Toews HHOF

[Voight]

Datsyuk and Zetterberg were far more dominant than Toews in their primes. Kopitar is a better version of Toews, but without the good ol' canadian boy factor.

Admit it already, if his last name was Johansson, people wouldn't look at him the same way they do now.

Winning the Gold medal with Team Canada at the Olympics isn't much of a personal achievement btw. Year in year out, regardless of the final results of the tournament, they are consistently the most stacked team.

Its different when your named the best forward and not just a tag along like Brendan Morrow or Chris Kunitz.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The '95 Devils don't win the cup without Lemieux. Neither do the '86 Canadiens.

Toews' "clutch" reputation is laughable at best.

Stanley Cup finals, 2010: 6 gp, 0 g, 3 a, -5. You can argue all you want, but many people, including me, believe Kane was the MVP in 2010. -5 is downright terrible considering CHI won.

2013 Playoffs: 3 goals. That's it.

I won't argue about their regular season play, but if I'm a GM in the NHL, I take a youngish Claude Lemieux before Toews when my team starts the playoffs.

I don't think you'd be a GM for very long. Would you also take Esa Tikkanen over Sid Crosby at the start of the playoffs? One of them certainly has a more clutch reputation than the other...

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

I love how you try to limit his resume by claiming he "really" only has one Selke.... He has a Conn Smythe as well as 2 cups and 2 golds.

The 2 cups and the Conn Smythe get him in.... Lets not pretend Toews was just some cog on the 2 cup teams. Ask yourself do the Hawks win the cup without Toews? I doubt it.

Obviously the HOF committee absolutely cares about cups and international achievements. If that wasn't the case then guys who were cogs on dynasties that never came close to winning a personal award wouldn't be in the HOF.

Toews is already in and if he wins another cup that notion cant be questioned anymore.

Here is a question - how many players with 2 cups, a Conn Smythe and at least 1 gold metal (or international championship) are not in the HOF?

yes they dont win without toews ( what team wins when losing one of there top player ? ) but do they still win if you sub in toews for other top centers...imo yes they do thus cups are pretty pointless to bring up when talking about an indivdual ( unless he did it all by himself, which as we all know isnt really possible)

 

[FissionFire]

I've never viewed Toews as a HHOF player. He's a good player on a stacked team but his individual accomplishments are fairly pedestrian and unimpressive for a hall of fame resume.

 

[sr edler]

Toews is a very skilled player offensively. 503 points in 560 games in this era is nothing to sneeze at, especially not when you're a team first two way kind of player.

 

[Sentinel]

Some day people will realize that there is more to life than offensive stats. Toews is in the moment he hangs them up.

Zetterberg is a lock for the HHOF, and he has even fewer awards than Toews.

Also PPG is fairly meaningless when comparing across eras.

I would also induct Lemiuex, but until Makarov is in, the HHOF remains a joke anyway.

 

[Voight]

Some day people will realize that there is more to life than offensive stats. Toews is in the moment he hangs them up.

Zetterberg is a lock for the HHOF, and he has even fewer awards than Toews.

Also PPG is fairly meaningless when comparing across eras.

I would also induct Lemiuex, but until Makarov is in, the HHOF remains a joke anyway.

I would too, considering Clark Gilles has less points and comes nowhere near Lemieux in playoff production/mystique.

 

[Beau Knows]

Zetterberg is a lock for the HHOF, and he has even fewer awards than Toews.

Zetterberg also has almost 900 points though. He has more playoff points than Toews too. The question about Toews getting in isn't really about whether or not he is good enough, but if he has done enough yet at such a young age to already be in, even if he never played again. The HHOF certainly looks at career totals when voting and that is Toews' weakness right now.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Toews simply hasn't played in the league long enough at his level of production to make the Hall if he retires today. If he produced like Malkin has, then yes he would make the Hall if he retired today. In Toews' case, he is on the path to the Hall, but will have a stronger case if he continues his level of production for another 5 years.

 

[DanZ]

Some day people will realize that there is more to life than offensive stats. Toews is in the moment he hangs them up.

Zetterberg is a lock for the HHOF, and he has even fewer awards than Toews.

