Tim Stutzle vs Auston Matthews Contracts Included

[Xspyrit]

I absolutely am doubling down because even though Matthews has the more expensive contract, he’s a WAY better player than Stutzle and will very likely be at any point in their careers once they’re both done playing.

I'll reply using your post :

Stutzle first 220 games : 75 goals 188 points

Matthews first 212 games : 112 goals 205 points

So comparing them at the same age, what justified a 4.52% more use of the cap? That's 3.77 M$ more based on this year's cap

Not responding after this because there’s no point talking to a wall.

To a wall? lol please let me know which of my arguments were lacking in logic or were not factual

No, you're not responding because you realize that what you came up with was non-sensical

In 20+ years non one will care about Stutzle+(Korpisalo/x player) = Matthews in cap space.

OP question was "Which player would you take, contracts included?"

Not "assuming your GM makes a bad use of the additional cap"... And Korpisalo has been playing lights out for the most part by the way

 

[Strangle]

It's been 10 and 12 games for Stutzle and Matthews respectively. One guy is shooting 23% while the other is shooting 6%. I'd be willing to bet those numbers converge over the course of the rest of the year.

Let's broaden the sample to the start of last year:

88gp 41g 101p
86gp 53g 103p

Not a huge difference, especially when you consider who sets up the majority of Matthews' goals.


If there is a cap in a redraft, you'd definitely want to get value for early picks, so as not to constrain yourself in the middle rounds.

Why only broaden the sample by 1 year? Why not broaden it to the start of Stutzle’s career?

What makes 1 year such an arbitrary stopping point for you? Wouldn’t be because going any further than that, or any less than that makes your argument look like absolute dogshit, would it?

No, that couldn’t be it!

 

[leafsfan2point0]

I'll reply using your post :



So comparing them at the same age, what justified a 4.52% more use of the cap? That's 3.77 M$ more based on this year's cap



To a wall? lol please let me know which of my arguments were lacking in logic or were not factual

No, you're not responding because you realize that what you came up with was non-sensical



OP question was "Which player would you take, contracts included?"

Not "assuming your GM makes a bad use of the additional cap"... And Korpisalo has been playing lights out for the most part by the way

We’re going to have to agree to disagree. Imo Matthews is way more valuable including contracts or any other argument brought up. You don’t and that’s fine.

 

[Xspyrit]

We’re going to have to agree to disagree. Imo Matthews is way more valuable including contracts or any other argument brought up. You don’t and that’s fine.

OK, most voters disagree and that's counting the myriad of Leafs fans voting Matthews and those who simply couldn't follow the simple premise stated in the first post of this thread.

People using unbiased logic and reason will compare them at the same ages and decide if they think Matthews can be 60% more valuable

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Not responding after this because there’s no point talking to a wall. I absolutely am doubling down because even though Matthews has the more expensive contract, he’s a WAY better player than Stutzle and will very likely be at any point in their careers once they’re both done playing. In 20+ years non one will care about Stutzle+(Korpisalo/x player) = Matthews in cap space.

How about a scenario like the one the Leafs might find them in?

Stutzle + the extra cap space to re-sign Nylander at the end of the year

Vs.

Matthews and having to let Nylander walk because they don't have the space for his ask

Maybe you still pick Matthews, but the point is the above is a situation where "extra cap space" isn't just "sign bad player X for the cap space" that keeps being presented as the only option.

 

[leafsfan2point0]

How about a scenario like the one the Leafs might find them in?

Stutzle + the extra cap space to re-sign Nylander at the end of the year

Vs.

Matthews and having to let Nylander walk because they don't have the space for his ask

Maybe you still pick Matthews, but the point is the above is a situation where "extra cap space" isn't just "sign bad player X for the cap space" that keeps being presented as the only option.

Yes, I would still pick Matthews. As long as you have a player like him you have a chance to compete. The Leafs will keep Nylander as long as he wants to stay. They will pay his deserved raise by using the space of letting Samsonov/Bertuzzi/any other player walk.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You can try and twist it any way you want, fact is Matthews is just a way more impactful player.

They both started at 19.

