Time to Hire Barry Trotz

[notbias]

Systematically what do you see when you watch the Leafs this year?

Are the players struggling because of the coach? We have not looked good this year, I 100% agree.

People just need to make their minds up about if it is the coach or players.

I am told Keefe's systems suck, so I am assuming we need to ease up on the players, what player can play well in such a bad system?

But then I am told that the players aren't playing hard enough, so should we move onto coach #3 and just give the players a pass again?

 

[DarkKnight]

Lots of Trotz talk today on the radio. Seems to be building a life of its own.

 

[Blaylock38]

Are the players struggling because of the coach? We have not looked good this year, I 100% agree.

People just need to make their minds up about if it is the coach or players.

I am told Keefe's systems suck, so I am assuming we need to ease up on the players, what player can play well in such a bad system?

But then I am told that the players aren't playing hard enough, so should we move onto coach #3 and just give the players a pass again?

It has to be the players, there has been no significant changes to the core, but I also think it's the media. They set fires everywhere, create doubt, turn their hypotheticals into stories, the players get questioned about it, I am sure they are hearing Noise about Trots, just like they did about Babs.

Overall having a GM in his last year, Matthews in what could be his final year in Tor, the dynamics of the season are not great, the only thing that will bring stability is winning,

 

[Stephen]

It has to be the players, there has been no significant changes to the core, but I also think it's the media. They set fires everywhere, create doubt, turn their hypotheticals into stories, the players get questioned about it, I am sure they are hearing Noise about Trots, just like they did about Babs.

Overall having a GM in his last year, Matthews in what could be his final year in Tor, the dynamics of the season are not great, the only thing that will bring stability is winning,

Barry Trotz could be a Hail Mary attempt if things don't really get on track over the next couple of weeks, but feels like the GM and his lack of contract would be extremely lame duck in that power dynamic. Like would Dubas start making roster tweaks to Trotz's specifications?

 

[TorMapleJays]

They beat us because our offense went cold.

Why did the offense go cold?

 

[Martin Skoula]

Why did the offense go cold?

I'm not in the room, they're still setting up the way they do when the offense is going but they're bobbling simple passes and ripping pucks wide of the net.

Whatever the problem is, I don't think playing more conservatively is the fix for scoring more goals. Apparently Nylander is going to hate playing for Trotz but it seems like his breakaways are our only consistent offense in the playoffs because there's no one to mishandle his passes.

 

[Menzinger]

It would certainly change how the cherry pickers on our team play, Nylander would hate his system, Samsonov and Murray would instantly become legit 1A & 1B goalies. Trots coaches the game right, no cheaters, no passengers. Marner would be instant Selkie candidate, year in year out.

For me, this team plays an immature system, keep the puck at all cost and out individual skill the other team, which works well in the regular season when you play teams with lesser individual talent. IMO they have out grown their current system and coach.

In the playoffs every team has "some" high end talent, everyone, even the crappy Habs had Price at the top of his game + a coach in Richardson who simply out coached our system. There is a reason why we are out in the 1st round every year, the immature system we play is not a playoff system. The kind of positional accountability that you need to win a cup will never be in a Keefe coached team, its simply NOT a playoff system.

Then you get the "Yeah buts" Keefe is 123W - 53L -19OL (.674 winning %). He is the Leafs regular season most winning % coach of all time, that must mean something right? For Leaf coaches who have coached as many or more playoff games than Keefe, Keefe has the 7th worst winning % (out of 10 coaches), (.421%). He;s .350 points worse in the playoffs, does that stat only scream out to me? That means something, that's probably the most important Keefe stat you need to look at.

Elite skill in the regular season hides a lot of systematic warts, warts that you don't see in the regular season, that get exposed in the playoffs. Hire Trotz, end this charade of shinny hockey.

We saw how Marner responded to a heavy handed older school coach in Babs, and it wasn't exactly clam behind the scenes.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Barry Trotz could be a Hail Mary attempt if things don't really get on track over the next couple of weeks, but feels like the GM and his lack of contract would be extremely lame duck in that power dynamic. Like would Dubas start making roster tweaks to Trotz's specifications?

It usually 20 games into the seasons or american thanksgiving thats usually a mark on how our team is truly at.

We saw how Marner responded to a heavy handed older school coach in Babs, and it wasn't exactly clam behind the scenes.

TBH I dont think it'll be the same IMO. I feel like Babs is something else compared to Trotz.

