Time to Hire Barry Trotz

[thewave]

Pointless to bring Trotz under Dubas. In my opinion Dubas already made the same mistake Burke did with Wilson. Keeping a friend on too long.

It's the exact same mismatch as Babcock/Dubas or Wilson(Once adopting Run and Gun)/Burke or Carlyle/Nonis(Hired under Burke but seemed to have more a Wilson philosophy). The Dubas/Keefe isn't a mismatch it's because they aren't good enough to get the team where it needs to be.

---This is not about how good the above tandems were individually. Just about Manager and Coach style mismatches.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Pointless to bring Trotz under Dubas. In my opinion Dubas already made the same mistake Burke did with Wilson. Keeping a friend on too long.

It's the exact same mismatch as Babcock/Dubas or Wilson(Once adopting Run and Gun)/Burke or Carlyle/Nonis(Hired under Burke but seemed to have more a Wilson philosophy). The Dubas/Keefe isn't a mismatch it's because they aren't good enough to get the team where it needs to be.

---This is not about how good the above tandems were individually. Just about Manager and Coach style mismatches.

Those 2 think da weird dynamic works for them like frick and frack .. i don't see it either .. it makes me LOL when I think of Dubie having an analytics talk with Keefer and Keefer saying yeah boss sure yeah boss sure .. then he leaves mtg with smile on his face and he didn't have slightest clue what was said but plays Dubie lineup and Dubie thinks he got buy in .. it makes me LOL .. bottom line this is Shanny's doing and he got a LT deal for himself so he is cashing huge cheques all da way to da bank .. Dubie got his $$$ too and then helped out his friend gets his severance as well .. only thing that is sure is from Larry on down everyone is cashing from our Leafs .. and likely idiots like me who keep funding it

 

[HockeyVirus]

The Flames/Panthers just blew a huge hole in the theory that "you won't get full value" in a Matthews/Marner/Nylander trade.

Turns out you just need a competent GM to make that trade.

Jury is still out whether we have one of those..

Sorry you are comparing Matthews to Huberdeau? ......

 

[Bomber0104]

Sorry you are comparing Matthews to Huberdeau? ......

I'm suggesting hockey trades are possible in today's NHL, as the Calgary/Florida trade demonstrated.

I guess I didn't make that 100% crystal clear?

 

[HockeyVirus]

I'm suggesting hockey trades are possible in today's NHL, as the Calgary/Florida trade demonstrated.

I guess I didn't make that 100% crystal clear?

Oh maybe we aren't on the same page I wasn't suggesting that we SHOULD trade Matthews and Marner and rebuild. I am just saying it is an option for a new GM.

FAR more likely ownership pushes for a similar trades as the Panthers did you are right about that.

 

[notbias]

A huge part of it is that the players aren’t held accountable, so they do whatever they hell they want.

Could the players play winning hockey? Maybe not, but they never will under Keefe. He doesn’t have the courage to force it.

Babcock held players accountable, what was the excuse there?

I think Keefe does too, but you probably won't agree. Players get benched or pushed down the lineup.

I also don't think players should be "held accountable" for their insanely low shooting % when they are still generating chances and driving play, a good way to kick a player when they are down.

Bench players when there is a lack of effort or aren't following a system.

I'm suggesting hockey trades are possible in today's NHL, as the Calgary/Florida trade demonstrated.

I guess I didn't make that 100% crystal clear?

If Dubas made that trade this whole board would be complaining that in 3 years we will have to trade picks to unload those contracts...

Calgary got value for a few seasons and they mortgaged their future.

Florida mortgaged their future last season for 4 wins.

Would prefer if our GM doesn't try to replicate either team's trading strategy

 

[egd27]

Babcock held players accountable, what was the excuse there?

The players could go to mom (Kyle) when they didn't like what dad was making them do.

 

[therealkoho]

Too early.

But sign me up all day long, every day of the week. You’ll never convince me in a million years he isn’t an upgrade, and that’s the only thing that should matter. Lucky he’s out there potentially.

Then it really isn't too early

is it?

 

[therealkoho]

View attachment 595392

Look at how absolute atrocious this history is.. Give keefe 20+ seasons and maybe he can win one time like Trotz did. All world and all average.

Can you imagine the outrage around here when Trotz has .646/.671/.610 type winning percentages and loses in the 1st round??

Those Predator teams that were getting bounced in the 1st round really had a problem putting the puck in the net, but what they were, was a highly disciplined, tight checking physical bunch who limited chances, and had average goaltending

What they weren't was a high flying bunch like the Caps. Who didn't bother to keep their own end tidy and had above average goaltending that faced a ton of shots . Those teams were great but when you had Alex and Nick playing @26 minutes a night, and providing lot's of hilight reel offense but virtually no defence and speaking of defence Green Light Mike Green, a very green John Carlson, Matty Niskanen and hit or miss Karl Alzner as your top 4, a bunch of pretty good guys but way better offensively than minding their own end.