Stutzles first 220 games:

75 goals 188 points -49 40.1 F%

Matthews first 212 games:

112 goals 205 points +18 50.6 F%

This was all before Matthews exploded for multiple rockets and an MVP. Stutzle has a long way to go before he even enters the conversation. I’m not sure why you even care so much lol.

Please explain to me how Stutzle's production as a teenager is at all relevant to the player he is today

Why only broaden the sample by 1 year? Why not broaden it to the start of Stutzle’s career?

What makes 1 year such an arbitrary stopping point for you? Wouldn’t be because going any further than that, or any less than that makes your argument look like absolute dogshit, would it?

No, that couldn’t be it!

Please explain to me how Stutzle's production as a teenager is at all relevant to the player he is today

 

[leafsfan2point0]

Please explain to me how Stutzle's production as a teenager is at all relevant to the player he is today


Please explain to me how Stutzle's production as a teenager is at all relevant to the player he is today

Matthews was a better player when they were teenagers, Matthews will be a better player when Stutzle is 26, Matthews will be the better player at the end of both of their careers, and Matthews will be the better player when he’s inducted into the Hall of Fame and Stutzle isn’t.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Matthews was a better player when they were teenagers, Matthews will be a better player when Stutzle is 26, Matthews will be the better player at the end of both of their careers, and Matthews will be the better player when he’s inducted into the Hall of Fame and Stutzle isn’t.

Please explain to me how Stutzle's production as a teenager is at all relevant to the player he is today?

 

[Strangle]

Career averages aren't very relevant, because just because a player became good quicker, doesn't mean he's better now or in the future. It's a bad statistic to use.

Ya you’re right, the most important thing to do is compare a players best season to date with another players worst season to date.

*thumbs up*

 

[Strangle]

OK, most voters disagree and that's counting the myriad of Leafs fans voting Matthews and those who simply couldn't follow the simple premise stated in the first post of this thread.

People using unbiased logic and reason will compare them at the same ages and decide if they think Matthews can be 60% more valuable

The logical fallacy here that most voters are using is determining that cap is the most important thing a player brings to the table.

To these poll voters, no performance can ever be worth a higher cap hit. Because cap > all

And that’s just a bullshit premise.

 

[The90]

How about a scenario like the one the Leafs might find them in?

Stutzle + the extra cap space to re-sign Nylander at the end of the year

Vs.

Matthews and having to let Nylander walk because they don't have the space for his ask

Maybe you still pick Matthews, but the point is the above is a situation where "extra cap space" isn't just "sign bad player X for the cap space" that keeps being presented as the only option.

That pesky cap hell that always comes around for the leafs lol

 

[MCR74]

The logical fallacy here that most voters are using is determining that cap is the most important thing a player brings to the table.

To these poll voters, no performance can ever be worth a higher cap hit. Because cap > all

And that’s just a bullshit premise.

Well said.

What good is saving $5M when your team never makes the post-season?

 

[TheDoldrums]

Finally, since last year :

Pastrnak 0.74 GPG
McDavid 0.73 GPG
Rantanen 0.68 GPG
Draisaitl 0.63 GPG
Matthews 0.62 GPG

Matthews have a very hot start of the season but he has a bit of work still to reclaim the "best goal scorer in the world" title. Some other guys are good at it too.

Congrats on posting a list of guys with fewer Rockets than Matthews. He's ahead of Ovechkin in career GPG at the same point, but sure he's no Mikko Rantanen when it comes to scoring goals I guess. Keep holding onto last year as the only thing that matters, meanwhile he's on pace to make it 3 Rockets in 4 years.

 

[Strangle]

Please explain to me how Stutzle's production as a teenager is at all relevant to the player he is today


Please explain to me how Stutzle's production as a teenager is at all relevant to the player he is today

It’s called a ‘career’

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

It’s called a ‘career’

Okay, I guess Dylan Strome just as good as Tage Thompson. Both guys have averaged 54 points per 82 games throughout their careers.

Boy that sure does make it easy to evaluate players!

 

[Strangle]

Okay, I guess Dylan Strome just as good as Tage Thompson. Both guys have averaged 54 points per 82 games throughout their careers.

Boy that sure does make it easy to evaluate players!

Bro, take a step back for a minute and give this a Birds Eye view.

