Tim Stutzle vs Auston Matthews Contracts Included

[Toby91ca]

Who are you comparing him to? He's one of the very best players in the league today. His comparables should be the likes of Draisaitl, MacKinnon, McDavid, Kucherov....and look at those player's playoff numbers in contrast. It's night and day.

Also - Matthews has a tendency of scoring less (or not at all) the farther a round goes. He was shutout in last 3 games vs Florida last year. If you look at his playoff history, I think this happened a few times.

I don't think Matthews is a terrible playoff performer. He's been ~ok at times, but he needs to do a lot better if Leafs are ever going to contend for an actual cup.

Compared to every player in the league. But if you want to use some of the players you mention. Last playoffs, Matthews went up against Kucherov, scored 5 goals and 9 points in 6 games vs. Kucherov with 1 goal and 6 points and Leafs won.....but Matthews is still the playoff choker and Kucherov is fine....I get he has built in rep from prior years and rightfully so, but I think Matthews take more of the heat for lack of team success. Meaning, if McDavid scored 9 goals and 20 points in 18 games and his team won the cup.....he certainly wouldn't be seen as a playoff choker.

six goals and 11 points is more than Matthews had in any playoff run

also idt small samples are great for the playoffs.. that means they didnt go very far!

Ok, you are saying 6 goals and 11 points in 12 games is better than 5 goals and 11 points in 11 games.....I just don't share the same view I guess.

 

[MCR74]

Matthews is certainly the better regular season player.

But in an elimation playoff game? Better to go with an unknown than a certified proven choker that produces less the bigger the game is.

Matthews is basically a better version of Alexei Yashin. Similar style too.

As opposed to a choker in the regular season? Matthews helps his to get there at least. Stutzle, the supposed better player, can't even do that.

 

[CDJ]

We keep hearing about this magical $5M. Dorion's the GM, so it wouldn't make a lick of difference.

The guy they signed with the extra $5 mill is over a point a game so far….

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Yes, but not by much. I think the percentage makes a difference.

I think everyone agrees McDavid is better than MacKinnon, yet if you put up a poll asking "McDavid at 13 million or MacKinnon at 7 million, everyone will take MacKinnon... Because McDavid isn't 40% better despite him being undoubtedly better.

Would they?

I would take McDavid tbh.

 

[Toby91ca]

Would they?

I would take McDavid tbh.

I agree, hard to say on that one. I suspect most would take McDavid regardless as it's always hard to resist taking the best player....but if you have to pay him $15M and you could get MacKinnon, who isn't as good, but a really good player at $8M, you still have $7M to pay another really good player, so perhaps a better situation......but again, hard to match what McDavid gives you, you can keep adding players with more money, but what does that get you.

Reality is too.....if both players were UFA's today, McDavid gets more money, but it wouldn't be $6-7M more.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

I agree, hard to say on that one. I suspect most would take McDavid regardless as it's always hard to resist taking the best player....but if you have to pay him $15M and you could get MacKinnon, who isn't as good, but a really good player at $8M, you still have $7M to pay another really good player, so perhaps a better situation......but again, hard to match what McDavid gives you, you can keep adding players with more money, but what does that get you.

Reality is too.....if both players were UFA's today, McDavid gets more money, but it wouldn't be $6-7M more.

I honestly still take McDavid. He's just that good. I think the gap between him and the next best player is larger than the gap between Matthews and Stu.

I'll take McDavid at 15 and AM at 13 both over Stu, though. I just think they bring irreplaceable qualities. I am ok with missing out on a Tarasenko or a Giroux to do it.

Not to mention...I'm a fan and watch all 82 games most seasons...the entertainment value alone makes it worthwhile!

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Compared to every player in the league. But if you want to use some of the players you mention. Last playoffs, Matthews went up against Kucherov, scored 5 goals and 9 points in 6 games vs. Kucherov with 1 goal and 6 points and Leafs won.....but Matthews is still the playoff choker and Kucherov is fine....I get he has built in rep from prior years and rightfully so, but I think Matthews take more of the heat for lack of team success. Meaning, if McDavid scored 9 goals and 20 points in 18 games and his team won the cup.....he certainly wouldn't be seen as a playoff choker.


