TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
.yup. Hockey reference quite obviously copied the awards data from hfboards, but quite clearly made some transcription errors along the way
Toews HHOF
- Thread starter Beau Knows
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b1e9a8r5s
Registered User
Toews is currently 95th in +/- all time. I know that's a flawed stat but I think that's pretty telling. 32 of the guys ahead of him are in the HHOF and there are several others that will be (Jagr, Lidstrom, Datzyuk, Pronger, etc).
I'm not saying that means he should be in, but I find that pretty impressive.
I'm not saying that means he should be in, but I find that pretty impressive.
Doctor No
Registered User
If it's flawed (which it is), how can it also be telling?
Rather, the fact that about one-third of the people ahead of Toews on the list are in the HHOF isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of Toews or of the stat.
b1e9a8r5s
Registered User
It doesn't always tell the whole story but I don't think it makes it meaningless. It's like RBIs in baseball.
edit: additional thought. Is there anywhere to get advance stats over the course of multiple seasons. I'd be curious to see Toews corsi Rel compared to others sense he's been in the league. Maybe that would be an indicator you respect more?
Beliveau
It's clobberin time!🥊
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/g/gainebo01.html
He has a great resume so far, but 500 points for a forward? You better have Bob Gainey's resume to get my vote for a 500 point forward and I've been a Hawk's fan since Hull & Mikita.
I love how you try to limit his resume by claiming he "really" only has one Selke.... He has a Conn Smythe as well as 2 cups and 2 golds.
The 2 cups and the Conn Smythe get him in.... Lets not pretend Toews was just some cog on the 2 cup teams. Ask yourself do the Hawks win the cup without Toews? I doubt it.
Obviously the HOF committee absolutely cares about cups and international achievements. If that wasn't the case then guys who were cogs on dynasties that never came close to winning a personal award wouldn't be in the HOF.
Toews is already in and if he wins another cup that notion cant be questioned anymore.
Here is a question - how many players with 2 cups, a Conn Smythe and at least 1 gold metal (or international championship) are not in the HOF?
Toews' two-way play is as good as anyone. He doesn't make mistakes. I never see him give the puck up, nor do I see him in a bad defensive position - lets also not forget Toews always plays against the other teams first line.
Toews is as flawless as one can get.
He makes the best out of every opportunity.
MXD
Original #4
- Oct 27, 2005
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Reggie Leach, Claude Lemieux.
Edit : Forget the Leach part. Only one cup.
Many players with the Retro Smythe Nomination would make it too if it weren't from the fact they were not allowed to play international games (but would obviously have been good enough to make the Canadian squad).
No time to peruse the list, but I can say that Marcel Bonin fits the bill.
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GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
toews is definitely not already in. You don't get into the hall automatically if you have a smythe and 2 cups, especially when he hasn't even had a ppg season. In this NHL that is kind of important
Sens Rule
Registered User
- Sep 22, 2005
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St. Louis and Iginla are mortal locks to go in first ballot. Hossa is a lock. Chara is another mortal lock.
Toews would not get in if he retired today because he just lost interest or something. If he died in a plane crash or something he probably does get in based on his resume so far. Cups matter. He is probably THE key member and Captain of an incredibly successful team.
He will become a HHOFer (if no tragedy strikes him) as he adds to his resume in coming years. If he really fell off right away off a cliff and his meme becomes the $10 million 3rd liner and he goes Brad Richards or Gomez like really soon... He could play his way out of the HHOF but he needs a steep cliff and for it to happen soon to play his way out of the Hall at this point.
Sens Rule
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- Sep 22, 2005
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Finally helping the Bruins to own the Habs in the playoffs after generations of Habs owning the Bruins. Seriously it was that nig of deal.
Neely was totally a superstar. Posters in department stores for sale. Guys wore Neely T-Shirts when I was in middle school.
You can look at stats and whatever.... Neely was a true Superstar in that era. In the same stratosphere of fame and popularity of Hull, Yzerman, Roy and so on. He was loved and worshipped by fans from like 87-93 or whatever.
The '95 Devils don't win the cup without Lemieux. Neither do the '86 Canadiens.
Toews' "clutch" reputation is laughable at best.
Stanley Cup finals, 2010: 6 gp, 0 g, 3 a, -5. You can argue all you want, but many people, including me, believe Kane was the MVP in 2010. -5 is downright terrible considering CHI won.
2013 Playoffs: 3 goals. That's it.
I won't argue about their regular season play, but if I'm a GM in the NHL, I take a youngish Claude Lemieux before Toews when my team starts the playoffs.
K Fleur
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Off the top of my head these guys are either not in, or not likely to be inducted: Butch Goring, Justin Williams, Mike Vernon, Bill Ranford, Claude Lemieux.
Hawksfan2828 said:
In case you were wondering this^^ is why some people think Toews is overrated.
b1e9a8r5s
Registered User
I've got a few problems with this.
If Toews doesn't get the 2010 Conn Smythe it's Keith. I don't think that's a question, and lets not forget Conn Smythe is for the playoffs not just the finals. Kane was a -4 in the same finals.