Your player just had the best season of his career (so far, that’s what a career year means. He could have another career year this year and that would make it his new career year), and you are adamant about comparing that single year and only that single year with another player’s worst career year, where he was injured - and still scored 40g and ppg.

Stutzle is a fine player. Matthews is the best goal scorer in the NHL.

The leafs have 3 players who Stutzle would compare better against than Matthews. Would you take him over Marner (contracts included?). Hmm, that’s an interesting argument to be had.

Would you take Stutzle over Tavares? Ya everyone would do that one.

Nylander? Hm. That’s another tough one, Stutzle makes more than Nylander this year, likely is as good or a little worse than Nylander is.

But Matthews? Matthews.

Stutzle isn’t anywhere near the player matthews is, he will never even come close to what matthews has done.

He could be a Marner comparable, he might be a Nylander comparable. Maybe he ends up better than both those players.

Maybe.

But Matthews is in an entirely different class of player.

No matter how you try to massage the stats, matthews outperformed Stutzle as a rookie, in their first 3 years of their careers, and ended up reaching heights Stutzle will likely never reach.

Matthews already has 13 goals and 18 points, far outpacing his year last year. Stutzle is not living up to the year he had last year.

I’d rather have Matthews at $6m a year more than Stutzle. But right now, he’s only making $3m more.

If you asked me to choose 1 of the two players to start a team with today, contracts included, and I chose Stutzle I’d expect my hockey friends to revoke my fan card.

That would be the stupidest decision anyone could make.

Who is taking Stutzle over Matthews in fantasy? Anyone? If so, they aren’t going to win their pool.

And to prove how little the contracts actually mean, the sens are just as cap strapped as the leafs are and haven’t made the playoffs in forever, and looking like, even with that value Stutzle contract, probably aren’t making it this year either.

So what the sens are doing with that $5m (actually $3m, though) isn’t making their team better. And that would be the only argument for having that cap space, to be able to use it to improve the team.

But alas! The Leafs are a much better team. Weird how that works, huh?

So anyone who takes Stutzle in this poll is just a clown, obviously.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Bro, take a step back for a minute and give this a Birds Eye view.

Your player just had the best season of his career (so far, that’s what a career year means. He could have another career year this year and that would make it his new career year), and you are adamant about comparing that single year and only that single year with another player’s worst career year, where he was injured - and still scored 40g and ppg.

1. He's not my player, I am a devils fan
2. That was nowhere near Matthews worst career year. It was his 3rd highest season in terms of ppg.

Stutzle is a fine player. Matthews is the best goal scorer in the NHL.

The leafs have 3 players who Stutzle would compare better against than Matthews. Would you take him over Marner (contracts included?). Hmm, that’s an interesting argument to be had.

Yes obviously take Stutzle. Younger and much better contract while playing the more importan position.

Would you take Stutzle over Tavares? Ya everyone would do that one.

Nylander? Hm. That’s another tough one, Stutzle makes more than Nylander this year, likely is as good or a little worse than Nylander is.

Jesus christ you're delusional. I like Nylander but he got outscored by a 20 year old Stutzle last year.

But Matthews? Matthews.

Stutzle isn’t anywhere near the player matthews is, he will never even come close to what matthews has done.

He could be a Marner comparable, he might be a Nylander comparable. Maybe he ends up better than both those players.

Maybe.

But Matthews is in an entirely different class of player.

No matter how you try to massage the stats, matthews outperformed Stutzle as a rookie, in their first 3 years of their careers, and ended up reaching heights Stutzle will likely never reach.

Stutzle's 3rd season was better than Matthews' 3rd season. Who cares what they did as teenagers.

Matthews already has 13 goals and 18 points, far outpacing his year last year. Stutzle is not living up to the year he had last year.

We're 4 weeks into the season, dear lord.

I’d rather have Matthews at $6m a year more than Stutzle. But right now, he’s only making $3m more.

If you asked me to choose 1 of the two players to start a team with today, contracts included, and I chose Stutzle I’d expect my hockey friends to revoke my fan card.

That would be the stupidest decision anyone could make.

Who is taking Stutzle over Matthews in fantasy? Anyone? If so, they aren’t going to win their pool.

Since when did this turn into a conversation about fantasy value? Keep standing up those strawmen

And to prove how little the contracts actually mean, the sens are just as cap strapped as the leafs are and haven’t made the playoffs in forever, and looking like, even with that value Stutzle contract, probably aren’t making it this year either.

