Toews HHOF

[struckbyaparkedcar]

its great and all that he was an important part in winning but he only got the chance to be important on winning team because he is on an elite team with other elite players....put him on the panthers his whole career this thread doesn't exist

unless you think player X is the only reason a team won then i see very little reason to bring up team accomplishments of player X especially when trying to build a case as to why player X is a great player individually

Toews individual accomplishments during Chicago's two Cup wins:

1 Best Forward of the Olympics
1 Smythe
1 Selke
1 2nd Team All Star

I see something of a correlation between Toews' form and the accomplishments of all those other elite players around him.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

are you serious man are you serious? your gunna say toews already doesn't play with elite players, last season his top 4 players he played with are keith, seabrook, hossa, and sharp all very good/elite players

15pts is still quite a bit of points

Of course he's played with good talent. But Kane has also taken his game to another level the past few years, mostly away from Toews. Kane was a ppg player last year with Michael Handzus as his center. The way Kane is playing now, anyone who's on his line will benefit statically.


Toew's a .9 ppg player in his career. So in 82 games that's 74 points. So, it would be pretty normal IMO, for Toews to score anywhere from 60-80 points if he plays 82 games. A little puck luck, a little improvement, the Blackhawks finally getting a PP that works. That all could make a difference. I don't think 90 is out of the question. And again, I said a 90 point season is possible but not likely for him. 10-15 points every year is a big margin. But for one season, there's a lot of things that could happen to get him there once.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

its great and all that he was an important part in winning but he only got the chance to be important on winning team because he is on an elite team with other elite players....put him on the panthers his whole career this thread doesn't exist

unless you think player X is the only reason a team won then i see very little reason to bring up team accomplishments of player X
especially when trying to build a case as to why player X is a great player individually

The truth is somewhere in the middle. You seem to want to give him no credit for the Blackhawks being a great team, when certainly they are a great team partly because of Toews. So I do think team accomplishments play a role.

However, you are also correct that it isn't the only thing that matters. Obviously Toews isn't the only reason the Blackhawks are great. As usual, it's not black and white, but gray.

 

[Big Phil]

Reading the "why Messier > Sakic?" thread in the HoH also makes me think of this. Lately the Hart Trophy and First/Second Team All-Stars have been so connected to point totals that players with intangibles either end up being overrated or underrated it seems. People on HFBoards always say that Toews is overrated by the media due to his intangibles, and I'm sure the average hockey fan who doesn't frequent HF would say HFB posters are mostly stat-trackers who underrate Toews.

Makes me wonder if Messier were competing against the likes of Lemieux and Gretzky in modern times (2000s and later), where the internet makes stats easy to track for even the most casual fan, how he would be regarded.

This is all non-sequitur of course, but it just makes me ponder just how little we (the fans) know about the intangible impacts that players make on team success.

No one really thought Messier was close to Gretzky in the 1980s or even Lemieux once he hit his stride. 1990 changed some perceptions though. That might be the only time where Messier was close to either of them. The following season it was back to Mario and Wayne since they both did some special things.

I agree with all your points but if Toews career was cut short by tragedy (injury or god forbid death) then he would certainly be inducted. Charlie Gardiner is a perfect example.

I really cant think of a star player that just retired prematurely that isn't in the HOF.. Mike Bossy, Bobby Orr and Cam Neely maybe.

Not a bad example. Gardiner did have a short career. 7 years in total. Won a Cup his final year but he did have three 1st team all-stars and one 2nd team all-star. You could say he was a better goalie than Toews was a center. However, just imagining if Toews retired tomorrow I can only imagine his name constantly getting brought up for guys not in the HHOF yet. His name would simply never go away in my mind. Cam Neely's didn't either until he got in.

I will say this, Lindros still isn't in despite loads of injuries and retiring prematurely.

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

Toews individual accomplishments during Chicago's two Cup wins:

1 Best Forward of the Olympics
1 Smythe
1 Selke
1 2nd Team All Star

I see something of a correlation between Toews' form and the accomplishments of all those other elite players around him.

does that look hall worthy to you? if so then i guess me and you differ on who we think should be in the hall

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

Of course he's played with good talent. But Kane has also taken his game to another level the past few years, mostly away from Toews. Kane was a ppg player last year with Michael Handzus as his center. The way Kane is playing now, anyone who's on his line will benefit statically.