Once Trots convinced his big boys to play disciplined hockey, got the defence to protect the crease(something the Leafs really haven't done since Pat Quinns day) and no more freelancing the Capitals became a champion.

Maybe he can get the Leafs to play a more discipled style, I like some of Keefes schemes I really do, but for some reason the players aren't sticking to the script, so it's either him or them. The D as mentioned above look like they afraid of catching a disease if they go near the crease. The Leafs do hit but with no authority nor any real frequency, so many times I've seen guys just shun a hit that could have created a turnover or a change of momentum. If the opposition figures you're only going to throw checks 30% of the time, they'll take chances they wouldn't normally take. It doesn't have to be blowing up the opponent type of check every time, but you have to continually lean on your opponent, ride them into the boards cross-check them in board battles and when you can catch them with their head down you do it. The opponent has to believe that any game against you if going to hurt sooner rather than never.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Once Trots convinced his big boys to play disciplined hockey, got the defence to protect the crease(something the Leafs really haven't done since Pat Quinns day) and no more freelancing the Capitals became a champion.

Washington put up the 3rd worst defensive results in the league in 2017-2018, and they allowed the 2nd most high danger chances.

 

[DarkKnight]

So Keefe was f bombing the team and getting angry again at practice yesterday. He and Dubas are acting like guys under a lot of stress, sure seems like it’s ”short leash” time.

 

[ITM]

So Keefe was f bombing the team and getting angry again at practice yesterday. He and Dubas are acting like guys under a lot of stress, sure seems like it’s ”short leash” time.

Good. Hopefully there's a sense of this being a watershed moment for everyone.

A trade right now might be of timely impact , especially given Muzzin's absence.

Wonder how this is going to resonate with some of our more...sensitive players.

 

[ITM]

Those Predator teams that were getting bounced in the 1st round really had a problem putting the puck in the net, but what they were, was a highly disciplined, tight checking physical bunch who limited chances, and had average goaltending

What they weren't was a high flying bunch like the Caps. Who didn't bother to keep their own end tidy and had above average goaltending that faced a ton of shots . Those teams were great but when you had Alex and Nick playing @26 minutes a night, and providing lot's of hilight reel offense but virtually no defence and speaking of defence Green Light Mike Green, a very green John Carlson, Matty Niskanen and hit or miss Karl Alzner as your top 4, a bunch of pretty good guys but way better offensively than minding their own end.

Once Trots convinced his big boys to play disciplined hockey, got the defence to protect the crease(something the Leafs really haven't done since Pat Quinns day) and no more freelancing the Capitals became a champion.

Maybe he can get the Leafs to play a more discipled style, I like some of Keefes schemes I really do, but for some reason the players aren't sticking to the script, so it's either him or them. The D as mentioned above look like they afraid of catching a disease if they go near the crease. The Leafs do hit but with no authority nor any real frequency, so many times I've seen guys just shun a hit that could have created a turnover or a change of momentum. If the opposition figures you're only going to throw checks 30% of the time, they'll take chances they wouldn't normally take. It doesn't have to be blowing up the opponent type of check every time, but you have to continually lean on your opponent, ride them into the boards cross-check them in board battles and when you can catch them with their head down you do it. The opponent has to believe that any game against you if going to hurt sooner rather than never.

Our defense core stature doesn't exactly convey that threat. I think if we get a few big bruising bodies on our blue line, it does a lot to send out that message out.

Point well made on crease clearing/protection.

Need it on the wings as well. Clear lanes and into the dirty areas.

Why it's almost most like success in the game depends on that design.

 

[egd27]

Solid contribution like usual.

Didn't understand the metaphoric answer to your question? Ok, I'll explain it.

Once Dubas became GM, the players knew that there was a kind, nurturing individual they could run to when the mean old coach was expecting them to do things they didn't want to. As a result, they managed to bypass the accountability that the previous coach was trying instill and eventually tuned him out completely. Which was fine with Dubas because he wanted to work with his BFF because he knew that he could control him much more easily.

So he was able to make the coach look like the "bad guy" and get rid of him with little consequence.

Hopefully that makes it a little easier for you.

 

[Stephen]

The Flames/Panthers just blew a huge hole in the theory that "you won't get full value" in a Matthews/Marner/Nylander trade.

Turns out you just need a competent GM to make that trade.

Jury is still out whether we have one of those..

