Tim Stutzle vs Auston Matthews Contracts Included

[The90]

You literally asked why they didn't get credit for signings, but get flack for losing those same players. You're reply suggest I was being negative, when all I did was point out a fact that's well known. It was a neutral statement taken negatively.



I literally never said anything negative about the signings. You're just whining because you got lost in a simple discussion. Lol

How is that even petty? It's literally a commonly known fact that the Leafs are always looking for 'value' signings because they have no cap left.

You're just one of those fans that thinks anything and everything that isn't pure praise is negative and an attack on your beloved team. lol



Until this single year, the Sens haven't had cap issues to sign anyone. They literally signed Giroux, Tarasenko, and Korpisalo in the last year and a bit. All of them were coveted UFAs several team were interested in.

The only notable UFA the Leafs have signed in the last 5 years is Bertuzzi. Everyone else has barely garnered interest around the league. Many of them have been well past their prime guys like Thornton, Spezza, Simmonds. All while losing guys like Bunting, Mikheyev, and Hyman as cap casualties.

It's honestly weird that you're even trying to compare the well documented Leafs cap troubles, to a Sens team that's had cap space for years up until a few months ago.

Yes, Bunting was a bargain bin contract. It literally proves my point that the Leafs have had to go out and find those contracts because they've had no other choice.

Somehow you and a few others have turned that into a negative thing for no reason at all.



I stated a very well known fact which is the Leafs have had to spend the little cap space they've had for years - on bargain bin contracts. That seemed to upset you for some reason. lol

Now you've resorted to bringing up the Sens situation as some strange defence that's completely unrelated to a fact you're attempting to dismiss/deflect.

No one is arguing anything. You're just mad because you don't like what I said. lol

Oh I’m fine with you being critical of it, but let’s not pretend like the bolded isn’t tongue in cheek negativity. Blah blah blah the leafs in cap hell, bargain signings, etc etc. but at the end of the day they could and they did. They managed the cap exactly how they needed to and squeezed everyone in to 111 and 114 point teams. No matter how you slice it, those are very good teams.

The very first year the sens were against the cap, they botched it and couldn’t sign their 3c. The gambling nonsense came out later even if NyQuil wants to pretend it was pre determined before July When they used Pinto’s money to sign Tarasenko.

We can’t pretend one side has some massive problem, when your own problem is far worse.

 

[NyQuil]

Oh I’m fine with you being critical of it, but let’s not pretend like the bolded isn’t tongue in cheek negativity. Blah blah blah the leafs in cap hell, bargain signings, etc etc. but at the end of the day they could and they did. They managed the cap exactly how they needed to and squeezed everyone in to 111 and 114 point teams. No matter how you slice it, those are very good teams.

We can’t pretend one side has some massive problem, when your own problem is far worse.

Far worse?

This is the first time the Senators have been in cap trouble since 2006-2007, the very first year of the cap, and it will be cleared by the next off-season.

I guess if your standard is to finish better than the Senators, or to win 1 round in the post-season since 2004, you can start thumping your chest.

But let's not pretend that we here in this thread are the only people discussing whether the Leafs have been managing the cap well this whole time.

Is this the first time that anyone has ever brought up the Core 4 and how much of the cap their contracts take up?

I find it hilarious how so many Leaf fans say one thing on their own board and pretend something completely different on the main boards.

 

[The90]

Far worse?

This is the first time the Senators have been in cap trouble since 2006-2007, the very first year of the cap, and it will be cleared by the next off-season.

I guess if your standard is to finish better than the Senators, or to win 1 round in the post-season since 2004, you can start thumping your chest.

But let's not pretend that we here in this thread are the only people discussing whether the Leafs have been managing the cap well this whole time.

Is this the first time that anyone has ever brought up the Core 4 and how much of the cap their contracts take up?

I find it hilarious how so many Leaf fans say one thing on their own board and pretend something completely different on the main boards.

I haven’t said one thing on the leafs board and came here to say another. I’ve said, despite not having cap space, they’ve done an exceptional job getting value out of league minimum deals and have been able to put together really strong teams as a result. Aka the 111 and 114 point teams reference. Meanwhile, the sens, with the cap space (as you say) have not been able to do so, and have dumped in their pants the first chance they got signing Tarasenko and not being able to sign pinto.