Also PPG is fairly meaningless when comparing across eras.

I would also induct Lemiuex, but until Makarov is in, the HHOF remains a joke anyway.

Awards aren't a good measure of a player's ability. Zetterberg was objectively better in his prime and is still right there with Toews at almost 35 years old.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

I think it's funny, a lot of people are trying to find reasons why Toews won't make the HOF instead of looking at the reasons why he will.

Presently the pros outweigh the cons.

IMO, Toews could win a couple more Selke's, another Conn Smythe, a couple more cups and a couple more gold metals at the Olympics and some would still claim he's not HOF material.

Their argument would be: "Well, he never won a Hart, Byng, Rocket or was a First team all star so no."

It's clear some hockey fans just don't like him.

 

[Voight]

Zetterberg also has almost 900 points though. He has more playoff points than Toews too. The question about Toews getting in isn't really about whether or not he is good enough, but if he has done enough yet at such a young age to already be in, even if he never played again. The HHOF certainly looks at career totals when voting and that is Toews' weakness right now.

Its likely Toews will reach at least 900 points by the time he retires, possibly 1000.

I think it's funny, a lot of people are trying to find reasons why Toews won't make the HOF instead of looking at the reasons why he will.

Presently the pros outweigh the cons.

IMO, Toews could win a couple more Selke's, another Conn Smythe, a couple more cups and a couple more gold metals at the Olympics and some would still claim he's not HOF material.

Their argument would be: "Well, he never won a Hart, Byng, Rocket or was a First team all star so no."

It's clear some hockey fans just don't like him.

Hate us, cause they aint us.

 

[Beau Knows]

Its likely Toews will reach at least 900 points by the time he retires, possibly 1000.

Yup, but the thread is about if he retired now, at only ~500 points.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Yup, but the thread is about if he retired now, at only ~500 points.

If he had a career ending injury or god forbid died he would certainly get in...

Now if he just retired for no reason or joined the KHL he wouldn't get in.

Reasons for retirement matter.

A little OT but same idea -

The only player that I know of that just walked away from hockey that had a HOF career was Ken Dryden, and he wasn't even the best goalie of the 70's, yet he is in and he only played what? 9 seasons? Of course Dryden was no slouch, however his numbers were infinitely better just because he played on the Habs, than otherwise would have been if he played somewhere else. Dryden isn't a HOFer if he stays with Boston, Vachon is a HOF'er if he stays with the Habs - funny how that works.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I think most people are in agreement that he's well on his way to getting there but 8 years isn't enough time to put him in today. I'm a Hawks fan and I think that's fair.

Also, I agree with ppg thing and comparing eras. The fact is right now there are 8 guys with a ppg this year. In 2000-01 there were 31 guys who had a ppg. PPG is an arbitrary end point but somehow it's more significant because it's a nice round number. The same thing with top 10 in points. Toew's has never finished top 10 in points. Well in 2010-2011 he finished 11th. So 1 more point that year would have changed a lot of you guys perception of Toews? That doesn't make sense to me. Toews is a very good offensive player and an elite defensive one. Girroux for example has finished in the top 10 in points twice and could do it a 3rd time this year. But the reality is Girroux is a .91 ppg and Toews is .90 ppg. Girroux is an elite offensive talent in most peoples minds, and I agree he is. But it's like people punish Toews for being steady and consistent.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

I think most people are in agreement that he's well on his way to getting there but 8 years isn't enough time to put him in today. I'm a Hawks fan and I think that's fair.

Also, I agree with ppg thing and comparing eras. The fact is right now there are 8 guys with a ppg this year. In 2000-01 there were 31 guys who had a ppg. PPG is an arbitrary end point but somehow it's more significant because it's a nice round number. The same thing with top 10 in points. Toew's has never finished top 10 in points. Well in 2010-2011 he finished 11th. So 1 more point that year would have changed a lot of you guys perception of Toews? That doesn't make sense to me. Toews is a very good offensive player and an elite defensive one. Girroux for example has finished in the top 10 in points twice and could do it a 3rd time this year. But the reality is Girroux is a .91 ppg and Toews is .90 ppg. Girroux is an elite offensive talent in most peoples minds, and I agree he is. But it's like people punish Toews for being steady and consistent.