Gotta give credit to Treliving for being backed into a corner and wheeling and dealing his way out of a quagmire.

 

[Dreakmur]

Babcock held players accountable, what was the excuse there?

His boss undercut him.

I think Keefe does too, but you probably won't agree. Players get benched or pushed down the lineup.

When has he ever held Matthews or Marner accountable? Holding Matthews accountable by benching Engvall seems like an odd strategy.

I also don't think players should be "held accountable" for their insanely low shooting % when they are still generating chances and driving play, a good way to kick a player when they are down.

You hold them accountable for the things they can control.

Bench players when there is a lack of effort or aren't following a system.

If they’re following the system, Keefe should be fired to having a lame system… and if they aren’t, he should be fired for that too.

 

[Stephen]

Our defense core stature doesn't exactly convey that threat. I think if we get a few big bruising bodies on our blue line, it does a lot to send out that message out.

Point well made on crease clearing/protection.

Need it on the wings as well. Clear lanes and into the dirty areas.

Why it's almost most like success in the game depends on that design.

If I can think of one small coaching tweak that might produce a more robust Toronto team, it’s to emphasize playing the majority of the game between the dots. Save the outer lane for escapability and dump ins but if you’re going to carry the puck anywhere or defend any part of the ice, do it between the dots.

Cut down on inflated zone times cycling the perimeter, get to higher danger areas and have space to escape to.

 

[Stephen]

His boss undercut him.



When has he ever held Matthews or Marner accountable? Holding Matthews accountable by benching Engvall seems like an odd strategy.



You hold them accountable for the things they can control.



If they’re following the system, Keefe should be fired to having a lame system… and if they aren’t, he should be fired for that too.

Keefe’s transition game looks like Rafalski to Lidstrom springs Bure for a breakaway at least 5 times a period.

 

[notbias]

Didn't understand the metaphoric answer to your question? Ok, I'll explain it.

Once Dubas became GM, the players knew that there was a kind, nurturing individual they could run to when the mean old coach was expecting them to do things they didn't want to. As a result, they managed to bypass the accountability that the previous coach was trying instill and eventually tuned him out completely. Which was fine with Dubas because he wanted to work with his BFF because he knew that he could control him much more easily.

So he was able to make the coach look like the "bad guy" and get rid of him with little consequence.

Hopefully that makes it a little easier for you.

Well, this is an insane rant that is all opinion and no fact.

His boss undercut him.



When has he ever held Matthews or Marner accountable? Holding Matthews accountable by benching Engvall seems like an odd strategy.



You hold them accountable for the things they can control.



If they’re following the system, Keefe should be fired to having a lame system… and if they aren’t, he should be fired for that too.

His boss undercut him? Source?

Engvall has been trash, just because the points aren't racking up for Matthews/Marner doesn't mean they aren't playing well.

What is the issue with the things they can control?

They have no been playing well, I agree, but Matthews' line is out chancing the other team by a fair bit, one of the best play driving lines in the league.

 

[egd27]

Well, this is an insane rant that is all opinion and no fact.

Yea, it's opinion, but far from insane.

 

[DarkKnight]

Good. Hopefully there's a sense of this being a watershed moment for everyone.

A trade right now might be of timely impact , especially given Muzzin's absence.

Wonder how this is going to resonate with some of our more...sensitive players.

He was doing the same thing day two of training camp. They’re tuning him out.

 

[Morbo]

The Flames/Panthers just blew a huge hole in the theory that "you won't get full value" in a Matthews/Marner/Nylander trade.

Turns out you just need a competent GM to make that trade.

Jury is still out whether we have one of those..

riiiiight

 

[Dekes For Days]

Once Dubas became GM, the players knew that there was a kind, nurturing individual they could run to when the mean old coach was expecting them to do things they didn't want to. As a result, they managed to bypass the accountability that the previous coach was trying instill and eventually tuned him out completely. Which was fine with Dubas because he wanted to work with his BFF because he knew that he could control him much more easily.

So he was able to make the coach look like the "bad guy" and get rid of him with little consequence.

Man, the fictional stories some people come up with...

 

[therealkoho]

Good. Hopefully there's a sense of this being a watershed moment for everyone.

A trade right now might be of timely impact , especially given Muzzin's absence.

Wonder how this is going to resonate with some of our more...sensitive players.

Trades, they cannot afford squandering any more picks, if they do they might as well fire the amateur scouting department

 

[therealkoho]

Gotta give credit to Treliving for being backed into a corner and wheeling and dealing his way out of a quagmire.

Trelivings problems were totally created by the players. The Dubas quagmire is his own doing, and I believe it's going to get much worse July 1st 2024 for whomever is sitting in the GMs chair.