Confirmed with Link: Timothy Liljegren signed to a 2 year extension (AAV of 1.4M)

[saltming]

I've already answered this. You have to know what speed training he's had, to know... if he's had none, or little, yes, he can improve.. but to what degree varies from person to person. We are dealing with pretty small margins of improvement needed though. If he's already trained his max, then no... but we don't know what training he does, to really know to what degree he can improve.



It's not the speed, as much as using explosive power the first few steps for acceleration... (which incidentally, would help top speed some too)... But acceleration improves positioning, which is ultra critical in defending.

I agree that positioning is critical in defending, but I will say it's a timing issue more than acceleration related.
If he learns how to adapt his speed, or lack there of, he will learn how to defend at the NHL level. I present Justin Holl as proof. It took him a bit but when he figured out he needed to be in place before a certain time, he became good enough for a top 4 role

 

[Smif]

Okay. So can Sandin improves enough of his speed where he is no longer an liability on the ice with his footspeed where he constantly getting outskated by opposing 4th liners?

Gardiner used to get beat outside by 4th liners all the time, having a high IQ and knowing when to pinch off, body check, or poke check is much more important and is improved with experience. Losing a footrace to a puck in the corner isn't a big deal.

 

[Gallagbi]

You believe Dubas negotiated Giordano down to 800k?

I think getting him at the TDL and having him play here likely impacted negotiations.

 

[613Leafer]

Sounds like he never wanted long term.

A massive wrinkle in negotiations right now is that the cap right now is subject to the NHLPA's obligations to pay back the COVID debt to the owners. i.e. the cap right now isn't actually based on a 50/50 split of HRR and is artificially only going up 1M per season until that debt is paid. But once that debt is paid, it switches back to the 50% split, so in one off-season we could quite realistically have a ~10-12M jump in the cap (as it will essentially be the equivalent of like a ~4-5 year jump, minus those 1M increases). That's expected to occur ~2-3 years from now.

So if you're a player, you do NOT want to sign a ~4-5+ year deal, if the cap hit % is going to be based on today's flat cap. Sign a ~2 year deal, and then when the cap takes a big leap forward and you're still in your mid-20s (plus more proven than you are today, presumably), sign the long-term deal.

 

[Jozay]

Seems about right for a 2 year deal.

Glad he's checked off the to do list.

 

[ACC1224]

I think Dubas was fair with him. I think he was respectful, I think he told him what the team could do, what they thought he was worth, and where they thought he would fit. I think as a player, he respected Dubas for being upfront and not being insulting with an offer. I think Dubas building a team that finished with franchise records had an impact on Gio's decision to take less to sign with a team he thought could win some rounds.

Similarly, Lou's negotiation tactics of being insulting left bad tastes in the mouths of several core players that Dubas had to repair relationships with. For example, Marner was hurt Lou didn't view him as a franchise piece and cost him millions in bonuses he hit after refusing to give them. It resulted in Marner wanting to take every penny, after being told "it's a business" from Lou after being bent over.

So I think Dubas learned from that, and negotiates from a position of 'this is what we can do, this is what we can offer you aside from money' and it has worked well for him. Like everything, it was not in a vacuum. I would trust Dubas to re-negotiate the cores contracts again. He's learned a lot and managed to find ways to get players to take less.



Hope not, would be the biggest mistake the franchise has made in some time. But I am sure you will be happy to hire more Burkes and Nonis types to overpay David Clarksons in the name of grit

I knew it!

 

[stickty111]

Being self aware is half the battle. He was great last year but if he can close the gaps he does have I'm very excited for the Liljegren we see next season.

Jonas just released an article and he said Liljegren is aiming to be the RHD Leafs have been looking for.
Nice to see the ceiling he has put for himself.

 

[ACC1224]

I think getting him at the TDL and having him play here likely impacted negotiations.

For sure it would have. It's always nice to feel wanted and appreciated no matter what your line of work is.
I doubt there was much of a negotiation. Dubas wanted to bring him back and he said "great, give me the minimum'.

 

[saltming]

So when he gets a player to take less, it's because they wanted to. When a player takes more, it's not because they wanted to it's on Dubas.

Or we can accept it takes two to make a deal, and Gio and Lilly both knew they are not Matthews or Marner?

According to Elliotte Friedman of Sportsnet , the $800K deal original deal between defenseman Mark Giordano and the Toronto Maple Leafs was not the original deal the two sides had settled on. Apparently, GM Kyle Dubas and Giordano had an understanding that the team would sign him for “around” $1 million per season, but it was Giordano who reached out to the team and offered to take less.

Giordano’s $800K Deal Not the Original Deal He Agreed To With Maple Leafs

According to Elliotte Friedman of Sportsnet, the $800K deal original deal between defenseman Mark Giordano and the Toronto Maple Leafs was not the original deal the two sides had settled on.

www.yardbarker.com

 

[ACC1224]

According to Elliotte Friedman of Sportsnet , the $800K deal original deal between defenseman Mark Giordano and the Toronto Maple Leafs was not the original deal the two sides had settled on. Apparently, GM Kyle Dubas and Giordano had an understanding that the team would sign him for “around” $1 million per season, but it was Giordano who reached out to the team and offered to take less.