 

[Blaylock38]

Barry Trotz could be a Hail Mary attempt if things don't really get on track over the next couple of weeks, but feels like the GM and his lack of contract would be extremely lame duck in that power dynamic. Like would Dubas start making roster tweaks to Trotz's specifications?

I agree 100%, I can't see Dubas firing Keefe (not saying he should) and putting Trotz in there. And that's a great point would Dubas make these types of moves to support him? he didn't with Babcock. I think if they decide Keefe has to go, Keefe and Dubas will be let go together, with Shanny and Pridham serving as GMs for the remainder of the year and that is when I could see Trotz coming in. Then they will have to find the right guy to either sign Matthews or trade him next year. There is a lot going in a year that could be make it or break it for a bunch of people up and down the organization.

 

[Stephen]

I agree 100%, I can't see Dubas firing Keefe (not saying he should) and putting Trotz in there. And that's a great point would Dubas make these types of moves to support him? he didn't with Babcock. I think if they decide Keefe has to go, Keefe and Dubas will be let go together, with Shanny and Pridham serving as GMs for the remainder of the year and that is when I could see Trotz coming in. Then they will have to find the right guy to either sign Matthews or trade him next year. There is a lot going in a year that could be make it or break it for a bunch of people up and down the organization.

What I find interesting about this line of thinking is the connection between Dubas-Keefe and their ultimate fate either together or apart.

If the team hits the ditch, is Dubas going to be more loyal to his vision of how he wanted things done with his guy behind the bench, or is he receptive to change and moving and shaking to modify the vision by bringing in a coach you wouldn't associate with Dubas hockey?

Dubas has talked about his belief in this group time and again and tied his own hands from making big changes, right or wrong. The critical question is: is there a difference between winning at all costs or winning a certain way?

 

[DarkKnight]

What I find interesting about this line of thinking is the connection between Dubas-Keefe and their ultimate fate either together or apart.

If the team hits the ditch, is Dubas going to be more loyal to his vision of how he wanted things done with his guy behind the bench, or is he receptive to change and moving and shaking to modify the vision by bringing in a coach you wouldn't associate with Dubas hockey?

Dubas has talked about his belief in this group time and again and tied his own hands from making big changes, right or wrong. The critical question is: is there a difference between winning at all costs or winning a certain way?

Unfortunately, he’s already played the coach card, installed his man, he’s almost married their fates. It’s hard to see how he pivots now, without sabotaging himself. Seems they’re a package deal. I think these are questions for Shanny really.

 

[Gilles Meloche]

I would rather go down this year with Trotz behind the bench than Keefe. Islanders haven’t been the same team since he left either…

 

[Leaf Fans]

Barry Trotz could be a Hail Mary attempt if things don't really get on track over the next couple of weeks, but feels like the GM and his lack of contract would be extremely lame duck in that power dynamic. Like would Dubas start making roster tweaks to Trotz's specifications?

I don't it would be a "Hail Mary"attempt. If the team thinks they would be better with Trotz, then they should hire Trotz.

 

[kevsh]

If the team hits the ditch, is Dubas going to be more loyal to his vision of how he wanted things done with his guy behind the bench, or is he receptive to change and moving and shaking to modify the vision by bringing in a coach you wouldn't associate with Dubas hockey?

I actually believe the latter, but only when Dubas is completely convinced option A won't work. And based on this past off-season he clearly is not yet convinced option A won't work.

Then perhaps the real question is does Shanny/MLSE make that decision for him (by bringing in another GM and coach) first?

 

[Stephen]

I don't it would be a "Hail Mary"attempt. If the team thinks they would be better with Trotz, then they should hire Trotz.

I wouldn't dispute that Trotz is a better systems coach than Keefe, just do we have the personnel for him to coach it up the way he wants?

 

[Leaf Fans]

I wouldn't dispute that Trotz is a better systems coach than Keefe, just do we have the personnel for him to coach it up the way he wants?

He should be able to adjust or they can make a commitment to him, if they believe he will be better than they have now.

 

[LeafEgo]

Barry Trotz could be a Hail Mary attempt if things don't really get on track over the next couple of weeks, but feels like the GM and his lack of contract would be extremely lame duck in that power dynamic. Like would Dubas start making roster tweaks to Trotz's specifications?

With Dubies history with Babs and Trotz established GM aspirations it would make an awkward situation.

Dubie and Keefe seem like a combo which complicates things. If Keefe has to go maybe Dubie gets his pick for the season and Trotz is put on ice - some extra time for the family and the warm weather vacation.