Toews is more than capable of being a ppg player if he focused more on offense, but that isn't his style - he is a two-way player that is always used to shut down the opponents top line. When a player is generally used as a shutdown player and pretty much gets most of his opportunities on the power play or off of mistakes made by the other team the offensive numbers just wont be there to win any offensive awards or to finish top ten amongst the top offensive players.

Obviously with Kane out Toews really stepped it up, because he had to and since then he's a ppg, so that really shows you what he is capable of when he has to makeup a void - which adds to the type of player he is.

I don't know how anyone could call the guy overrated either. Why because he's not a fantasy hockey dynamo?

 

[BayStreetBully]

If he had a career ending injury or god forbid died he would certainly get in...

Now if he just retired for no reason or joined the KHL he wouldn't get in.

Reasons for retirement matter.

A little OT but same idea -

The only player that I know of that just walked away from hockey that had a HOF career was Ken Dryden, and he wasn't even the best goalie of the 70's, yet he is in and he only played what? 9 seasons? Of course Dryden was no slouch, however his numbers were infinitely better just because he played on the Habs, than otherwise would have been if he played somewhere else. Dryden isn't a HOFer if he stays with Boston, Vachon is a HOF'er if he stays with the Habs - funny how that works.

Ken Dryden won 6 Stanley Cups.

Even if Toews had a career-ending injury today, I don't know that he gets in. Players that get into the Hall with a shortened career were usually the best at what they did during the time they were able to play. Neely unofficially scoring 50 in 50 and reinventing the power forward position. Bure winning a couple Rocket Richards. Forsberg goes without saying. And Lindros should be in, for the same reason. All of Neely/Bure/Forsberg/Lindros have about 700-900 points, and even their careers were considered shortened by Hall standards.

Toews has 500 points and his season-by-season numbers aren't spectacular. Nor is he head and shoulders above other defensive forwards the way Gainey and Carbonneau were. He captained the Hawks to 2 cups, but so did Dustin Brown. He won a Conn Smythe, but so did Claude Lemieux. Toews will be given credit for having done all of the above (captain of 2 cups + Conn Smythe + Selke), but he needs to put in more time. Even a career-ending injury doesn't guarantee he automatically makes the Hall. And that's not a knock on him. The only players under 30 I can see being almost-surefire for the Hall if they retire today is Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin.

 

[Voight]

A little OT but same idea -

The only player that I know of that just walked away from hockey that had a HOF career was Ken Dryden, and he wasn't even the best goalie of the 70's, yet he is in and he only played what? 9 seasons? Of course Dryden was no slouch, however his numbers were infinitely better just because he played on the Habs, than otherwise would have been if he played somewhere else. Dryden isn't a HOFer if he stays with Boston, Vachon is a HOF'er if he stays with the Habs - funny how that works.

Who do you think was the best goalie in the 70s then? I'm a Blackhawks fan but I have to say Dryden was a bit better than Tony O, not by much but he was better. Parent is in the discussion too but is easily third behind those two.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Who do you think was the best goalie in the 70s then? I'm a Blackhawks fan but I have to say Dryden was a bit better than Tony O, not by much but he was better. Parent is in the discussion too but is easily third behind those two.

Dryden played on the Habs - a flipping dynasty. Bunny Larocque's numbers were ridiculous (and just as good if not better) as well, yet when he left the Habs they were terrible.

Any good (not great) goalie could have won cups on that team, they had the best defense of all time.

Parent, Esposito and Cheevers were arguably better. Maybe even Rogie Vachon.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Ken Dryden won 6 Stanley Cups.

Even if Toews had a career-ending injury today, I don't know that he gets in. Players that get into the Hall with a shortened career were usually the best at what they did during the time they were able to play. Neely unofficially scoring 50 in 50 and reinventing the power forward position. Bure winning a couple Rocket Richards. Forsberg goes without saying. And Lindros should be in, for the same reason. All of Neely/Bure/Forsberg/Lindros have about 700-900 points, and even their careers were considered shortened by Hall standards.