Giordano’s $800K Deal Not the Original Deal He Agreed To With Maple Leafs

According to Elliotte Friedman of Sportsnet, the $800K deal original deal between defenseman Mark Giordano and the Toronto Maple Leafs was not the original deal the two sides had settled on.

www.yardbarker.com

Now that's some crafty negotiating.

 

[HockeyVirus]

I knew it!

So you aren't interested in discussions, you just want to blindly bash on Dubas. Ok got it.

According to Elliotte Friedman of Sportsnet , the $800K deal original deal between defenseman Mark Giordano and the Toronto Maple Leafs was not the original deal the two sides had settled on. Apparently, GM Kyle Dubas and Giordano had an understanding that the team would sign him for “around” $1 million per season, but it was Giordano who reached out to the team and offered to take less.

Giordano’s $800K Deal Not the Original Deal He Agreed To With Maple Leafs

According to Elliotte Friedman of Sportsnet, the $800K deal original deal between defenseman Mark Giordano and the Toronto Maple Leafs was not the original deal the two sides had settled on.

www.yardbarker.com

In the context of the larger body of work, he's managed to find these value deals over and over. Hyman, Bunting, Kampf, Gio, Kapanen, etc etc.

I am not saying Dubas hard baleld Gio to 800k. But I am saying, he put Gio in a position where he felt he was valued enough, had a good spot to win, and was liked enough by management he felt comfortable trading money for a spot here. That is part of negotiations. Anyone who has worked in sales knows the first stage is rapport. He has made an environment where players are willing to be flexible on their demands. Toronto has not had that in years. And Dubas wasn't GM long enough to change the culture when the big 3 were up either.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Good deal.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I mean even Gio at $1 million is really good

 

[Martin Skoula]

It's crazy how it's so easy to sign these hometown guys for 800k but it never happened for some reason under previous GMs.

 

[Zur En Arrh]

I think Dubas was fair with him. I think he was respectful, I think he told him what the team could do, what they thought he was worth, and where they thought he would fit. I think as a player, he respected Dubas for being upfront and not being insulting with an offer. I think Dubas building a team that finished with franchise records had an impact on Gio's decision to take less to sign with a team he thought could win some rounds.

Similarly, Lou's negotiation tactics of being insulting left bad tastes in the mouths of several core players that Dubas had to repair relationships with. For example, Marner was hurt Lou didn't view him as a franchise piece and cost him millions in bonuses he hit after refusing to give them. It resulted in Marner wanting to take every penny, after being told "it's a business" from Lou after being bent over.

So I think Dubas learned from that, and negotiates from a position of 'this is what we can do, this is what we can offer you aside from money' and it has worked well for him. Like everything, it was not in a vacuum. I would trust Dubas to re-negotiate the cores contracts again. He's learned a lot and managed to find ways to get players to take less.



Hope not, would be the biggest mistake the franchise has made in some time. But I am sure you will be happy to hire more Burkes and Nonis types to overpay David Clarksons in the name of grit

to be fair Lou had to deal with Marners weirdo dad. Didn't they have some website up where they were selling merch with the teams logo lol. Like wait a few years you're getting your money Paul..

 

[All Mod Cons]

That's in line with where he should be. The best RFA deal to date for management

 

[hotpaws]

I think Dubas was fair with him. I think he was respectful, I think he told him what the team could do, what they thought he was worth, and where they thought he would fit. I think as a player, he respected Dubas for being upfront and not being insulting with an offer. I think Dubas building a team that finished with franchise records had an impact on Gio's decision to take less to sign with a team he thought could win some rounds.

Similarly, Lou's negotiation tactics of being insulting left bad tastes in the mouths of several core players that Dubas had to repair relationships with. For example, Marner was hurt Lou didn't view him as a franchise piece and cost him millions in bonuses he hit after refusing to give them. It resulted in Marner wanting to take every penny, after being told "it's a business" from Lou after being bent over.

So I think Dubas learned from that, and negotiates from a position of 'this is what we can do, this is what we can offer you aside from money' and it has worked well for him. Like everything, it was not in a vacuum. I would trust Dubas to re-negotiate the cores contracts again. He's learned a lot and managed to find ways to get players to take less.



Hope not, would be the biggest mistake the franchise has made in some time. But I am sure you will be happy to hire more Burkes and Nonis types to overpay David Clarksons in the name of grit

MM would have only hit the bonuses that Lou didn't give him in the last year of his elc

so firing a failed GM would be a mistake ? lol

and Burke had a much much bigger following than Dubas did , i still have the burns from the flaming i received when i said he was leading us down a path to no where , lol

i seems it's a tradition here to love failed GM's and then shit on them in hindsight , Dubies tenure here will age worse than Burkes since he walked into a golden situation unlike Burke

 

[AvroArrow]

Great deal by Dubas, love it.