Toew's a .9 ppg player in his career. So in 82 games that's 74 points. So, it would be pretty normal IMO, for Toews to score anywhere from 60-80 points if he plays 82 games. A little puck luck, a little improvement, the Blackhawks finally getting a PP that works. That all could make a difference. I don't think 90 is out of the question. And again, I said a 90 point season is possible but not likely for him. 10-15 points every year is a big margin. But for one season, there's a lot of things that could happen to get him there once.

so with everything and i mean everything going for toews he might hit 90 pts....pretty telling about how good of an individual player he is

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

so with everything and i mean everything going for toews he might hit 90 pts....pretty telling about how good of an individual player he is

It's likely that no one hits 90 points this season.

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

The truth is somewhere in the middle. You seem to want to give him no credit for the Blackhawks being a great team, when certainly they are a great team partly because of Toews. So I do think team accomplishments play a role.

However, you are also correct that it isn't the only thing that matters. Obviously Toews isn't the only reason the Blackhawks are great. As usual, it's not black and white, but gray.

Why does it play a role? your essentially negativing ( is that even a word? )players who don't have a chance to win a cup without any fault of there own

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

It's likely that no one hits 90 points this season.

forget raw numbers, check where he is ranking among other players in the scoring race, hes currently 23rd...doesnt really scream hhof

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

does that look hall worthy to you? if so then i guess me and you differ on who we think should be in the hall

I think the being a dominant team's first offensive and defensive option at the most important position in hockey is Hall worthy in and of itself. If Kopitar's career ended today, I'd give him the same treatment.

I guess you don't believe at all in rewarding the concept of individuals sacrificing for team success, unless those players also tack on meaningless years full of empty points at the end of their careers to meet some arbitrary points threshold.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Why does it play a role? your essentially negativing ( is that even a word? )players who don't have a chance to win a cup without any fault of there own

Because that's the ultimate goal. To win championships. If you have a big part in your teams doing that, that means something. You get credit for that in my world and most peoples, I think. It's not the only thing that matters when evaluating players and career, but it does matter. In the words of Herm Edwards, "You play to win the game."

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

I will say this, Lindros still isn't in despite loads of injuries and retiring prematurely.

The difference with Lindros and Toews is the pervasive feeling that Lindros the individual negatively impacted his teams' ability to reach their ultimate goals and his HHOF resume, while Toews sacrificed the latter in pursuit of the former.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

forget raw numbers, check where he is ranking among other players in the scoring race, hes currently 23rd...doesnt really scream hhof

He's 23rd and having an off year. If you are only going to evaluate Toews on points, then he might never be a hall of famer. But if that's all you see when you watch him, I don't think your watching close enough.

And again, he shouldn't be in now. But he is playing at a hall of fame level. He just needs to do it for longer.

 

[MS]

He's 23rd and having an off year. If you are only going to evaluate Toews on points, then he might never be a hall of famer. But if that's all you see when you watch him, I don't think your watching close enough.

And again, he shouldn't be in now. But he is playing at a hall of fame level. He just needs to do it for longer.

He's actually having one of his better years.

His career scoring finishes are :

89th
42th
35th
14th
67th
15th (shortened season)
25th
23rd

Outside of Bob Gainey, it's hard to think of any HHOF forwards who are worse in this regard.

 

[vintguy]

No doubt with those stats.

 

[Big Phil]

He's actually having one of his better years.

His career scoring finishes are :

89th
42th
35th
14th
67th
15th (shortened season)
25th
23rd

Outside of Bob Gainey, it's hard to think of any HHOF forwards who are worse in this regard.

I love Toews, I do have to ask, does he have THAT much on Bergeron right now? Maybe someday Bergeron gets in as well if he keeps up this movement of strong playoff performances + Selke trophies. But even then it isn't a lock. I think Toews will get in but not today.

 

[K Fleur]

I love Toews, I do have to ask, does he have THAT much on Bergeron right now? Maybe someday Bergeron gets in as well if he keeps up this movement of strong playoff performances + Selke trophies. But even then it isn't a lock. I think Toews will get in but not today.