Ok, you are saying 6 goals and 11 points in 12 games is better than 5 goals and 11 points in 11 games.....I just don't share the same view I guess.

its one goal better!!

also that was Jacks first playoffs.. Matthews has had seven chances at it and, being seen as a top-5 player, hes needed to take over once or twice in that timeframe at minimum

while im not like some yelling that Matthews is a playoff choker.. he certainly isnt doing well when he gets there!

just around PPG and first round exits is quite underwhelming for a supposed top-5 player!

 

[Namikaze Minato]

The guy they signed with the extra $5 mill is over a point a game so far….

Great sample size, does that have room for Matthews' 3 goals per game or is that not a factor because its only back to back games?

 

[Xspyrit]

Yes, but not by much. I think the percentage makes a difference.

I think everyone agrees McDavid is better than MacKinnon, yet if you put up a poll asking "McDavid at 13 million or MacKinnon at 7 million, everyone will take MacKinnon... Because McDavid isn't 40% better despite him being undoubtedly better.

I really don't understand how this is such a hard concept to grasp.

That said, McDavid is so above anyone else that this is a difficult example

Also, 12 to 7 is 85% so yeah McDavid is not 85% better than MacKinnon

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

Great sample size, does that have room for Matthews' 3 goals per game or is that not a factor because its only back to back games?

Got em

 

[bobholly39]

Compared to every player in the league. But if you want to use some of the players you mention. Last playoffs, Matthews went up against Kucherov, scored 5 goals and 9 points in 6 games vs. Kucherov with 1 goal and 6 points and Leafs won.....but Matthews is still the playoff choker and Kucherov is fine....I get he has built in rep from prior years and rightfully so, but I think Matthews take more of the heat for lack of team success. Meaning, if McDavid scored 9 goals and 20 points in 18 games and his team won the cup.....he certainly wouldn't be seen as a playoff choker.

I don't really understand the logic of bringing up Kucherov vs Matthews in 2023 playoffs. As you say yourself, it's complete night and day looking at Kucherov's overall playoff record. No comparison.

As for McDavid.....seriously? McDavid was getting non-stop shat on for lack of playoff performances 2 years ago (still gets it some flack today, for no cup). And I'd say for McDavid, criticism for lack of playoff performance were 100% warranted up until 2 years ago.

But McDavid has since had an absolutely fantastic 2022 playoffs, and another great one last year. Still no cup, but playoff performances worthy of his talent.

Matthews at best has been ~ok in some runs. He's yet to be great, let alone specatcular. All of Kucherov/Draisaitl/Mack/McDavid have had spectacular playoff runs. Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin/Kane too, if we look at older generation.

I think Matthews belongs in the conversation for a top 6 player in the league today - but if he does, expectations are higher. And his playoff performances to date leave a lot to be desired.

Sticking to topic at hand - Stutzle has yet to even make playoffs, so obviously no advantage there.

 

[Kegu]

As opposed to a choker in the regular season? Matthews helps his to get there at least. Stutzle, the supposed better player, can't even do that.

Talk about a strawman. Nobody said he was the better player. If thats what you're inferring from the results of this poll im not sure what to tell you.

 

[Toby91ca]

Talk about a strawman. Nobody said he was the better player. If thats what you're inferring from the results of this poll im not sure what to tell you.

Is that true?

 

[Kegu]

Is that true?

I went and re-read through the entire thread and I think one person said they thought Stutzle was better, and even then they conceded that Matthews was the better offensive player while thinking Stutzle was the better all around player. Lots of people saying Stutzle was the better playing in their respective D+3 years but that's not the same thing now is it. Even more people saying that taking contract into account Stutzle would be their choice, again that's not the same thing.
People want to cry about Stutzle winning the poll while completely ignoring the context of thread, all while playing victim. For some posters it seems so black and white.. Either you love Matthews and his contract, or you hate the leafs.

 

[Connor McConnor]

AM is clearly the better player and he will always be. This question involved contracts and as we’ve seen more and more across all sports, if your best player(s) aren’t on below market value contracts, you are at a massive disadvantage that adds up over a full season. That is why Stutzle has this many votes.

 

[34]

AM is clearly the better player and he will always be. This question involved contracts and as we’ve seen more and more across all sports, if your best player(s) aren’t on below market value contracts, you are at a massive disadvantage that adds up over a full season. That is why Stutzle has this many votes.

The reason Stutzle has this many votes is because there are a lot of leafs haters on this board. It is no secret. He is not in the same stratosphere as Auston.

 

[Connor McConnor]

The reason Stutzle has this many votes is because there are a lot of leafs haters on this board. It is no secret. He is not in the same stratosphere as Auston.

