that would have put him around 1989 and he may have had enough gaudy stats to get in. Other than that? No one on that list that is Toews' age is in the HHOF had they retired at 26.

There might be a couple more who are in after year 8 (which is what Toews is on now). Hawerchuk slides in after 8 NHL seasons. Stastny and Savard might too. Salming would be hard to ignore. But no one else. Lafontaine doesn't have his 1992 or 1993 seasons in at that time, so he definitely isn't in. Would Goulet get in after 1987? Doubt it.

So there is a bit of context there. 8 years is pretty short, even if it has been petty decorated with a winning intangible such as what Toews has done.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Sundin has the better international resume and captained the less than stellar leafs for over a decade. If anyone suggests that Toews would've done better on that team, they are crazy.

Well this begs the question. What makes someone a HOFer? Is it trophies, stats, team success, international success?

I brought up Sundin because I could see Toews having a similar career, but with team success.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

A little off topic, but why? Two guys very, very important to a dynasty. One wins a Vezina and has a good voting record to go with it. The other is notoriously known for clutch scoring like few ever.



To be fair, Denis Savard did win the Cup in 1993. Past his prime, but still.

I think there is one thing you have to look at when comparing these guys to Toews. How many of them are in the HHOF after 8 years or 26 years old, whichever comes first?

I would say only Hawerchuk is in the HHOF at 26 years old out of that list because that would have put him around 1989 and he may have had enough gaudy stats to get in. Other than that? No one on that list that is Toews' age is in the HHOF had they retired at 26.

There might be a couple more who are in after year 8 (which is what Toews is on now). Hawerchuk slides in after 8 NHL seasons. Stastny and Savard might too. Salming would be hard to ignore. But no one else. Lafontaine doesn't have his 1992 or 1993 seasons in at that time, so he definitely isn't in. Would Goulet get in after 1987? Doubt it.

So there is a bit of context there. 8 years is pretty short, even if it has been petty decorated with a winning intangible such as what Toews has done.

I think everything you say is fair and I'm about as big of a Toews fan as it comes. But 8 years just isn't a big enough time frame unless you are putting up numbers that are top 5 every year (Bure, Forsberg). He's not in now, I think most objective people see a reasonable path for him to the hall.

 

[The Panther]

I think everything you say is fair and I'm about as big of a Toews fan as it comes. But 8 years just isn't a big enough time frame unless you are putting up numbers that are top 5 every year (Bure, Forsberg). He's not in now, I think most objective people see a reasonable path for him to the hall.

Exactly.

He will make it in someday. He would not make it in now, and shouldn't.

 

[Skobel24]

I think he would get consideration. Give him a few more seasons, and he'll be a lock.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

it's funny: he has almost exactly half of dave keon's resume. so maybe the question is: could dave keon have made the HHOF if you cut his career in half?

 

[Moops]

Lindros' childish behaviour during and before his career derail his HHOF consideration.

True, but that's a reflection of the opinion that he's sort of a marginal candidate to begin with. HHOF is always going to be tricky for players with especially poor longevity.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

A little off topic, but why? Two guys very, very important to a dynasty. One wins a Vezina and has a good voting record to go with it. The other is notoriously known for clutch scoring like few ever.



To be fair, Denis Savard did win the Cup in 1993. Past his prime, but still.

I think there is one thing you have to look at when comparing these guys to Toews. How many of them are in the HHOF after 8 years or 26 years old, whichever comes first?

I would say only Hawerchuk is in the HHOF at 26 years old out of that list because that would have put him around 1989 and he may have had enough gaudy stats to get in. Other than that? No one on that list that is Toews' age is in the HHOF had they retired at 26.

There might be a couple more who are in after year 8 (which is what Toews is on now). Hawerchuk slides in after 8 NHL seasons. Stastny and Savard might too. Salming would be hard to ignore. But no one else. Lafontaine doesn't have his 1992 or 1993 seasons in at that time, so he definitely isn't in. Would Goulet get in after 1987? Doubt it.

So there is a bit of context there. 8 years is pretty short, even if it has been petty decorated with a winning intangible such as what Toews has done.

I agree with all your points but if Toews career was cut short by tragedy (injury or god forbid death) then he would certainly be inducted. Charlie Gardiner is a perfect example.

I really cant think of a star player that just retired prematurely that isn't in the HOF.. Mike Bossy, Bobby Orr and Cam Neely maybe.

Obviously Toews isn't just going to retire if he's healthy, so basically all he needs to do is continue to play his game and without question 2-3 years from now there would be no debate about him being a shoe-in especially if he wins another cup and especially another Conn Smythe - that would really cement his HOF status.

At the same time tho I didn't include players that have won cups but no personal awards that are in the HOF in my list. Players from dynasty teams that are borderline HOFer's outside of their cups. Players like Glenn Anderson, Grant Fuhr (1 vezina), Clark Gillies, Henri Richard, Guy Lapointe, Billy Smith, Steve Shutt, Darryl Sittler (he never won anything) etc....

Either way Toews will get their...

 

[Hawksfan2828]

it's funny: he has almost exactly half of dave keon's resume. so maybe the question is: could dave keon have made the HHOF if you cut his career in half?

Certainly similar career paths. Keon won all of his cups and personal awards by 26.

I don't know in what regard he was held in 1966, I know Hull and Howe were obviously the 2 major stars. The numbers are definitely similar.

Keon got in on his first ballot so obviously there was no doubt amongst the powers.

 

[iamjs]

"Best forward" at the 2010 Olympics wasn't my opinion, it was an award given out at the end of the tournament: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey_at_the_2010_Winter_Olympics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament

It is, but I don't see it as being an award that makes or breaks a candidate's HHOF resume.

Will he eventually? Probably
Would he get in right now? He shouldn't.

 

[Voight]

True, but that's a reflection of the opinion that he's sort of a marginal candidate to begin with. HHOF is always going to be tricky for players with especially poor longevity.

I don't think he's that strong of a candidate. 1 Hart, 1 All-NHL 1st team, Pearson, 1 all-NHL second team. All that came within two seasons.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Certainly similar career paths. Keon won all of his cups and personal awards by 26.

I don't know in what regard he was held in 1966, I know Hull and Howe were obviously the 2 major stars. The numbers are definitely similar.

Keon got in on his first ballot so obviously there was no doubt amongst the powers.

It raises the interesting point of whether or not guys need to stick around to just pad stats to make it into the HOF. Keon was inducted for what he did in the first half of his career. And he's far from the only one in that category. It's kind of strange to think somebody needs to stick around for a while as a lesser player in order to be rewarded for the earlier years spent as a true HOF player.