You have the first year the sens are completely up against it, and they botched it. The leafs have done that for years and squeezed by with good teams. Sure, ultimately they haven’t gotten it done, but don’t throw rocks when you live in a glass house. It’s not that I don’t think you have a valid point, it’s that I think your point is moot when you’re trying to highbrow the leafs when you don’t even have the space to sign pinto when his suspension is up lol

 

[Sensatauro]

Oh I’m fine with you being critical of it, but let’s not pretend like the bolded isn’t tongue in cheek negativity. Blah blah blah the leafs in cap hell, bargain signings, etc etc. but at the end of the day they could and they did. They managed the cap exactly how they needed to and squeezed everyone in to 111 and 114 point teams. No matter how you slice it, those are very good teams.

The very first year the sens were against the cap, they botched it and couldn’t sign their 3c. The gambling nonsense came out later even if NyQuil wants to pretend it was pre determined before July When they used Pinto’s money to sign Tarasenko.

We can’t pretend one side has some massive problem, when your own problem is far worse.

You need to go ask your English teacher for lessons on reading comprehension. You have created narratives that didn't at all fit with what he was saying to what you wanted him to be saying.

Extremely childish behavior. It's one thing to not like the narrative someone says but you are somehow trying to spin his narrative into things he didn't say to try and slam the sens and make you feel smarter. You're not(in relation to this point and topic) but you do you bud

 

[Sens9292]

Matthews is a two way center?

It’s a subject that Toronto sports media and Toronto fans are trying to push hard, it’s false but they try.

 

[Sens9292]

Ottawa is on pace to miss the playoffs AGAIN, despite the summer of Dorion 2.0.

Stutzle, stud 1C
Sanderson, Norris conversation
Tkachuk, unicorn power forward
Too many other 1Ds to count
Look at the depth they have! Giroux is PPG.

Honestly, Leafs suck this year (thanks Brad), but it is an anomaly, this is just the norm for Ottawa.

It is amazing that fans can keep posting how great their team is but they always suck.

And Toronto has two Hart front runners, an elite winger, elite D (Rielly lol) and a young vezina contender yet here we are. Both Ottawa and Toronto haven’t won squat

 

[Xspyrit]

My stat of the day

Tim Stutzle has a 1.06 PPG (29th best in the NHL) since he turned 20 y/o, he's not even 22 now

Tim Stutzle has a 1.28 PPG (12th best in the NHL) since he turned 21 y/o, he's not even 22 now

 

[The90]

You need to go ask your English teacher for lessons on reading comprehension. You have created narratives that didn't at all fit with what he was saying to what you wanted him to be saying.

Extremely childish behavior. It's one thing to not like the narrative someone says but you are somehow trying to spin his narrative into things he didn't say to try and slam the sens and make you feel smarter. You're not(in relation to this point and topic) but you do you bud

Sucks when you can’t refute the contents of someone’s post, huh?

 

[Sensatauro]

Sucks when you can’t refute the contents of someone’s post, huh?

Yeah bud, that's totally it. You're so smart.

 

[The90]

Yeah bud, that's totally it. You're so smart.

Well no, I’m not, but what I said was correct. Feel free to prove otherwise.

You’re taking exception that I said don’t throw rocks from glass houses when the sens can’t even sign their 3c. Truth sucks sometimes.

 

[Sensatauro]

Well no, I’m not, but what I said was correct. Feel free to prove otherwise.

You’re taking exception that I said don’t throw rocks from glass houses when the sens can’t even sign their 3c. Truth sucks sometimes.

No. You think you know the answer and you put out your minds delusion. Pinto has said that he thanks dorion for not airing his issues out which prevented a contract being signed. But you keep pushing your cool narratives bro. Your nonsense is just that.

Pinto was in town and people assumed it was for contract signing purposes. He was actually in town on the investigation and once they had the punishment discussions he was told to to go home. But it looks like Dorion was the issue publically. But that isn't, nor was the actual issue that kept Pinto from being signed. In fact Dorion was aware of the incoming suspension and signed players he wouldn't have had the issue of Pinto not been an issue. I know that's tough for you to understand.

But that's the last second I will invest into your nonsense.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Well no, I’m not, but what I said was correct. Feel free to prove otherwise.

You’re taking exception that I said don’t throw rocks from glass houses when the sens can’t even sign their 3c. Truth sucks sometimes.

You literally whined about something you made up entirely, and got called out for it. Now you're using the Sens not having their 3C as a way to defend your childish behaviour.

Your recent posts in this thread are a great example of a famous Bill Murray quote about arguing.