Nah contracts make a difference. Some of it is Leaf hate just like any Canadian market, but a lot of it really does come down to the analytical side

 

[34]

Nah contracts make a difference. Some of it is Leaf hate just like any Canadian market, but a lot of it really does come down to the analytical side

The players are not even comparable.

 

[Xspyrit]

I went and re-read through the entire thread and I think one person said they thought Stutzle was better, and even then they conceded that Matthews was the better offensive player while thinking Stutzle was the better all around player. Lots of people saying Stutzle was the better playing in their respective D+3 years but that's not the same thing now is it. Even more people saying that taking contract into account Stutzle would be their choice, again that's not the same thing.

And that person is not even a Sens fan. I guess that should end the witch hunting

People want to cry about Stutzle winning the poll while completely ignoring the context of thread, all while playing victim. For some posters it seems so black and white.. Either you love Matthews and his contract, or you hate the leafs.

Damn that is so true (and annoying)

The reason Stutzle has this many votes is because there are a lot of leafs haters on this board. It is no secret. He is not in the same stratosphere as Auston.

I admit, Stutzle more pts last season as a 20 y/o and same number of points in one less game so far makes it a "no contest". Stutzle has been in 2nd gear though, not dialed in yet.

The players are not even comparable.

No? Even when you take age in consideration?

And the point of this thread (again), has NEVER been to compare them without the contracts...

You should actually be extremely relieved that this thread is not closed already because when you take in consideration that Matthews makes close to 60% more... it should absolutely be closed already and it shows more the opposite bias that you are complaining about.

 

[PainForShane]

The players are not even comparable.

Neither are their contracts

 

[Juxta Position]

I’ll take the better player. When you have to add ‘contracts included’, the square peg you’re trying to shove into a round hole, is still a square peg.

Unlike smaller and less desirable teams/ cities (like Edmonton), the leafs get to offset his cap hit by having depth players actually wanting to play in their city and taking discounts and ‘prove it’ contracts to do that and fill out depth positions. For this reason, the leafs have been able to put up 110+ point seasons without having to play their stars for 28 minutes a night and full 2 minute powerplays because behind them, their depth is trash.

what a stupidly ignorant post.

if everyone is on such bargin contracts why the hell do the leafs have half their cap tied up in 4 players?

or do the discounts only count with the scrub players? To add, is it really a discount when your top players are overpaid by a combined 8+ million?

Nugent-Hopkins last season, 100 point player - 5 million
Zach Hyman last seaon over a point a game player - 5 million
And since you leafs fans love your "on pace for" argument so much, Evander Kane, 40 goal player - 5 million.

Don't give me that "Oilers have to overpay players, and everyone wants to play for Toronto for free!" crap when the Leafs have more contracts that are ridiculous overpays than the Oilers...what's Ryan "I run my mouth, but can't play hockey" Reaves making again?

 

[The90]

what a stupidly ignorant post.

if everyone is on such bargin contracts why the hell do the leafs have half their cap tied up in 4 players?

or do the discounts only count with the scrub players? To add, is it really a discount when your top players are overpaid by a combined 8+ million?

Nugent-Hopkins last season, 100 point player - 5 million
Zach Hyman last seaon over a point a game player - 5 million
And since you leafs fans love your "on pace for" argument so much, Evander Kane, 40 goal player - 5 million.

Don't give me that "Oilers have to overpay players, and everyone wants to play for Toronto for free!" crap when the Leafs have more contracts that are ridiculous overpays than the Oilers...what's Ryan "I run my mouth, but can't play hockey" Reaves making again?

To be fair, I am stupidly ignorant.

Who’s stupidly overpaid for the leafs? I’m sure, gio, spezza, bertuzzi and domi would sign for less to play for your beloved oilers lol

Hey, That’s Ryan, 85% of my contract can be buried in the minors so my cap hit is only 100k, reaves, to you.

 

[leafsfan2point0]

Stutlze is a good player but he’s nowhere near Matthews - including contacts.

 

[Sens9292]

Stutlze is a good player but he’s nowhere near Matthews - including contacts.

Stutzle isn’t that far off. It’s not like we’re comparing Stutzle to McDavid/Makar/Mackinnon/Draisaitl

 

[Xspyrit]

Stutlze is a good player but he’s nowhere near Matthews - including contacts.

So what makes you say he is 60% better?