Toews has 500 points and his season-by-season numbers aren't spectacular. Nor is he head and shoulders above other defensive forwards the way Gainey and Carbonneau were. He captained the Hawks to 2 cups, but so did Dustin Brown. He won a Conn Smythe, but so did Claude Lemieux. Toews will be given credit for having done all of the above (captain of 2 cups + Conn Smythe + Selke), but he needs to put in more time. Even a career-ending injury doesn't guarantee he automatically makes the Hall. And that's not a knock on him. The only players under 30 I can see being almost-surefire for the Hall if they retire today is Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin.

So I suppose team accomplishments matter now just as long as the player being compared to Toews has more Cups?

 

[BayStreetBully]

So I suppose team accomplishments matter now just as long as the player being compared to Toews has more Cups?

Of course it matters. Everything matters. If Toews captained the Hawks to 6 cups by now, he would most certainly be a lock even at age 27. Personal accomplishments matter too. If Toews won 3 Art Rosses by age 27, he'd make the Hall if he retired today. Maybe a mixture of team and personal accomplishments would get him in too. Perhaps if he'd won 4 cups and had 2 Art Rosses, that might be enough to get him in by age 27.

But Toews has neither the extreme team accomplishments like Dryden, nor the extreme personal accomplishments like Jagr. Nor does he have a mixture of VERY VERY good accomplishments in both team and personal of the kind that I mentioned (4 cups/2 Art Rosses). Hardly anyone has these kinds of credentials by age 27. That's why most "mortals" who end up making the Hall do so after putting in their time.

 

[Voight]

Dryden played on the Habs - a flipping dynasty. Bunny Larocque's numbers were ridiculous (and just as good if not better) as well, yet when he left the Habs they were terrible.

Any good (not great) goalie could have won cups on that team, they had the best defense of all time.

Parent, Esposito and Cheevers were arguably better. Maybe even Rogie Vachon.

Esposito si the only one who you could argue was better than him, IMO. Dryden even took a season off and still won Vezinas/was elite after that.

 

[K Fleur]

I think it's funny, a lot of people are trying to find reasons why Toews won't make the HOF instead of looking at the reasons why he will.

Absolutely inconceivable to think that people are going to have different opinions on a sports message board.

People aren't "trying find reasons why Toews won't make the HOF" anymore than you are trying to find reasons to put him in.

Presently the pros outweigh the cons.

Of course they do, I mean how could Toews have any cons when according to you he's never made a single mistake on the ice?

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Esposito si the only one who you could argue was better than him, IMO. Dryden even took a season off and still won Vezinas/was elite after that.

Those Habs teams could have put a gorilla in goalie pads and they would have still won cups...

All I can say is that Dryden's backups had similar numbers to his and when they left they had terrible numbers. Who's to deny the same wouldn't happen to Dryden himself? what happens if he plays for the Kings, Seals, Barons, Flames etc?

Parent without question was better than Dryden, I don't think most would argue that he wasn't, the same with Esposito and Vachon (who played on some terrible teams btw). Cheevers was great too, a bit weird in his just letting goals in if he had a lead but he was great..

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Of course it matters. Everything matters. If Toews captained the Hawks to 6 cups by now, he would most certainly be a lock even at age 27. Personal accomplishments matter too. If Toews won 3 Art Rosses by age 27, he'd make the Hall if he retired today. Maybe a mixture of team and personal accomplishments would get him in too. Perhaps if he'd won 4 cups and had 2 Art Rosses, that might be enough to get him in by age 27.

But Toews has neither the extreme team accomplishments like Dryden, nor the extreme personal accomplishments like Jagr. Nor does he have a mixture of VERY VERY good accomplishments in both team and personal of the kind that I mentioned (4 cups/2 Art Rosses). Hardly anyone has these kinds of credentials by age 27. That's why most "mortals" who end up making the Hall do so after putting in their time.

Yeah well Toews isn't going to win any scoring awards... Selke's, Conn Smythe's, Cups, Olympic gold metals and perhaps a Hart and such absolutely.....

So basically because Toews doesn't light up fantasy stats what he does beyond that isn't worth much?