 

[The90]

You literally whined about something you made up entirely, and got called out for it. Now you're using the Sens not having their 3C as a way to defend your childish behaviour.

Your recent posts in this thread are a great example of a famous Bill Murray quote about arguing.

I didn’t whine. I called out your hypocrisy and you guys didn’t like it. What’s the point of cap space if you’re going to mismanage it?

 

[KevinRedkey]

I didn’t whine. I called out your hypocrisy and you guys didn’t like it. What’s the point of cap space if you’re going to mismanage it?

The quote you whined about:
Leafs fans have gotten use to 'bargain bin' shopping because their top players eat up so much of the cap. It's their reality, but their mistake is believing it applies to everyone else.

You somehow turned that into "the sens can’t even sign their 3c. Truth sucks sometimes"

You're delusional. lol

 

[The90]

The quote you whined about:
Leafs fans have gotten use to 'bargain bin' shopping because their top players eat up so much of the cap. It's their reality, but their mistake is believing it applies to everyone else.

You somehow turned that into "the sens can’t even sign their 3c. Truth sucks sometimes"

You're delusional. lol

Yes. That’s exactly it. You’re a hypocrite. A team can’t sign their 3c, and yet are lecturing leaf fans, coming off 114 point and 111 point ‘bargain bin’ player seasons. That’s good logic.

It must be frustrating having your provincial rival able to sign good depth pieces on ‘prove it’ contracts that they can cash in later. The leafs are in a unique position to be able to do that. Michael Bunting, Justin Holl and Ilya Mikheyev aren’t getting the contracts they just got without the spotlight of Toronto. Schenn just got 2.75. The list goes on and on. The leafs reality and the sens reality aren’t the same things.

 

[Xspyrit]

Good luck making him understand that the reason Pinto isn't signed isn't because "they can't sign him" lol

 

[Xspyrit]

Yes I know….that was my comment to the one that suggested pace and averages doesn’t make sense…..what is the alternative then? Looking at raw points is dumb at this point

There's absolutely no problem looking at paces, the problem is more when people do it the DUMB way, like looking at career averages comparing a 26 y/o and a 21 y/o... extremely DUMB.

I get that....but people were trying to compare players rather than a specific point in time. I honestly haven't read through all of this as I haven't been interested enough....but Stutzle seems to have been lauded for his season last year (78 games, 39 goals and 90 points) and Matthews crapped on for his season (74 games, 40 goals and 85 points). Seems odd....I get Matthews is more experienced and makes more money.

If you just look at raw stats for the years both have been in the NHL (Stutzle - 223 games, 71 goals, 194pts, Matthews - 214 games, 154 goals, 276pts).

For example, that would be a DUMB way to look at stats... you're comparing 19-21 y/o seasons to 23-25 y/o seasons? Like really?

I'm honestly not trying to make any arguments here, I try my very best to avoid the discussions starting with "cap hit considered" because I just hate that....I look at who I think is the better player...that can be subjective enough to begin with. For me, Matthews has clearly been the better player, last year wasn't great, but effectively on par with Stutzle's year. Stutzle will likely continue to improve, etc.....but I'm not in a position to say much at this point....anything is possible (he could blow Matthews away in the next few years, who knows).

You're in the wrong thread then... I mean, start a poll WITHOUT contracts considered if you need positive affirmation...

This forum really is dumber than a sack of hammers at times.

Matthews. Obviously Matthews.

Note that Stutzle was still on his ELC last season so I'll use his current AAV but even then :

2022-23 : TS 92,777.77$ per point; AM 136,944.12$ per point
2023-24 : TS 491,176.47$ per point; AM 612,644.74$ per point (AM has 2 more points in 2 more games)

The poster who claims "This forum really is dumber than a sack of hammers" : "I'll take the significantly higher cost per point player!"

 

[Xspyrit]

LMAO! And the Sens don't shop in the bargain bin? Christ...

Dorion was a really bad GM for many reasons but are Claude Giroux, Vladimir Tarasenko and Joonas Korpisalo part of that bargain bin?

It’s rich getting petty comment from sens fans when the leafs have been a far better team, while also being able to sign their 3c. The sens can’t say the same

Leafs :

2005-06 to 2015-16 : 10 seasons, 1 playoff (that legendary 3rd period choke vs Boston) : rebuilding years (draft Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Rielly, etc)
2016-17 to 2022-23 : 7 seasons, 6 playoffs, 1 round won

Sens :

2017-18 to 2022-23 : 6 seasons, 0 playoff, scorched earth rebuild (100% players gone)
2023-24 to ???????? : unknown

Do you even understand cycles?