In no way does that prove anything about the value of contracts.

So what the sens are doing with that $5m (actually $3m, though) isn’t making their team better. And that would be the only argument for having that cap space, to be able to use it to improve the team.

But alas! The Leafs are a much better team. Weird how that works, huh?

Yeah, funny how a team with one of the worst coaches in the league is struggling to win hockey games.

So anyone who takes Stutzle in this poll is just a clown, obviously.

Ok homer.

 

[Strangle]

1. He's not my player, I am a devils fan
2. That was nowhere near Matthews worst career year. It was his 3rd highest season in terms of ppg.


Yes obviously take Stutzle. Younger and much better contract while playing the more importan position.


Jesus christ you're delusional. I like Nylander but he got outscored by a 20 year old Stutzle last year.


Stutzle's 3rd season was better than Matthews' 3rd season. Who cares what they did as teenagers.


We're 4 weeks into the season, dear lord.


Since when did this turn into a conversation about fantasy value? Keep standing up those strawmen

In no way does that prove anything about the value of contracts.

Yeah, funny how a team with one of the worst coaches in the league is struggling to win hockey games.

Ok homer.

Excuses, excuses, cherry picking, excuses

 

[Regal]

Stutzle's 3rd season was better than Matthews' 3rd season. Who cares what they did as teenagers.

That’s debatable. League scoring has gone up since then. Stutzle was in a 3-way tie for 16th in PPG, and was 21st in GPG. Matthews tied for 21st in PPG and tied for 7th in GPG.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

That’s debatable. League scoring has gone up since then. Stutzle was in a 3-way tie for 16th in PPG, and was 21st in GPG. Matthews tied for 21st in PPG and tied for 7th in GPG.

I don't disagree that it's debatable. I think the fact that Stutzle led his team in scoring gives him the edge.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

That pesky cap hell that always comes around for the leafs lol

Leafs already have just under $54 million in cap space spoken for going into next season, and have to either re-sign or replace UFAs in Nylander, Domi and Bertuzzi up front, Brodie, Klingberg and Giordano on defense, and Samsonov in nets. Liljegren also has a RFA contract that needs renewing with a decent raise on the current $1.4 million he's earning.

"Cap hell"? Maybe not. But around $33 million in cap space to fill 7 important positions will be tight if Nylander's asking for anything close to $10 million per year. If Nylander gets his raise, then you'll be replacing Domi and Bertuzzi with two players making $2 million per less. Is that a good idea to be that top heavy up front?

Going into the season, the Leafs only have 2 legitimate NHL defensemen still signed (Rielly and McCabe). Unless you think it's a smart decision to go into the season with two proven NHLers plus Liljegren, and fill the other 3 spots with AHL fodder or washed up 35+ year old vets willing to play for under $1 million, that cap space has to come from somewhere.

 

[The90]

Leafs already have just under $54 million in cap space spoken for going into next season, and have to either re-sign or replace UFAs in Nylander, Domi and Bertuzzi up front, Brodie, Klingberg and Giordano on defense, and Samsonov in nets. Liljegren also has a RFA contract that needs renewing with a decent raise on the current $1.4 million he's earning.

"Cap hell"? Maybe not. But around $33 million in cap space to fill 7 important positions will be tight if Nylander's asking for anything close to $10 million per year. If Nylander gets his raise, then you'll be replacing Domi and Bertuzzi with two players making $2 million per less. Is that a good idea to be that top heavy up front?

Going into the season, the Leafs only have 2 legitimate NHL defensemen still signed (Rielly and McCabe). Unless you think it's a smart decision to go into the season with two proven NHLers plus Liljegren, and fill the other 3 spots with AHL fodder or washed up 35+ year old vets willing to play for under $1 million, that cap space has to come from somewhere.

Honestly, yes a concern. But it’s always been a concern and somehow it always works out. Ironically ottawa was the team that couldn’t sign their third line centre with Stutzle’s contract.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Stutzle read this thread before the game. He's taking it to the Leafs, 1g 2a and just dangling.

Edit: make that 4 points.

 

[hockeyisgud]

Stutzle even ignoring contracts.