 

[Lightsol]

To play dump and chase, you also need some physical presence up front to pound your opponents defence and put them on their heels. The Leafs have very few players capable of playing that physical game and the few that they do have, aren’t players with meaningful offensive ability.

Until that changes, they will get bounced from the playoffs repeatedly by any team capable of playing an effective trap game.

You, uh, are aware that Babcock spent three years trying to win this way, and it never worked, and that was when Lou was the GM and could have gotten him any players he wanted to play that style?

 

[Lightsol]

In theory though, the return on Matthews and Marner alone would accelerate a rebuild by half a decade.

In theory. In reality, no one in the league would pay the likely asking price...

 

[Lightsol]

Why did the offense go cold?

Might have something to do with our last three opponents being in the top 5 in playoff save percentage over the last decade...

 

[Hellcat]

We saw how Marner responded to a heavy handed older school coach in Babs, and it wasn't exactly clam behind the scenes.

Both are old school coaches one is a manipulator and plays psychotic head games the other is not. Same school different class.

 

[Hellcat]

Are the players struggling because of the coach? We have not looked good this year, I 100% agree.

People just need to make their minds up about if it is the coach or players.

I am told Keefe's systems suck, so I am assuming we need to ease up on the players, what player can play well in such a bad system?

But then I am told that the players aren't playing hard enough, so should we move onto coach #3 and just give the players a pass again?

Keefe system has a time and a place, unfortunately that time has passed.

The issue this year and the stats bear this out, the team is not getting shots from the dirty areas between the dots and the players are cheating too much offensively, this bears out in the eye test. Its the players not executing yes, but its the coach is not holding then accountable. Keefe is weak, you see this in his locker room Ra Ra Ra speeches, you see this in his actions when he takes Bunting off the top line to hold Bunting accountable for his cheating but lets Nylander cherry pick all day ... kinda sends a message that if your a star you can do what ever you want but if you are a lunch pail Larry, you better watch out. We know that Nylander and Tavares defensivly are a hot mess, we've known that for at least a season, so why keep them on the same line only to witness what was perhaps the worst shift in 30 years in Las Vegas, it was a Keystone cop thing.

You can go back and check out my posts after I think it was the 3rd game, I said this team looks like they have never played together before, that is on the coach. The coach controls ice time it's his job to hold them accountable. Anyone remember one of the first practice's in preseason where Keefe lost it really early into the practice? I thought jeeze he's F-ed if he has to give the riot act this early in the season, that my friends is foreshadowing... Keefe knows this team is done with him, we know they are done with him, Trotz knows they are done with him...

 

[HockeyVirus]

In theory. In reality, no one in the league would pay the likely asking price...

For a 25 year old, two way physical 60 goal scoring league MVP and rocket winner? Uhhh... Yeah they would. They'd easily get 2 firsts plus a top prospect at a minimum.

Marner himself would return a first + top prospect ++ and even more if we retained (in this scenario we are rebuilding anyways). Trading those two potentially could net us 4 firsts, multiple top prospects, and a pile of other assets.

So like I said, in that hypothetical, it is a massive kick start. Only problem is what if we draft guys like Slafkovsky instead of another Matthews. Hence we we do not want to trade these guys and want to win, it is a rare treat to have them

 

[Bomber0104]

For a 25 year old, two way physical 60 goal scoring league MVP and rocket winner? Uhhh... Yeah they would. They'd easily get 2 firsts plus a top prospect at a minimum.

Marner himself would return a first + top prospect ++ and even more if we retained (in this scenario we are rebuilding anyways). Trading those two potentially could net us 4 firsts, multiple top prospects, and a pile of other assets.

So like I said, in that hypothetical, it is a massive kick start. Only problem is what if we draft guys like Slafkovsky instead of another Matthews. Hence we we do not want to trade these guys and want to win, it is a rare treat to have them

The Flames/Panthers just blew a huge hole in the theory that "you won't get full value" in a Matthews/Marner/Nylander trade.

Turns out you just need a competent GM to make that trade.

Jury is still out whether we have one of those..

 

[Dreakmur]

The players get blamed daily in threads but somehow changing the coach will be what puts us over the edge, makes sense.

A huge part of it is that the players aren’t held accountable, so they do whatever they hell they want.

Could the players play winning hockey? Maybe not, but they never will under Keefe. He doesn’t have the courage to force it.