Nope, he sure doesn't. Same with Kopitar.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

He's actually having one of his better years.

His career scoring finishes are :

89th
42th
35th
14th
67th
15th (shortened season)
25th
23rd

Outside of Bob Gainey, it's hard to think of any HHOF forwards who are worse in this regard.

He's scoring at .83 ppg this year which would be his lowest ppg ever. 2010 he was 11th not 14th 1 point behind the magical top 10. The 89th and 67th seasons he was hurt and obviously had less games to get points.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I love Toews, I do have to ask, does he have THAT much on Bergeron right now? Maybe someday Bergeron gets in as well if he keeps up this movement of strong playoff performances + Selke trophies. But even then it isn't a lock. I think Toews will get in but not today.

Whatever arguments people have about Toews' scorring is even more so with Bergy. He's a .75 ppg. Toews is .90.

Kopitar is a very fair comparison. .90 ppg. 2 cups.

 

[Voight]

Unless you win a Hart or another award several times (like Bure having 3 goal scoring titles) you're just not getting in on a short career.

Lindros is still waiting and no way in hell is Toews a better player or had the better career.

Lindros
Hart Trophy
Olympic Gold Medal
Olympic Silver Medal
2 World Junior Championships Gold Medal
Canada Cup Championship
World Cup of Hockey Runner-Up

372 Goals and 865 Points in lower scoring era.

Lindros was also the complete opposite of a team player and is a black eye to the hockey world. Plus he was a passenger when he won Gold and not the best forward, which believe it or not is a big deal in a tournament of the worlds best, and on the best team.

If he wasn't such a ******, greedy ass and a ***** he would get more consideration.

Also for reference, scoring levels now are very similar to what they were in the DPE.

 

[MS]

I love Toews, I do have to ask, does he have THAT much on Bergeron right now? Maybe someday Bergeron gets in as well if he keeps up this movement of strong playoff performances + Selke trophies. But even then it isn't a lock. I think Toews will get in but not today.

Nope.

If you take out Bergeron's two years from 2007-09 when he was sidelined/coming back from serious concussion problems, they've basically had exactly the same careers.

He's scoring at .83 ppg this year which would be his lowest ppg ever. 2010 he was 11th not 14th 1 point behind the magical top 10. The 89th and 67th seasons he was hurt and obviously had less games to get points.

Scoring continues to drop. This isn't an 'off year' for him. Maybe 'one of his better years' was stretching it, but it's average at worst.

 

[Dissonance]

I love Toews, I do have to ask, does he have THAT much on Bergeron right now? Maybe someday Bergeron gets in as well if he keeps up this movement of strong playoff performances + Selke trophies. But even then it isn't a lock. I think Toews will get in but not today.

Agree that the gap between Toews and Bergeron isn't huge on the ice, but if Toews continues on his current pace, he's going to end up with the sort of resume that HOF voters seem to love. 1,000+ points on an Original 6 team. Captain on two Cup-winners. The Selke. The Conn Smythe. The media adoration. I sorta doubt the voters will even bother to look at how many top-10 scoring finishes he has.

If Bergeron racks up 1,000+ points with Boston, he might have a shot, but that's going to be a lot harder for him than it will be for Toews. And fair or not, that does seem to be an important milestone.

 

[K Fleur]

Lindros was also the complete opposite of a team player

How so? Because he held out? What star didn't hold out in the 90's?

and is a black eye to the hockey world. .

Bit of a stretch, to say the least.

Lindros dominated on the ice at a level Toews has never, and likely will never, reach.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Nope.


Scoring continues to drop. This isn't an 'off year' for him. Maybe 'one of his better years' was stretching it, but it's average at worst.

Toews scoring continues to drop or the leagues?

If he's having his lowest ppg ever, how is it not an off year? And I can tell you from watching him game in and game out he's had some bad stretches of play, to the point where many people have wondered if he's playing through injury. He actually had to get hot in march (13 points in 13 games) just to get his numbers anywhere near his averages.

 

[tjcurrie]

It comes down to image. Toews, through many fortunate circumstances as well as his own play, has a good one. Lindros, because of his d*** parents and unfortunate circumstances (Philly never really finding a goalie being #1) has a bad one, even though he was the superior player.