Friedman came out and said that Pinto was grateful to Dorion for not going public with the investigation and basically taking the slings and arrows for not signing him when the truth was related to the gambling situation.

I guess the counter argument would be : what does the reality have anything to do with that? The idiocracy prophecy is realizing itself right in front of our eyes.

Of course a GM in that situation should have gone to the medias "listen, Shane Pinto is facing a big suspension for gambling violations, we're not sure of the outcome yet so the signing is pending. If there's no suspension then no problem. All that said, anyone wants to give me a really solid offer in case I want to trade him?"

 

[The90]

Dorion was a really bad GM for many reasons but are Claude Giroux, Vladimir Tarasenko and Joonas Korpisalo part of that bargain bin?



Leafs :

2005-06 to 2015-16 : 10 seasons, 1 playoff (that legendary 3rd period choke vs Boston) : rebuilding years (draft Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Rielly, etc)
2016-17 to 2022-23 : 7 seasons, 6 playoffs, 1 round won

Sens :

2017-18 to 2022-23 : 6 seasons, 0 playoff, scorched earth rebuild (100% players gone)
2023-24 to ???????? : unknown

Do you even understand cycles?



I guess the counter argument would be : what does the reality have anything to do with that? The idiocracy prophecy is realizing itself right in front of our eyes.

Of course a GM in that situation should have gone to the medias "listen, Shane Pinto is facing a big suspension for gambling violations, we're not sure of the outcome yet so the signing is pending. If there's no suspension then no problem. All that said, anyone wants to give me a really solid offer in case I want to trade him?"

That’s a nice alternate fact because you can’t argue the content. Nice work

 

[Maple Leaf]

ottawa is always funny

 

[dirtydanglez]

The quote you whined about:
Leafs fans have gotten use to 'bargain bin' shopping because their top players eat up so much of the cap. It's their reality, but their mistake is believing it applies to everyone else.

You somehow turned that into "the sens can’t even sign their 3c. Truth sucks sometimes"

You're delusional. lol

its hypocritical if sens fans can't also acknowledge that their team managed their cap poorly this offseason. they needlessly left themselves no room to sign pinto.

 

[KevinRedkey]

its hypocritical if sens fans can't also acknowledge that their team managed their cap poorly this offseason. they needlessly left themselves no room to sign pinto.

Who exactly is this directed at? Because neither me or any other Sens fan have said anything to oppose that notion in this thread.

One guy took a comment I said completely out of context, and acted like I killed his first born. Now we're talking about the Sens not being able to sign a suspended player - in a thread about Stutzle and Matthews. It's kind of ridiculous at this point.

 

[The90]

Who exactly is this directed at? Because neither me or any other Sens fan have said anything to oppose that notion in this thread.

One guy took a comment I said completely out of context, and acted like I killed his first born. Now we're talking about the Sens not being able to sign a suspended player - in a thread about Stutzle and Matthews. It's kind of ridiculous at this point.

… your entire premise is that Matthews might be better, but cap space. Then, You went on a tangent about it / I called you out on what’s the point of cap space if you’re going to mismanage it. To which you have/ had no answer other than bellyaching.

 

[KevinRedkey]

… your entire premise is that Matthews might be better, but cap space. Then, You went on a tangent about it / I called you out on what’s the point of cap space if you’re going to mismanage it. To which you have/ had no answer other than bellyaching.

I'd rather have Stutzle and Tarasenko than Matthews alone. You having a hard time understanding something as basic as that is not my fault.

As for the "tangent" - you're literally the one that quoted me first. You complained and changed your argument a bunch of times. This is the first time you're even mentioning Matthews to me at all.

You're all over the place bud.

 

[The90]

I'd rather have Stutzle and Tarasenko than Matthews alone. You having a hard time understanding something as basic as that is not my fault.

As for the "tangent" - you're literally the one that quoted me first. You complained and changed your argument a bunch of times. This is the first time you're even mentioning Matthews to me at all.

You're all over the place bud.

Doesn’t matter if you think Tarasenko + Stutzle > Matthews when you literally mismanage the rest of your cap lol. It voids everything. You literally can’t sign your 3c even if you wanted to. NyQuil likes to pretend like it was planned, but even if it was / wasn’t, it’s irrelevant, you still couldn’t sign him lol