2013 is the exact opposite of what you are complaining about him for 2010. In the finals vs Bos 6 games 2 Goals 3 Assists +5. And everyone talks about him only having 3 goals. He still finished 5 points behind Kane for the team lead in the playoffs. As for clutch, the Hawks go down 2 games to 1 against the Bruins. Games 4-6 2 goals 3 assists +5.
I feel like you are cherry picking here. Is it finals play that should matter for the Conn or the whole playoffs? Because you are essentially arguing both sides of it in different years.
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K Fleur
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Good, because it isn't right.
Richards was the main reason for that teams postseason success (followed closely by St.Louis). At that time I thought of Lecavalier as nothing more than an underachieving 1st overall pick who'd been stripped of his team captaincy. Hardly "Vinny's team". Richards was far more important to his teams success cup win Patrick Sharp was to either of his. Richards had 7 game winning goals in that run.
struckbyaparkedcar
Guilty of Being Right
You do if you also have a Selke, two golds as the second most important forward on team Canada, a "best forward of the tournament," brought an O6 franchise back from the proverbial dead, and have been one of the three best players on said team since your rookie season.
Comparing Toews to Lemieux or Goring is awful. He's got their intangibles in the body of an elite two way player and first line center. He's Yzerman's career-back-9 if anything.
Those players aren't in the same ballpark as Toews.
How can Toews be overrated when he makes no mistakes?
Fine, he doesn't score enough - so what?
Anyone who judges him on his point production alone doesn't know the first thing about him.... He's a smart player that makes you say "wow."
Also, he's the least selfish player in the league. He cares more about winning cups than he does personal awards.
More times than not players on cup champions don't win personal awards except for the Conn Smythe of course - at least not the Hart, Rocket or Byng.
MXD
Original #4
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The answer lies in the very question. More accurately, in the second part of the question.
(On another topic, Toews is probably a HHOF'er as of today. Mainly because of the "Fame" component, and mainly because there's quite a difference between him and Gomez/Richards, in that he's been more crucial (than Gomez) for his franchise and for longer (than Brad Richards was to his franchise). This said, for career value, Toews vs. Lemieux is VERY CLOSE at this point... and Toews has something like 700 games to close the gap and make gap wider. Montreal doesn't win the cup in 86 without Lemieux, and Devils don't win either in '95. Lemieux led playoffs in goalscoring twice, including once where he had NO power play goals at all. I don't bother watching that, but's that's gotta be something that didn't happen very often)
K Fleur
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Cool story. You got anything measurable to back up this opinion? Or is this just more of the standard unquantifiable, intagibles, "you just don't get it" argument with Toews?
Hawksfan2828 said:
Scoring is a little more important than to just be brushed off with a "so what".
Hawksfan2828 said:
Well you managed to overrate him in this sentence so...
Sens Rule
Registered User
- Sep 22, 2005
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I think Patrice Bergeron and Kopitar will eventually be in the HHOF for the same reason Toews will be. Ignoring the if they retired today theme. Likely they add to their totals over the rest of their career and are remembered as great two way key forwards on Cup winners... With repeated post season success. With Bergeron and Toews remembered as key cogs for Team Canada and Kopitar as the best player for his country ever.
Same reason Datsyuk and Zetterberg are locks.
If the HHOF cares about anything it is winning Cups and being on winning teams with memorable playoff runs.
Same reason Datsyuk and Zetterberg are locks.
If the HHOF cares about anything it is winning Cups and being on winning teams with memorable playoff runs.
Voight
#winning
He's only 28 and has at least 10 years of good hockey left so he'll surely pass 500 points and end up closer to 1000, if not more. Plus winning and captaining two cups in this day and age is pretty good, there aren't anymore dynasty teams like the ones Gainey was on early in his career.
*FYI I'm a huge Gainey fan, so don't take this like I'm dissing him
Thats not saying much
MXD
Original #4
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He's only 28 and has at least 10 years of good hockey left so he'll surely pass 500 points and end up closer to 1000, if not more. Plus winning and captaining two cups in this day and age is pretty good, there aren't anymore dynasty teams like the ones Gainey was on early in his career.
*FYI I'm a huge Gainey fan, so don't take this like I'm dissing him
Thats not saying much
The 10 years of good hockey seems awfully optimistic to me.
Datsyuk and Zetterberg were far more dominant than Toews in their primes. Kopitar is a better version of Toews, but without the good ol' canadian boy factor.
Admit it already, if his last name was Johansson, people wouldn't look at him the same way they do now.
Winning the Gold medal with Team Canada at the Olympics isn't much of a personal achievement btw. Year in year out, regardless of the final results of the tournament, they are consistently the most stacked team.
GreatGonzo
Surrounded by Snowflakes
None of the above is a clear cut nomination into the hall..sorry to break it to you. You can cherry pick his "accomplishments" all you want, but at the end of the day, he has more TEAM accomplishments than anything else.
Lemieux wD far more clutch than Toews in 2 of his cup runs. Besides you CAN compare them because they have both a conn smythe and multiple cups. Player to player? Sure it's not very close but everyone including you in this thread are just ranting and raving about the amount of cups and gold medals he has at such a young age...on top of that, overrating his skill set to an almost flawless and dominating hockey player. Toews isn't even top 5 in the league IMO.
Toews and Yzerman do not and will not have similar careers. Totally different types of players from different situations.