 

[saltming]

So you aren't interested in discussions, you just want to blindly bash on Dubas. Ok got it.



In the context of the larger body of work, he's managed to find these value deals over and over. Hyman, Bunting, Kampf, Gio, Kapanen, etc etc.

I am not saying Dubas hard baleld Gio to 800k. But I am saying, he put Gio in a position where he felt he was valued enough, had a good spot to win, and was liked enough by management he felt comfortable trading money for a spot here. That is part of negotiations. Anyone who has worked in sales knows the first stage is rapport. He has made an environment where players are willing to be flexible on their demands. Toronto has not had that in years. And Dubas wasn't GM long enough to change the culture when the big 3 were up either.

I fully agree with you.
Dubas should be credited with turning the franchise from a place players ran away from, to a preferred destination

 

[ACC1224]

I fully agree with you.
Dubas should be credited with turning the franchise from a place players ran away from, to a preferred destination

Players certainly do like him and players like to join contenders.
Who are the players that ran away?

 

[keonsbitterness]

Fair contract.

 

[hotpaws]

So you aren't interested in discussions, you just want to blindly bash on Dubas. Ok got it.



In the context of the larger body of work, he's managed to find these value deals over and over. Hyman, Bunting, Kampf, Gio, Kapanen, etc etc.

I am not saying Dubas hard baleld Gio to 800k. But I am saying, he put Gio in a position where he felt he was valued enough, had a good spot to win, and was liked enough by management he felt comfortable trading money for a spot here. That is part of negotiations. Anyone who has worked in sales knows the first stage is rapport. He has made an environment where players are willing to be flexible on their demands. Toronto has not had that in years. And Dubas wasn't GM long enough to change the culture when the big 3 were up either.

Hyman was a Lou value deal , Lou signed Hyman and Brown the same off season for low 2's , Dubie then sign Kap and Mango who were in the same situation to deals in the 3's . Hardly something to praise him for .

 

[saltming]

Players certainly do like him and players like to join contenders.
Who are the players that ran away?

The imlach reign of terror and the Ballard years did lots and it was generally known as not a hospitable spot

"Despite this financial success, the succeeding decades would see Ballard transform the Leafs from league leaders to league laughingstocks."

Toronto Maple Leaf: The Best (and Worst) of Harold Ballard

Toronto Maple Leaf: The Best (and Worst) of Harold Ballard. Counting down the best, worst and weirdest of former Leafs owner Harold Ballard.

editorinleaf.com

No player wanted to come to a team where the owner, coach, GM would throw them under the bus and undermine any attempt they had to win.

I didn't think this was hidden knowledge

Players certainly do like him and players like to join contenders.
Who are the players that ran away?

15 Players Who Hated Being A Toronto Maple Leaf

Playing for the Toronto Maple Leafs is supposed to be an honor, but these players had a really bad experience and regret their time in T.O.

www.thesportster.com

This too

 

[Gabriel426]

Gardiner used to get beat outside by 4th liners all the time, having a high IQ and knowing when to pinch off, body check, or poke check is much more important and is improved with experience. Losing a footrace to a puck in the corner isn't a big deal.

And was Gardiner ever a great Dman?

 

[hockeywiz542]

Jonas just released an article and he said Liljegren is aiming to be the RHD Leafs have been looking for.
Nice to see the ceiling he has put for himself.

The Leafs got Timothy Liljegren on a new contract. What does it mean for Rasmus Sandin?

This is a very low-risk bet on Liljegren tapping into his upside, the kind that made him a first-round pick in 2017.

theathletic.com

The Maple Leafs had two young defencemen to sign this summer. One down — in Timothy Liljegren. Another — in Rasmus Sandin — still to go.

The Leafs announced a two-year deal, with a $1.4 million cap hit for Liljegren on Monday morning. Liljegren will be paid $1.3 million in year one, and $1.5 million in year two.

Leafs assistant GM and contract negotiator Brandon Pridham met with Liljegren’s agent, Peter Wallen, for an hour at the draft combine in early June. They mostly discussed one and two-year deals. Not surprisingly, Liljegren would have gone for an even longer commitment had the Leafs had the cap space and/or willingness to do so.

As it is, the Leafs are betting that Liljegren takes another step this season, or next, and delivers them some value under the cap. A one-year deal would have saved them $500,000 or so for next season, but if Liljegren took off he would have been eligible for arbitration and a much bigger payday next summer.

He totaled 23 points in 61 games in his first full NHL season, fifth among all rookie defenders, including 19 points in the final 41 contests.

This is a very low-risk bet on Liljegren tapping into more of that upside, the kind that made him a first-round pick way back in 2017.

Liljegren left his biggest impression of all down the stretch of the regular season, when he shined with veteran Mark Giordano. The two liked playing together. It got bumpy for Liljegren in his first NHL playoffs though. He looked overmatched in Games 1 and 2 against the Lightning and was scratched in favour of Justin Holl for Games 3-7. Overall though, it was a season of considerable progression, particularly in the processing speed department.